US auto industry gets a kick in the groin from Barak - speaking at their doorstep

[Vic]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
When will that be? When it's all gone anyway? The money isn't in looking for a better alternative, thats why it isn't really being done all that vigorously. Pretty short-sighted of most people but that's the way it is.

It'll never be all gone. That argument is ridiculous. There's still more in the ground in known reserves right now that has ever been pumped out in almost 150 years of drilling. On top of that, there are still centuries of coal in the ground in the US alone.
There is a ton of money in alternative research. Whoever figures this out first will be the richest people who ever walked the earth. All the big corps, from GM to BP to ConAgra to GE to Warren Buffet, are heavily invested in alternative research.
The problem is not "short-sighted"ness, it's a double-edged sword of oil still being relatively cheap, and alternatives still being mostly unfeasible. However, as oil becomes more expensive, alternatives will eventually become more feasible.
For the time being, I predict the trend is heading to more efficient diesel, with hydrogen fuel-cell electric becoming fully developed within our lifetimes. Patience, grasshopper, patience. It's not just having the new technology, yaknow. You have to get everyone in the world to buy a brand new car too.

 

[Ktulu]

Originally posted by: vi_edit

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: sandorski
Evolution at work.

European/Japanese Automakers perfected smaller vehicles out of necessity. Now circumstances favour smaller vehicles over larger ones. Those(US Automakers) without the need never bothered, now people don't want their larger vehicles.

This has been happening since the 1970's and didn't happen overnight. So it's not like the US automakers were unaware of what was going down.

You know that the US automakers do make quality smaller vehicles, right? Ones that happen to be very popular abroad? This really isn't the '70s, it's just some people are still stuck in that groove. Now go buy yourself a Mazda3 and tell yourself that it isn't a Ford Focus. 😛

Doesn't really matter. The Foreign Automakers have full lineups of smaller vehicles. The US Automakers got a few "me too" smaller vehicles.

No. The US automakers have a full lineup of small vehicles. Seriously. Take off the blinders. GM has the Aveo and Ford is likely to bring the Fiesta back to the USDM (they never stopped selling it abroad) with the next generation.

And nobody has sold a 40+ mpg gasoline-only car in the US since the early 90's. Nobody. Well... unless you want to count the Smart car that just recently came stateside, and Chrysler is selling that.

So the Civic's 40MPG(highway) doesn't count?

Or the 2000 Saturn SL which got 40 mpg on the highway as well. Oh sorry it's a domestic so that can't be possible.

 

[JDub02]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Personally, I think that a $3 tax/gallon should be implemented. Shove everything into alt fuel research and fusion research superfunds. SUV usage would drop like a rock.

And the poor wouldn't even be able to afford to ride the bus. WTF.

Ohh, certain exceptions would be made. Provided your vehicle was used for commercial purposes, verified and tracked. Small businesses would get the benefit also. Sure, it'd increase yet another government side, but it'd reduce our dependence pretty fekkin quickly.

Yah, and our economy would drop like a lead balloon. More taxes aren't the solution. I drive 300 miles/week for work. I already pay enough in gas taxes (~$.50/gallon). You just proposed that the government soak up any disposable income that I might have .. income that would allow me to go to the movies, buy a video game, eat out at a restaurant, etc.

What needs to happen is just for the government to stay out of it and let people decide what they want to drive. If someone wants an 8mpg H2, I say great! For me, I like my 22mpg Mazda. Auto makers aren't stupid. They're out to make money and they'll provide what people want. If the consumers are calling for increased fuel economy, they'll get it, regardless of how much gas costs. Auto makers had fuel efficient cars 10 years ago when gas was under $1/gallon and no one was crying about fuel economy, because there was still a consumer demand for it.

 

[JDub02]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: LegendKiller
When will that be? When it's all gone anyway? The money isn't in looking for a better alternative, thats why it isn't really being done all that vigorously. Pretty short-sighted of most people but that's the way it is.

It'll never be all gone. That argument is ridiculous. There's still more in the ground in known reserves right now that has ever been pumped out in almost 150 years of drilling. On top of that, there are still centuries of coal in the ground in the US alone.
There is a ton of money in alternative research. Whoever figures this out first will be the richest people who ever walked the earth. All the big corps, from GM to BP to ConAgra to GE to Warren Buffet, are heavily invested in alternative research.
The problem is not "short-sighted"ness, it's a double-edged sword of oil still being relatively cheap, and alternatives still being mostly unfeasible. However, as oil becomes more expensive, alternatives will eventually become more feasible.
For the time being, I predict the trend is heading to more efficient diesel, with hydrogen fuel-cell electric becoming fully developed within our lifetimes. Patience, grasshopper, patience. It's not just having the new technology, yaknow. You have to get everyone in the world to buy a brand new car too.

