UPI/Zogby Poll: Most Americans Say Iraq War Not Lost

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: umbrella39
This struck me as kind of odd. Who is this "OUR" you speak of? Is there a rat in your back pocket?

It's called US, the United States of America. Perhaps you've heard of it? 😕

We don't go to war as a Democrat or a Republican. That's the problem with the liberal mindset.

This isn't "Their" war, it isn't a "Republican" war, it is OUR war.

It would seem to the casual observer reading your posts that YOUR goal is to cheerlead a war that you have no intention of becoming involved in other than as an honorary keyboard soldier. I hear the pay is crap but it prevents you from paying the ultimate price like the 3700+ others you and your kind have flippantly sent off to their deaths and are here to remind us on a daily basis that 3700+ is not clearly enough to quench your thirst.

Ah, the tireless old chickenhawk argument. May I ask what you've given for this country?

That is just pathetic. :roll:

Pathetic is those like yourself who seek to disqualify the opinion of someone else based on their position. The fact that I'm not active duty doesn't make my opinion or voice any less important. Then again, this falls in to the typical liberal stereotype (which you uphold to a T). Freedom of speech - only if I agree with you!

You are as pathetic as those who attempt to characterize the "other side" as somehow less patriotic or less of an American because they don't tow your party line.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
7 U.S. troops were killed today. For what?

Fighting and protecting the very freedoms which allow you to spew all your BS every day.

What is this Republican dream war in Iraq exactly?

"Republican" dream war? If you want answers to questions, stop trolling.

What is your goal? What is this reality you speak of?

Our goal is the establishment of a Democratic Iraq, an ally of Freedom, and the safety and security of this great country.

Why are you so happy about being in Iraq?

I'm not happy about Iraq or Afghanistan. Can you please show me where I said I was?

I am being hounded daily by the Mods for not answering questions beyond one line.

I don't have any control over that.

OK, thank you very much for answering those questions.

There is one question that needs serious vetting:

What is your goal? What is this reality you speak of?

Our goal is the establishment of a Democratic Iraq, an ally of Freedom, and the safety and security of this great country.

Your answer begs to question not one from your side has ever attempted to answer, hopefully you will be different.

Where in the United States Constitution does it say the U.S. is the world's policeman and charged with Nation building?

Who are we to force Iraq to be established as a "Democratic Iraq"?

also what does Iraq have to do with our "safety and security" here?

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Your answer begs to question not one from your side has ever attempted to answer, hopefully you will be different.

Where in the United States Constitution does it say the U.S. is the world's policeman and charged with Nation building?

Are you implying that Iraqis don't want freedom? Perhaps you missed the millions of purple thumbs who risked life and limb to cast a vote. Then again, Americans take this for granted all the time.

I don't believe in Imperialism or Nation-Building, however, I do believe in the defense and security of this country. There can be no question that a free Iraq allows us to accomplish that, or do you beg to differ?

Who are we to force Iraq to be established as a "Democratic Iraq"?

See above.

also what does Iraq have to do with our "safety and security" here?

Surely, you jest. If you believe that an Iraq turned in to an Islamofascist state merged with Iran would somehow be better for our security, please elaborate?

 

[nageov3t]

Good to see that the majority of Americans have some sense about them. No doubt that since this Democrats are so poll-driven, this will make them sit up and take notice that maybe their pessimism is not reflected by the general public.

I don't think the majority of the democrats in congress reflect the views of the majority of the democrats back home.

I haven't heard a serious argument from anyone in any position of knowledge and power, really, advocating an immediate withdraw, outside of the occasional base pandering.

 

[BMW540I6speed]

People on both sides of this debate love to talk about ?facts on the ground?. However the 'facts' in Iraq ceased to be a major factor in the war almost as soon as the initial invasion was completed. We, and the Iraqis, have become victims of 3 distinctly American myths.

Myth 1: Everyone wants to be an American. Intellectually we may realize this is not true, but we have all been indoctrinated in this belief from such an early age that we can?t really get rid of the idea. After all, who wouldn?t want a sprawling ranch-style house, a freezer big enough to hold 2 weeks worth of groceries, an SUV, 4th of July picnics and wide-screen Sunday football?

Myth 2: We are God?s chosen people. Our 200 years of nearly unbroken prosperity and status as the world?s sole superpower are taken to be ?outward and visible signs of inward and spiritual grace?. We will prevail because we are so wonderful. We will win because...well, because we just can't lose! How can we with the Almighty on our side?

Myth 3: You can have/do anything you want if your faith is strong enough. Americans can not accept the idea of limits. We are the country of Dale Carnegie, and we believe that we can make anything come true just by wishing it to be so. Normally, this super positive attitude is backed up by hard work and preparation. When those elements are present success can often occur.

However, when you get the GWB version, positive thinking with absolutely nothing to back it up, failure or disaster are useually the only options.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Rational people realize that when a win is no longer possible, you start to think in terms of cutting your losses.

