US and EU to Clash at G20 Summit: Who has the right approach?

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Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
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The EU has made up its mind: Fighting the financial crisis with American-style stimulus plans will not be the model for Europe. At a summit in Brussels this week, European leaders are preparing the party line -- and it is to focus on a new financial world order.

Angela Merkel, Gordon Brown and Nicolas Sarkozy may be in Brussels, but they're looking forward to the G-20 summit in London, where in two weeks they expect a showdown over the financial crisis among the most powerful economies in the world -- namely the United States, China and other leading world economies.

Indeed, the so-called "spring summit" of EU leaders in Brussels this week looks more and more like a training camp for the G-20 conference on April 2. The 27 European leaders are using the day-and-a-half meeting in Brussels to cobble together some fundamental positions and negotiating strategies for London. German Chancellor Angela Merkel says she'd like all of Europe to speak with a single voice at the April summit.

Only the four largest EU nations and the Czech Republic -- which currently holds the rotating EU presidency -- will go to London. But they will represent the interests of the whole European bloc. On Thursday evening the EU leaders didn't take long to agree on the two essential messages: Europe doesn't want to see any more stimulus packages, but it does want to lead as a force to reform the world's finance markets.

Both messages will be presented with some defensiveness, since the Europeans aren't sure what to expect from the Americans. In spite of many contacts with the US -- most recently at a meeting of G-20 finance ministers in the English town of Horsham on March 14 -- there is a residue of uncertainty.

Many were irritated by a recent interview in the Financial Times by Obama's economic advisor Larry Summers, who said the top priority of the G-20 summit would be to boost global demand. US Finance Minister Timothy Geithner is also backing the recommendation of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) that all countries should spend 2 percent of their gross domestic product on economic stimulus packages. In European capitals, the statements were seen as an order to pump money into the economy -- which is exactly what they don't want to do.

Since then, the discord has reportedly been smoothed out in face-to-face meetings. All G-20 participants want a successful summit, including the Americans -- at least that's the word in Brussels. So it's unlikely that the Obama government will demand billions in commitments from the Europeans in London.

If Push Comes to Shove

But if push comes to shove, the Europeans will argue that they have already committed 3.3 percent of the bloc's total GDP to pull the economy out of recession. That number includes various national economic stimulus packages that total around ?200 billion, as well as automatic balancing measures of the social state like increases in pensions and unemployment benefits, which account for an additional ?200 billion. In Germany, Chancellor Merkel proudly told her parliament in Berlin on Thursday, that figure is 4.7 percent -- well above average.

The leaders in Brussels also agreed to some additional measures:

-?5 billion will be invested in broadband Internet and energy projects in the first true EU-wide stimulus measure. Germany is expected to foot ?1 billion of the bill -- which is the reason for a German delay in approving it.

-The EU crisis fund for governments in arrears to the Union will be doubled to ?50 billion. This provides relief for mostly Eastern European countries.

-The Europeans also want to strengthen the IMF so it can provide credit to countries suffering from the financial crisis. The EU wants ?250 billion in additional funding to go to the IMF, and Brussels is prepared to provide ?75 billion of that money.

All that, the Europeans will argue, is plenty. Austria's finance minister reflected the mood in Brussels when he asked: "By flooding the market with money -- where does that leave us?" The US government is seen as a bad advisor in financial matters -- the Europeans think its crisis management is suspect. The US central bank's decision to pump $1.3 trillion into the economy has fuelled speculation in Brussels that the Americans have still not entirely put an end to their old fixation on growth. The gigantic figure is being received with a combination of anger and disbelief.

In Search of the Pressing Issues

For weeks the German government has pushed for a "Charter for Sustainable Economic Activity." At its crux lies the principle that countries should not get so indebted that they are unable to recover. For the time being, the Europeans have managed to unite behind this creed. The euro appears disciplined, moreover, with Germany helping in large measure to guarantee its stability.

Europeans are also ready for a debate over regulation. Lord Adair Turner, who chairs the British financial watchdog Financial Services Authority, on Wednesday presented ideas for financial reform. They match many recommendations made last month by former IMF director and French central banker Jacques de Larosiere, at the request of the EU Commission. Both want to see banks retain a higher amount of equity capital, a European-level supervision of bank behavior and expanded hedge-fund regulation.

