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URGENT: What tools for a newbie to create a website?

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Originally posted by: ElDonAntonio
Thanks for all the suggestions guys.

We're getting off topic, but still, as a software developer and ex-webmaster, I don't agree that people should learn HTML / PHP / whatever in depth before starting creating websites. It's our jobs as software developers to create tools that make it as easy for them as possible. We often tend to think of others as stupid for not understanding hardware/software or simple tasks like checking email, but I think the burden is on us to take on humanity's "stupidity" and still offer products and services they can use and enjoy. Apple (and to a lesser extent Nintendo) is the perfect example of a company that gets this point!

Anyways I'm meeting her today, let's hope I don't get too involved in this damn project (I have a darned tendency to say Yes to any project...)

Disagree. In depth knowledge, no. Fundamentals and basics, yes.

Notepad is fun just to say that you coded X or Y in it, but something with a few basic features like a line counter. Not to say that I've ever used a line counter for HTML, but it sure beats manually counting from the top when you hit a compiler snag in anything else. 😉

- M4H
 
I met with her yesterday, and managed to minimize the "damage" 🙂 I'll design her frontpage in Photoshop/Dreamweaver, and the whole rest of the website will be a mix of blogs, forums, and other premade stuff. It's very cool that Blogspot (Blogger) allows you to place Adsense ads in your blog so easily.

She also wants to sell some stuff on her website, I guess I'll hardcode everything and use Paypal.
 
I don't mean to "Hijack" this thread but I am VERY curios to know what is a decent program for a beginner learning HTML by hand. I ask because of all of the negative comments pertaining to notepad.
 
The notepad thing was of course a joke.

You should use some editor that allows you to code by hand and see immediately the results in a wysiwyg window. I think Dreamweaver is the best for that. And it allows you to go the other way around: if you're curious how to (as an example) include an image in HTML, you can use its interface to Insert->Image and set all its parameters, then check out the HTML code it generated.
 
Originally posted by: ElDonAntonio
The notepad thing was of course a joke.

You should use some editor that allows you to code by hand and see immediately the results in a wysiwyg window. I think Dreamweaver is the best for that. And it allows you to go the other way around: if you're curious how to (as an example) include an image in HTML, you can use its interface to Insert->Image and set all its parameters, then check out the HTML code it generated.

Do you know of any free tools that offer that functionality?
 
Nvu, Dreamweaver.

HTML isn't going to get her far, she needs to learn CSS. If she can design, I can code it for her. If she can't do either, I'll do both. I'm better at designing anyway.
 
theTech, others here have suggested NVU, it's free.

Thanks for the proposition sash, it's very appreciated. I think she'll be alright for now with a combination of blogs and forums though.
 
Originally posted by: ElDonAntonio
theTech, others here have suggested NVU, it's free.

Thanks for the proposition sash, it's very appreciated. I think she'll be alright for now with a combination of blogs and forums though.

Thank you for your answer and for being tolerant of me driving your post slightly off-topic.
I also thank everyone for their replies.
 
Originally posted by: Atheus
LOL WFT? I don't know a single programmer who doesn't use some kind of programmer's editor with highlighting... yea sure I might have seen the odd kid use notepad to make his little homepage, but no one with a computer science degree would touch it with a 10 foot pole.

And what do you do, save to a different file name after every alteration? Because otherwise you have no way to undo your changes in notepad... or maybe you just never make a mistake? Again I say - LOL.

Well, now we're talking different stories here. I'm talking web development, but for software development I tend to use IDE's for the integrated compilers. Although, I have absolutely no qualms with editing a cpp source file in notepad and compiling it. Hell, throughout college I wrote files in nedit and compiled them using g++. Is it really that hard to simply not make a mistake? 😛 I mean, if you have even the slightest idea of what you're doing, you're usually fine.

Originally posted by: jjones
I really don't care that you code in notepad, but honestly, you're handicapping yourself by doing so. Multiple undo/redo, tabs, automatic tag closure, search and replace, spellcheck, convert, auto indent; these are just a few of the many useful functions you're doing without that even the most basic of decent code editors will have. It's just silly to be using notepad for anything but the quick fix.