:thumbsup:

 

[vi edit]

Originally posted by: Ktulu

Originally posted by: vi_edit

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: sandorski
Evolution at work.

European/Japanese Automakers perfected smaller vehicles out of necessity. Now circumstances favour smaller vehicles over larger ones. Those(US Automakers) without the need never bothered, now people don't want their larger vehicles.

This has been happening since the 1970's and didn't happen overnight. So it's not like the US automakers were unaware of what was going down.

You know that the US automakers do make quality smaller vehicles, right? Ones that happen to be very popular abroad? This really isn't the '70s, it's just some people are still stuck in that groove. Now go buy yourself a Mazda3 and tell yourself that it isn't a Ford Focus. 😛

Doesn't really matter. The Foreign Automakers have full lineups of smaller vehicles. The US Automakers got a few "me too" smaller vehicles.

No. The US automakers have a full lineup of small vehicles. Seriously. Take off the blinders. GM has the Aveo and Ford is likely to bring the Fiesta back to the USDM (they never stopped selling it abroad) with the next generation.

And nobody has sold a 40+ mpg gasoline-only car in the US since the early 90's. Nobody. Well... unless you want to count the Smart car that just recently came stateside, and Chrysler is selling that.

So the Civic's 40MPG(highway) doesn't count?

Or the 2000 Saturn SL which got 40 mpg on the highway as well. Oh sorry it's a domestic so that can't be possible.

Sorry, I was only publishing currently produced cars. The Ion only pulls 32MP. The Aveo isn't much better. My buddy's old escort pulls around 41 on the highway, but Ford doesn't make that anymore.

 

[Ktulu]

Originally posted by: vi_edit

Originally posted by: Ktulu

Originally posted by: vi_edit

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: sandorski
Evolution at work.

European/Japanese Automakers perfected smaller vehicles out of necessity. Now circumstances favour smaller vehicles over larger ones. Those(US Automakers) without the need never bothered, now people don't want their larger vehicles.

This has been happening since the 1970's and didn't happen overnight. So it's not like the US automakers were unaware of what was going down.

You know that the US automakers do make quality smaller vehicles, right? Ones that happen to be very popular abroad? This really isn't the '70s, it's just some people are still stuck in that groove. Now go buy yourself a Mazda3 and tell yourself that it isn't a Ford Focus. 😛

Doesn't really matter. The Foreign Automakers have full lineups of smaller vehicles. The US Automakers got a few "me too" smaller vehicles.

No. The US automakers have a full lineup of small vehicles. Seriously. Take off the blinders. GM has the Aveo and Ford is likely to bring the Fiesta back to the USDM (they never stopped selling it abroad) with the next generation.

And nobody has sold a 40+ mpg gasoline-only car in the US since the early 90's. Nobody. Well... unless you want to count the Smart car that just recently came stateside, and Chrysler is selling that.

So the Civic's 40MPG(highway) doesn't count?

Or the 2000 Saturn SL which got 40 mpg on the highway as well. Oh sorry it's a domestic so that can't be possible.

Sorry, I was only publishing currently produced cars. The Ion only pulls 32MP. The Aveo isn't much better. My buddy's old escort pulls around 41 on the highway, but Ford doesn't make that anymore.

No problem, I was just responding to this statement:

And nobody has sold a 40+ mpg gasoline-only car in the US since the early 90's.

Oh and btw, the Civic and Corolla no longer get 40 mpg hwy under the new EPA standards.

 

[vi edit]

Is there a link to the revised statements?

In my *personal* experience, most economy based cars will easily pull their advertised milage, if not better when driven normally and will be just a little under when you rag them hard. It's SUV's, trucks, and large/heavy sedans that get the crap kicked out of their milage when you hammer that big old V6 or V8 under the hood and try to propel 5000 pounds of vehicle in the shape of a brick into the wind at 80MPH.

In my 4 banger Camry and Mazda 3 I pulled better than listed milage in every tank. In my wife's highlander and my 4x4 truck it takes a small miracle to get close to it under any condition.

 

[Ktulu]

Originally posted by: vi_edit
Is there a link to the revised statements?

In my *personal* experience, most economy based cars will easily pull their advertised milage, if not better when driven normally and will be just a little under when you rag them hard. It's SUV's, trucks, and large/heavy sedans that get the crap kicked out of their milage when you hammer that big old V6 or V8 under the hood and try to propel 5000 pounds of vehicle in the shape of a brick into the wind at 80MPH.