Courageous and tenacious people never give up.

I highly recommend the following book for those of you who are consumed by defeatism: How to Succeed in Iraq: The American Way

Courage in the face of falling odds is stupidity. Smart people cut bait when you can't win.

Tell that to the Appalachian State football team!

I am sure you're one of those people who would stay in a company like Enron because you're too afraid to lose.

lousy analogy - but, just an FYI, it has nothing at all to do with being "afraid to lose"... some of you are too afraid to even try!

America can succeed in Iraq; but, as has been clear to many of us for several years, succeeding in Iraq may take a decade, or longer.

I'm down for putting in the time and doing what needs to be done, for as long as it takes... are you?

Tenacity.... look it up.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
**cut**

Just so you know most Americans also say that we should start withdrawing our troops by the end of the year too.

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1343

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: loki8481

Good to see that the majority of Americans have some sense about them. No doubt that since this Democrats are so poll-driven, this will make them sit up and take notice that maybe their pessimism is not reflected by the general public.

I don't think the majority of the democrats in congress reflect the views of the majority of the democrats back home.

I haven't heard a serious argument from anyone in any position of knowledge and power, really, advocating an immediate withdraw, outside of the occasional base pandering.

That sort of pandering stopped in the Spring, after Pelosi, Reid, Hillary, and others told Murtha to put a sock in it. No doubt they saw polls that indicated a Cut-n-Run strategy would not sell very well and with the '08 elections coming up it's all about pandering to the majority instead of the fringe.

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: umbrella39
This struck me as kind of odd. Who is this "OUR" you speak of? Is there a rat in your back pocket?

It's called US, the United States of America. Perhaps you've heard of it? 😕

We don't go to war as a Democrat or a Republican. That's the problem with the liberal mindset.

This isn't "Their" war, it isn't a "Republican" war, it is OUR war.

It would seem to the casual observer reading your posts that YOUR goal is to cheerlead a war that you have no intention of becoming involved in other than as an honorary keyboard soldier. I hear the pay is crap but it prevents you from paying the ultimate price like the 3700+ others you and your kind have flippantly sent off to their deaths and are here to remind us on a daily basis that 3700+ is not clearly enough to quench your thirst.

Ah, the tireless old chickenhawk argument. May I ask what you've given for this country?

That is just pathetic. :roll:

Pathetic is those like yourself who seek to disqualify the opinion of someone else based on their position. The fact that I'm not active duty doesn't make my opinion or voice any less important. Then again, this falls in to the typical liberal stereotype (which you uphold to a T). Freedom of speech - only if I agree with you!

You are as pathetic as those who attempt to characterize the "other side" as somehow less patriotic or less of an American because they don't tow your party line.

I was just making a casual observation and was struck by your bolding of the word our. I thought you were saying it was YOUR side that is fighting over there and dying as I thought all parties are covered over there in the 3700+ numbers R, D, and I's. And while maybe a year or two ago I would have agreed with your "old chickenhawk argument" line, the further and further we get buried into Iraq and the more and more that 3700+ number rises, I am finding harder and harder to buy into this rationale.

Edit: I missed this: May I ask what you've given for this country?

You can bet your ass if I believed in the Iraqi "war" 1/10th as much and vociferously as you guys posting here, I would be standing right alongside the men and women I am callously offering up as a sacrifice in the name of the GWOT. I wouldn't be able to live with myself knowing that I am physically able to serve but won't because of "x" for a cause that is as important as those posting here say it is.

 

[manowar821]

Looks like all of the idiotic right wing partisan-hack catch-phrases have been regurgitated in the first page. That's a speed record!

You get zero stars. For being a partisan hack, posting a link to a "poll" done by an un-reliable website, and then lacing the thread with more partisan hackery and being a prick while you're at it.

You people wonder why you get insulted all the time, too. Absolutely amazing.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Your answer begs to question not one from your side has ever attempted to answer, hopefully you will be different.

Where in the United States Constitution does it say the U.S. is the world's policeman and charged with Nation building?

Are you implying that Iraqis don't want freedom?

Perhaps you missed the millions of purple thumbs who risked life and limb to cast a vote. Then again, Americans take this for granted all the time.

I don't believe in Imperialism or Nation-Building, however,

I do believe in the defense and security of this country.

There can be no question that a free Iraq allows us to accomplish that, or do you beg to differ?

Who are we to force Iraq to be established as a "Democratic Iraq"?

See above.

also what does Iraq have to do with our "safety and security" here?

Surely, you jest. If you believe that an Iraq turned in to an Islamofascist state merged with Iran would somehow be better for our security, please elaborate?

I thank you for your answers although we are greatly divided especially since you simply could not show me where in "Our" Constitution it shows the fact that Iraqi's want freedom (by the way where is proof of that?) that it is our job, our problem and our expense to somehow grant this wish of theirs?