Let's go through these:

Multiple undo/redo - Don't need it. I honestly rarely make a mistake and if I do, I know what I typed before as I only replace something for a reason. Also, if I wish to try out an entirely new function (as an example)... guess what I do... I open a fricken notepad and paste the old function inside. This also allows me to reference the old function if it had numbers or pick apart an output line that I may want.

tabs - Depends. Sometimes I like tabs, sometimes I don't. For web browsing, I enjoy them for the most part, I just wish some browsers would give me the option of breaking tabs off. But for web design... unless I'm editing multiple files (usually just 1-2 at a time), it may not be necessary. Also, I use two monitors while doing anything on my PC, so having more than one instance of an application open for development allows me to put one on each screen (if I want that).

automatic tag closure - Don't need it. I can close my own tags/functions/whatevers.

search and replace - Eh, I get the "replace" functionality in Notepad and I don't end up using it that often. A good programmer will not place a solitary value throughout a program multiple times without setting it to be a constant (depending on how it's used) so changing it is as simple as changing it once.

spellcheck - Don't need it... my proofreading skills are above needing a spell checker for most occasions.

convert - From what to what?

auto indent - I find this to be more troublesome than helpful. I use Dev-C++ and it has a smart auto-indent in it and let me tell you... that feature is soooooo annoying sometimes.

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
Notepad is fun just to say that you coded X or Y in it, but something with a few basic features like a line counter. Not to say that I've ever used a line counter for HTML, but it sure beats manually counting from the top when you hit a compiler snag in anything else. 😉

- M4H

C'mon, Merc, don't be like these people and not realize the POWER of notepad! 😛 Just turn off Word Wrap and hit CTRL+G and type in the line number.

Originally posted by: ElDonAntonio
The notepad thing was of course a joke.

Heh, in the beginning it was. Now I'm staving off the attackers one-by-one! Although it was made as a joke since I wouldn't suggest notepad to a new HTML'er with absolutely 0 coding experience and 0 aspiration to learn how to code. If they wanted to learn, it might be good to actually learn the basics... the only thing I tend to not use notepad for is really complicated table work as I'm way too lazy to do that :laugh:.
 
I still don't know what to think of your post, Aikouka. I want to believe that you are being sarcastic but I can't really tell. I'm just having such a hard time with it because I can't fathom anyone using notepad for anything other than a quick fix or a very small program.

No one is arguing that features available in IDE's or more advanced text editors (PSPad, Jedit, TextPad, etc) are a NECESSITY! We know you don't NEED automatic tag closure, spell check or anything else. However, these are tools of convenience. They weren't developed because anyone just had to have a particular feature in order to move on with their lives. They help people accomplish tasks a little bit quicker.

I'm curious as to what other tools you refuse to use in your day to day activities? Do you drive a car? Does your home have a garage door opener? Do you have a dishwasher? These are all things that aren't NEEDED either but help get some things done just a little bit quicker.

Please don't get me wrong. I don't really care if you want to use notepad to develop or not. Your decision to do so has no bearing on me. The only reason I chimed in to begin with was because I didn't know if you were joking in your original post. It seems that you were joking however and you have some genuine interest in using notepad for your development work which is ok with me.
 
Originally posted by: BigPete
I still don't know what to think of your post, Aikouka. I want to believe that you are being sarcastic but I can't really tell. I'm just having such a hard time with it because I can't fathom anyone using notepad for anything other than a quick fix or a very small program.

No one is arguing that features available in IDE's or more advanced text editors (PSPad, Jedit, TextPad, etc) are a NECESSITY! We know you don't NEED automatic tag closure, spell check or anything else. However, these are tools of convenience. They weren't developed because anyone just had to have a particular feature in order to move on with their lives. They help people accomplish tasks a little bit quicker.

I'm curious as to what other tools you refuse to use in your day to day activities? Do you drive a car? Does your home have a garage door opener? Do you have a dishwasher? These are all things that aren't NEEDED either but help get some things done just a little bit quicker.