The regulation of hedge funds and tax havens is German Finance Minister Peer Steinbrück's pet issue. But the Americans remain skeptical: Tax havens and hedge funds are considered token subjects to score points with European voters, rather than ideas to solve the financial system's structural problems.

Nevertheless, the German government is still counting on Obama to join the finance-reform movement at the G20 summit -- not least because the City of London has taken the first step toward more regulation in a damning report released on Thursday by Lord Turner, Chairman of the UK's Financial Services Authority.

"Over the last 18 months," reads the Turner report, "... the world's financial system has gone through its greatest crisis for at least half a century, indeed arguably the greatest crisis in the history of finance capitalism." One reason for the crisis, it argues, is the long-cherished "theory of efficient and rational markets" -- which can no longer be trusted to keep the economy safe, according to Turner.

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I don't know. I'm torn. I'm all for growth. But I think I'm for growth stimulated by real demand and innovation. I think the Euros have a point that going into debt is not an excuse for trying to promote growth. All too often throwing money at something does not solve the problem. Then again, too much regulation arguably isn't the entire answer either.

But I expect to see a bit of a showdown between the EU and Obama & Co. I'm looking forward to it.



 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
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Probably neither one, but if I had to guess I'd say that the European approach sounds more reasonable.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
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Number of people on this forum who can provide an educated opinion: 0
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,396
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The US central bank's decision to pump $1.3 trillion into the economy has fuelled speculation in Brussels that the Americans have still not entirely put an end to their old fixation on growth.
i'm sorry, but growth is the only way to keep up standards of living when there are more people. it also increases the tax base, and thus taxes, without increasing the tax rate. why wouldn't you want to fixate on growth?
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
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Originally posted by: yllus
Number of people on this forum who can provide an educated opinion: 0
Not true. Many of us can give an educated opinion, it just may not be as educated as it should be if we were actually making policy, but of course we can opine on it.

 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
9,002
115
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Originally posted by: ElFenix
The US central bank's decision to pump $1.3 trillion into the economy has fuelled speculation in Brussels that the Americans have still not entirely put an end to their old fixation on growth.
i'm sorry, but growth is the only way to keep up standards of living when there are more people. it also increases the tax base, and thus taxes, without increasing the tax rate. why wouldn't you want to fixate on growth?

When considering this, it is no wonder that the Europeans have a differnent approach. The US by far has a much higher population growth than the EU. The EU can afford to focus entirely on stability, but the US has to focus on stability AND growth just to tread water. I do agree with the Europeans in that we need to fix the inherit problems with the financial markets before we can see growth, but there is no reason we should just ignore trying to grow our economy in favor of this. They are not mutually exclusive approaches.
 

Slew Foot

Lifer
Sep 22, 2005
12,379
96
86
Id trust some people on this board more than I trust the doofuses running the show for the past few years.

 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
81
Originally posted by: ElFenix
The US central bank's decision to pump $1.3 trillion into the economy has fuelled speculation in Brussels that the Americans have still not entirely put an end to their old fixation on growth.
i'm sorry, but growth is the only way to keep up standards of living when there are more people. it also increases the tax base, and thus taxes, without increasing the tax rate. why wouldn't you want to fixate on growth?

Merkel is all for sustainable growth, not the Ponzi scheme that we have seen the last couple of years
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,698
6,257
126
Stimulus and Regulation are both necessary. Seems to me the US has done well at Stimulus, but has been dragging its' feet on Regulation. Perhaps the EU can get them rolling on it.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Originally posted by: freegeeks
Originally posted by: ElFenix
The US central bank's decision to pump $1.3 trillion into the economy has fuelled speculation in Brussels that the Americans have still not entirely put an end to their old fixation on growth.
i'm sorry, but growth is the only way to keep up standards of living when there are more people. it also increases the tax base, and thus taxes, without increasing the tax rate. why wouldn't you want to fixate on growth?

Merkel is all for sustainable growth, not the Ponzi scheme that we have seen the last couple of years
What ponzi scheme?

 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,758
602
126
I thought I read yesterday that the French were already striking and protecting due a preceived lack of action by the government.

I'm not saying their approach is wrong...I'm just wondering if they'll even be able to keep it up.
 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
81
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
I'd be wary of the European plan as just another agenda for them to enslave and colonize the entire world.