In my 4 banger Camry and Mazda 3 I pulled better than listed milage in every tank. In my wife's highlander and my 4x4 truck it takes a small miracle to get close to it under any condition.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/

On the right hand side there's a "Compare Old and New MPG Ratings" link.

And I agree with you about most cars pulling their advertised rating. I pull a good 23-25 mpg hwy on my 5.3L Silverado (rated at 19) constantly. If you abuse your car economy is gonna suck no matter what it's rated.

 

[Vic]

Meh, I guess there were still a couple of 40 mpg-ers left. Sorry about that, I was just thinking of the old super-mileage cars like the old Honda CRX, etc.

I haven't figured out the need for the new ratings either BTW. I've always gotten close to EPA mileage with all my cars and my foot is far from light. I guess it has more to do with people running their AC most of the year of something like that.

 

[MmmSkyscraper]

P&N P&N P&N

 

[PeeluckyDuckee]

Too many people driving the road like they're on the tracks these days. Just look at rush hour traffic morning and afternoons and you'll see what I mean.

People's lifestyles are on a much faster track than before.

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: MmmSkyscraper
P&N P&N P&N

Well if he went to P&N, he wouldn't be able to just post an article without any comments from himself (ie flamebait).

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Ktulu

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: sandorski
Evolution at work.

European/Japanese Automakers perfected smaller vehicles out of necessity. Now circumstances favour smaller vehicles over larger ones. Those(US Automakers) without the need never bothered, now people don't want their larger vehicles.

This has been happening since the 1970's and didn't happen overnight. So it's not like the US automakers were unaware of what was going down.

You know that the US automakers do make quality smaller vehicles, right? Ones that happen to be very popular abroad? This really isn't the '70s, it's just some people are still stuck in that groove. Now go buy yourself a Mazda3 and tell yourself that it isn't a Ford Focus. 😛

Doesn't really matter. The Foreign Automakers have full lineups of smaller vehicles. The US Automakers got a few "me too" smaller vehicles.

So they're aren't allowed to make small vehicles all of a sudden? They've been making small fuel efficient vehicles for decades. 😕

They can make all they want, no problem there. Problem is they have a bad reputation for making them unlike their Euro/Asian counterparts. Sucks for the US Automakers, but reputation and proven reliability/design sells autos. Bad reputation and past poor reliability/design doesn't sell autos.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Ktulu

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: sandorski
Evolution at work.

European/Japanese Automakers perfected smaller vehicles out of necessity. Now circumstances favour smaller vehicles over larger ones. Those(US Automakers) without the need never bothered, now people don't want their larger vehicles.

This has been happening since the 1970's and didn't happen overnight. So it's not like the US automakers were unaware of what was going down.

You know that the US automakers do make quality smaller vehicles, right? Ones that happen to be very popular abroad? This really isn't the '70s, it's just some people are still stuck in that groove. Now go buy yourself a Mazda3 and tell yourself that it isn't a Ford Focus. 😛

Doesn't really matter. The Foreign Automakers have full lineups of smaller vehicles. The US Automakers got a few "me too" smaller vehicles.

So they're aren't allowed to make small vehicles all of a sudden? They've been making small fuel efficient vehicles for decades. 😕

They can make all they want, no problem there. Problem is they have a bad reputation for making them unlike their Euro/Asian counterparts. Sucks for the US Automakers, but reputation and proven reliability/design sells autos. Bad reputation and past poor reliability/design doesn't sell autos.

Backpedal much? I thought you said they couldn't even build small autos?

 

[wetcat007]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: sandorski
Evolution at work.

European/Japanese Automakers perfected smaller vehicles out of necessity. Now circumstances favour smaller vehicles over larger ones. Those(US Automakers) without the need never bothered, now people don't want their larger vehicles.

This has been happening since the 1970's and didn't happen overnight. So it's not like the US automakers were unaware of what was going down.

You know that the US automakers do make quality smaller vehicles, right? Ones that happen to be very popular abroad? This really isn't the '70s, it's just some people are still stuck in that groove. Now go buy yourself a Mazda3 and tell yourself that it isn't a Ford Focus. 😛

The Mazda 3 is built in Japan, Focus is built in US. Not sure what they share for parts but doesn't the 3 have a bigger engine than the Focus?

Also for whatever reason the European Focus is a much nicer car than the one they sell in the US... I have no idea why.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: wetcat007

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: sandorski
Evolution at work.

European/Japanese Automakers perfected smaller vehicles out of necessity. Now circumstances favour smaller vehicles over larger ones. Those(US Automakers) without the need never bothered, now people don't want their larger vehicles.

This has been happening since the 1970's and didn't happen overnight. So it's not like the US automakers were unaware of what was going down.