Please don't get me wrong. I don't really care if you want to use notepad to develop or not. Your decision to do so has no bearing on me. The only reason I chimed in to begin with was because I didn't know if you were joking in your original post. It seems that you were joking however and you have some genuine interest in using notepad for your development work which is ok with me.

Sry, I had to add my 2 cents(or 1 pence 🙂 )
Not having a car is cool if where you live has decent public transport(parts of Europe)
plus you would be cutting emissions by taking public transport or biking when convenient.
The dishwasher is debatable, but you can cut the electricity usage of it by turning off the heated dry function on it and letting them air dry, also don't use dish detergents like CASCADE! they contain phosphates, use a phosphate free detergent, which will work just fine if you use a rinse aid anyway.

Sorry but just had to add that, not a personal attack towards you Bigpete. Just trying to clarify something.
 
Uhmm, ok, anyone seriously recommending Notepad as an editor for any serious/professional coding project, be it Web or C++, doesn't have any professional experience.

Aikouka, I think you got cornered into defending this lost-cause position and doing you're best at it , but I seriously doubt you really think of Notepad as a good editor, so let's stop the nonsense and stop confusing newbies 🙂
 
Originally posted by: BigPete
I still don't know what to think of your post, Aikouka. I want to believe that you are being sarcastic but I can't really tell. I'm just having such a hard time with it because I can't fathom anyone using notepad for anything other than a quick fix or a very small program.

The original post was designed to be a joke, yes. Hence the remarks about how the EU should be fining Microsoft for including it in Windows. If you believe that I think the EU should be fining Microsoft at all, then you're a bit off-base 😛.

Originally posted by: BigPete
No one is arguing that features available in IDE's or more advanced text editors (PSPad, Jedit, TextPad, etc) are a NECESSITY! We know you don't NEED automatic tag closure, spell check or anything else. However, these are tools of convenience. They weren't developed because anyone just had to have a particular feature in order to move on with their lives. They help people accomplish tasks a little bit quicker.

I just wrote a lengthy post about why I don't like most of these "tools of convenience" that someone mentioned. Also, when I code for my own personal reason, I have my own style that I use (bracket placement, indentation, etc) and configuring editors to do this is always such a pain, that I'd rather manage it myself. They most certainly do not help me finish a task quicker if I have to go and correct the automatic insertion that the editor made or something to that effect.

Originally posted by: BigPete
I'm curious as to what other tools you refuse to use in your day to day activities? Do you drive a car? Does your home have a garage door opener? Do you have a dishwasher? These are all things that aren't NEEDED either but help get some things done just a little bit quicker.

These are all completely different than using a simple text editor vs. an advanced text editor. Please do not attempt to plunge into other areas which do not relate. Driving a car saves me plenty of time, as I have a 30 mile commute (one way) for example. As mentioned above, editors do not always save me time.

Originally posted by: BigPete
Please don't get me wrong. I don't really care if you want to use notepad to develop or not. Your decision to do so has no bearing on me. The only reason I chimed in to begin with was because I didn't know if you were joking in your original post. It seems that you were joking however and you have some genuine interest in using notepad for your development work which is ok with me.

I was joking about the suggestion of notepad for said html-illiterate person. However, I was not joking about my own use of the application. It's quick and easy, I have no issues either pasting an old function into notepad or simply commenting it out. Using those two aforementioned methods, I have absolutely 0 need for things such as multi-undo 😛.

Originally posted by: ElDonAntonio
Uhmm, ok, anyone seriously recommending Notepad as an editor for any serious/professional coding project, be it Web or C++, doesn't have any professional experience.

Aikouka, I think you got cornered into defending this lost-cause position and doing you're best at it , but I seriously doubt you really think of Notepad as a good editor, so let's stop the nonsense and stop confusing newbies 🙂

Now, I take offense to this in great amounts... you make this blanket statement for the pure purpose of demeaning my own professional ability. You can attempt to discredit my abilities all you want as I already know my prowess, but you do not and are simply assuming. You have no idea where I work and what I do, yet you discredit a mere thing such as my methods of editing code as a means to show someone's skill level. That's about as shallow as a puddle in a desert.
 