Canoshit and you are hilarious
 
Aug 14, 2001
11,061
0
0
Originally posted by: freegeeks
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
I'd be wary of the European plan as just another agenda for them to enslave and colonize the entire world.

Canoshit and you are hilarious

Your ignorance would be amusing if the consequences were not so dire.
 

gallivanter

Member
May 8, 2005
141
0
0
Originally posted by: yllus
Number of people on this forum who can provide an educated opinion: 0

Yep. It is an impossible thing that any reading or posting on this forum have studied, maybe even possessing degrees in, finance or economics.






As for the question, the European approach only works in a vacuum.

It appears that Professor Ferguson was correct when he commented on foregoing the G20, replacing it instead with a G2, allowing Japan and the UK to tag along as well.
 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
81
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Originally posted by: freegeeks
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
I'd be wary of the European plan as just another agenda for them to enslave and colonize the entire world.

Canoshit and you are hilarious

Your ignorance would be amusing if the consequences were not so dire.

stop it, you are killing me!!!!

you and Canoshit should get your own talkshow

I already have a name "We Hate Europe"
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,396
8,559
126
Originally posted by: freegeeks
Originally posted by: ElFenix
The US central bank's decision to pump $1.3 trillion into the economy has fuelled speculation in Brussels that the Americans have still not entirely put an end to their old fixation on growth.
i'm sorry, but growth is the only way to keep up standards of living when there are more people. it also increases the tax base, and thus taxes, without increasing the tax rate. why wouldn't you want to fixate on growth?

Merkel is all for sustainable growth, not the Ponzi scheme that we have seen the last couple of years

growth is growth and what do you mean by sustainable? it's impossible to completely iron out the business cycle.
 
Aug 14, 2001
11,061
0
0
Originally posted by: freegeeks
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Originally posted by: freegeeks
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
I'd be wary of the European plan as just another agenda for them to enslave and colonize the entire world.

Canoshit and you are hilarious

Your ignorance would be amusing if the consequences were not so dire.

stop it, you are killing me!!!!

you and Canoshit should get your own talkshow

I already have a name "We Hate Europe"

I hate European Racism and the European Agenda to rape the world 100 times over time and time again. We are not going to stand by and let Europe rape the planet again.


 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
81
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Originally posted by: freegeeks
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Originally posted by: freegeeks
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
I'd be wary of the European plan as just another agenda for them to enslave and colonize the entire world.

Canoshit and you are hilarious

Your ignorance would be amusing if the consequences were not so dire.

stop it, you are killing me!!!!

you and Canoshit should get your own talkshow

I already have a name "We Hate Europe"

I hate European Racism and the European Agenda to rape the world 100 times over time and time again. We are not going to stand by and let Europe rape the planet again.

LOL, you are such a tough guy.

and what the hell is the European agenda? do you also believe in UFO?
 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
81
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: freegeeks
Originally posted by: ElFenix
The US central bank's decision to pump $1.3 trillion into the economy has fuelled speculation in Brussels that the Americans have still not entirely put an end to their old fixation on growth.
i'm sorry, but growth is the only way to keep up standards of living when there are more people. it also increases the tax base, and thus taxes, without increasing the tax rate. why wouldn't you want to fixate on growth?

Merkel is all for sustainable growth, not the Ponzi scheme that we have seen the last couple of years

growth is growth and what do you mean by sustainable? it's impossible to completely iron out the business cycle.

The Enron, AIG type of growth is proven to be bogus.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
I agree with the European approach. But I believe regulation should be ad hoc, rather than centralized and/or universal.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: yllus
Number of people on this forum who can provide an educated opinion: 0

I don't really agree. There are people who 'can provide an educated opinion' who are quite wrong, and some of those have admitted as much; while there's no reason people in this forum can't offer informed opinion about some of the choices and priorities involved. No one here can comment on topics such as the effects of letting the foxes run the henhouse, and let mechanisms like Credit Default Swaps run rampant and unregulated? Regardless, this is a still a democracy that the people in this forum are part of, so opinions matter.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: Dari
I agree with the European approach. But I believe regulation should be ad hoc, rather than centralized and/or universal.

I've always said the issue comes down to one simple thing:

Whether the people in power are representing the public interest, or the few wealthy.

That one simple question answers what happens, what policies are selected.

It's more important IMO to get the people in power representing the public interest, than for the public to debate the right policies.