You know that the US automakers do make quality smaller vehicles, right? Ones that happen to be very popular abroad? This really isn't the '70s, it's just some people are still stuck in that groove. Now go buy yourself a Mazda3 and tell yourself that it isn't a Ford Focus. 😛

The Mazda 3 is built in Japan, Focus is built in US. Not sure what they share for parts but doesn't the 3 have a bigger engine than the Focus?

Also for whatever reason the European Focus is a much nicer car than the one they sell in the US... I have no idea why.

Because it's a Mazda3. The EuroFocus, Mazda3, Mazda5, and a few Volvo models all share Ford's global C1 platform.

The US Focus will finally migrate over to that new platform in 2010.

edit: they share the same Ford-designed Duratec engines, except Mazda makes a few of their own modifications, particularly to the cylinder head and manifolds.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Ktulu

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: sandorski
Evolution at work.

European/Japanese Automakers perfected smaller vehicles out of necessity. Now circumstances favour smaller vehicles over larger ones. Those(US Automakers) without the need never bothered, now people don't want their larger vehicles.

This has been happening since the 1970's and didn't happen overnight. So it's not like the US automakers were unaware of what was going down.

You know that the US automakers do make quality smaller vehicles, right? Ones that happen to be very popular abroad? This really isn't the '70s, it's just some people are still stuck in that groove. Now go buy yourself a Mazda3 and tell yourself that it isn't a Ford Focus. 😛

Doesn't really matter. The Foreign Automakers have full lineups of smaller vehicles. The US Automakers got a few "me too" smaller vehicles.

So they're aren't allowed to make small vehicles all of a sudden? They've been making small fuel efficient vehicles for decades. 😕

They can make all they want, no problem there. Problem is they have a bad reputation for making them unlike their Euro/Asian counterparts. Sucks for the US Automakers, but reputation and proven reliability/design sells autos. Bad reputation and past poor reliability/design doesn't sell autos.

Backpedal much? I thought you said they couldn't even build small autos?

I never said that.

 

[iamwiz82]

Originally posted by: wetcat007

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: sandorski
Evolution at work.

European/Japanese Automakers perfected smaller vehicles out of necessity. Now circumstances favour smaller vehicles over larger ones. Those(US Automakers) without the need never bothered, now people don't want their larger vehicles.

This has been happening since the 1970's and didn't happen overnight. So it's not like the US automakers were unaware of what was going down.

You know that the US automakers do make quality smaller vehicles, right? Ones that happen to be very popular abroad? This really isn't the '70s, it's just some people are still stuck in that groove. Now go buy yourself a Mazda3 and tell yourself that it isn't a Ford Focus. 😛

The Mazda 3 is built in Japan, Focus is built in US. Not sure what they share for parts but doesn't the 3 have a bigger engine than the Focus?

Also for whatever reason the European Focus is a much nicer car than the one they sell in the US... I have no idea why.

It also starts at $24,000 US and goes all the way up to $35,000 US 😉.

 

[WolverineGator]

The US Auto industry is NUMBER ONE in the WORLD at Losing Money

 

[mercanucaribe]

Originally posted by: iamwiz82

Originally posted by: wetcat007

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: sandorski
Evolution at work.

European/Japanese Automakers perfected smaller vehicles out of necessity. Now circumstances favour smaller vehicles over larger ones. Those(US Automakers) without the need never bothered, now people don't want their larger vehicles.

This has been happening since the 1970's and didn't happen overnight. So it's not like the US automakers were unaware of what was going down.

You know that the US automakers do make quality smaller vehicles, right? Ones that happen to be very popular abroad? This really isn't the '70s, it's just some people are still stuck in that groove. Now go buy yourself a Mazda3 and tell yourself that it isn't a Ford Focus. 😛

The Mazda 3 is built in Japan, Focus is built in US. Not sure what they share for parts but doesn't the 3 have a bigger engine than the Focus?

Also for whatever reason the European Focus is a much nicer car than the one they sell in the US... I have no idea why.

It also starts at $24,000 US and goes all the way up to $35,000 US 😉.

And I'm sure it runs on $8 gas too right?

Someone doesn't know how taxes work!!

 

[43st]

The auto industry is fairly inbred, I'm sure it wouldn't take much to catch up with efficiency and alternative fueled vehicles. Give Detriot R&D the Iraq budget for a month and they'd make a Prius look like a gas hog. 😛

 

[DVK916]

Japanese and Europeans Automakers don't give a crap about the environment, because if they did they wouldn't be sueing the state of california, for wanting more fuel effiecient cars.

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: Random Variable
In reality no auto companies (foreign or domestic) have truly invested in fuel-efficient cars.

I drive a honda civic that gets 39 mpg... although the civics in the 80's got much better gas mileage.