Originally posted by: Aikouka
Originally posted by: BigPete
I still don't know what to think of your post, Aikouka. I want to believe that you are being sarcastic but I can't really tell. I'm just having such a hard time with it because I can't fathom anyone using notepad for anything other than a quick fix or a very small program.

The original post was designed to be a joke, yes. Hence the remarks about how the EU should be fining Microsoft for including it in Windows. If you believe that I think the EU should be fining Microsoft at all, then you're a bit off-base 😛.


Originally posted by: BigPete
I'm curious as to what other tools you refuse to use in your day to day activities? Do you drive a car? Does your home have a garage door opener? Do you have a dishwasher? These are all things that aren't NEEDED either but help get some things done just a little bit quicker.

These are all completely different than using a simple text editor vs. an advanced text editor. Please do not attempt to plunge into other areas which do not relate. Driving a car saves me plenty of time, as I have a 30 mile commute (one way) for example. As mentioned above, editors do not always save me time.

I suppose a bike is out of the question then? 😀



 
Originally posted by: Aikouka
Originally posted by: ElDonAntonio
Uhmm, ok, anyone seriously recommending Notepad as an editor for any serious/professional coding project, be it Web or C++, doesn't have any professional experience.

Aikouka, I think you got cornered into defending this lost-cause position and doing you're best at it , but I seriously doubt you really think of Notepad as a good editor, so let's stop the nonsense and stop confusing newbies 🙂

Now, I take offense to this in great amounts... you make this blanket statement for the pure purpose of demeaning my own professional ability. You can attempt to discredit my abilities all you want as I already know my prowess, but you do not and are simply assuming. You have no idea where I work and what I do, yet you discredit a mere thing such as my methods of editing code as a means to show someone's skill level. That's about as shallow as a puddle in a desert.

Uhm, no, I never meant it as a personal attack. But if you're *really* coding with Notepad (which I didn't think you were), I'm willing to bet my hand that you're a beginner. No shame in that really.
 
Originally posted by: Thetech
I suppose a bike is out of the question then? 😀

My friend, I am a software engineer, not Lance Armstrong! 😉

Originally posted by: ElDonAntonio
Uhm, no, I never meant it as a personal attack. But if you're *really* coding with Notepad (which I didn't think you were), I'm willing to bet my hand that you're a beginner. No shame in that really.

*Holds out a machete*

Would you like to see my degree or my paycheck? 😛

I think it's going to be harder than I thought, but please get this through your head... for a lot of the coding I do, I don't need anything fancy. I don't have to connect to my own personal CVS or VSS database to check out files to work on and have them automatically check them in. My own personal work is just that... my own personal work. Although, I am fleshing out the idea of getting a couple different projects put into a CVS or some other CM database. But for now, a PHP file is quite easy to open up in notepad and make a couple simple changes to affect the output. I don't see why this is so hard to understand 😕. Even writing a PHP file from scratch isn't horribly difficult in notepad... if it was, I wouldn't continue to do it. The only benefit that I could think of possibly getting from an advanced IDE for PHP development is automatic uploading to my website. That may be a feature I'd use one for, but for now I use notepad and filezilla 😛.
 
Originally posted by: Aikouka
But for now, a PHP file is quite easy to open up in notepad and make a couple simple changes to affect the output.

Hey I totally agree about quick/easy changes in notepad. At any given time I have at least 5 notepad windows open to hold various bits and pieces of info (actually metapad, not notepad). I was just objecting to defending notepad as a serious coding environment.

And sure, you can scan and post a paycheck. My Nigerian friends will be more than happy 🙂
 
I use notepad as well. While syntax highlighting (Notepad++) is nice, it's not always necessary. Of course, if you're doing this as a job, there's no reason not to use something like Dreamweaver/Bluefish, but for quick work, it's perfect for me.
 
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