"Are you implying that Iraqis don't want freedom? "

It's none of my business to imply or not whether Iraqi's want freedom and it's not your business either unless of course you can somehow overcome that sticky problem of showing me in our Constitution that says it is our business.

You and your co-horts attempt at mixing the "defense and security" of this country on this side of the planet is in fact nothing more than exactly what you said you don't believe in Imperialism.

Your actions and beliefs are in direct contrast to your words.

The sales pitch didn't work. Snake oil is Snake oil no matter how you try and cover it up.

There was no WMD and whole Iraqi's wanting freedom and it is defense and security here is an absolute lie and joke.

Everyone that believes this and continues to support it are in my opinion United States traitors and should be treated as such, period.

Again I do thank you for your sincere effort at rationalizing your side.

 

[nageov3t]

zogby's an unreliable poll now? just because they don't have ron paul in double digits doesn't make them a part of the vast centrist-wing media conspiracy 😛

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: manowar821
Looks like all of the idiotic right wing partisan-hack catch-phrases have been regurgitated in the first page. That's a speed record!

You get zero stars. For being a partisan hack, posting a link to a "poll" done by an un-reliable website, and then lacing the thread with more partisan hackery and being a prick while you're at it.

You people wonder why you get insulted all the time, too. Absolutely amazing.

contribute much? :roll:

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Rational people realize that when a win is no longer possible, you start to think in terms of cutting your losses. Or finding what is the cheapest loss.

We're capable of building up Iraq into the next Iran. Whether we can do that or not should be beside the point - it should be IF we should do it. Argue that and you?ll go further.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: manowar821
Looks like all of the idiotic right wing partisan-hack catch-phrases have been regurgitated in the first page. That's a speed record!

You get zero stars. For being a partisan hack, posting a link to a "poll" done by an un-reliable website, and then lacing the thread with more partisan hackery and being a prick while you're at it.

You people wonder why you get insulted all the time, too. Absolutely amazing.

Ah, yes. I've seen all your non-partisan commentary in here so you are obviously the person to call me out on this. With all the anti-war rhetoric, outright leftista lies, and the relentless Bush bashing that goes on in this forum sometimes I forget how non-partisan it is.

Hey, thanks for the head's up and opening my eyes. I really appreciate that. :thumbsup:

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: manowar821
You people wonder why you get insulted all the time, too. Absolutely amazing.

Sometimes we wonder if the minimum age requirement is enforced here.

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: manowar821
You people wonder why you get insulted all the time, too. Absolutely amazing.

Sometimes we wonder if the minimum age requirement is enforced here.

It might explain the lack of users here that are actively serving in the ME 😉

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Rational people realize that when a win is no longer possible, you start to think in terms of cutting your losses.

Courageous and tenacious people never give up.

I highly recommend the following book for those of you who are consumed by defeatism: How to Succeed in Iraq: The American Way

Courage in the face of falling odds is stupidity. Smart people cut bait when you can't win.

Tell that to the Appalachian State football team!

I am sure you're one of those people who would stay in a company like Enron because you're too afraid to lose.

lousy analogy - but, just an FYI, it has nothing at all to do with being "afraid to lose"... some of you are too afraid to even try!

America can succeed in Iraq; but, as has been clear to many of us for several years, succeeding in Iraq may take a decade, or longer.

I'm down for putting in the time and doing what needs to be done, for as long as it takes... are you?

Tenacity.... look it up.

My job is about probability, that's how I live and make money. Probably of people who borrow money defaulting, companies who service the loans failing, my bank losing money, when to cut off a company's warehouse line due to probability of default of both the lender and/or borrower. It's all about probability.

When I got to my first job out of grad school, they didn't know what the probability of default was in their loan pool. If you had a pulse, you had a loan. They never determined how to FICO underwrite their portfolio, nor how to optimize their money. Sure, they raised interest rates on a 450 fico compared to 850, but never went beyond that.

Once I showed them the folly of their ways, they cut off FICO at 550, charged higher rates on a risk-based approach. Now, because of my work, they probably make an additional 10mm in profit annually, after you consider increased financed %, lower cost of borrowing, lower loss rates, and higher interest income.

There is a point where a smart man has to ask himself whether what he is doing is worth the risk and the investment going forward. Whatever happened in the past, is in the past. It's a sunk cost and it is irrelevent to the future. If you honestly think the future investment is worth the cost, then do it. However, you must judge your probability of success. I am all for tenacity, I never went to an Ivy League school and I was told that I shouldn't try to get into i-banking because of that. I am here despite that because I was tenacious and it only took me 4 years.

We have had 4 years in Iraq and have yet to do anything of measure in improving the situation. Troop deaths are up 66%, money is being pissed away, and the Iraqi government has failed in it's goals.

Could we win? Yes, we could, but at what cost and what are the probabilities? Honestly, I don't think they are very high, probably 33% and declining as time goes on.

Personally, 2:1 odds that we won't succeed sucks, especially considering the cost in men, material, and money.

 

[Starbuck1975]

It may be true that 54% think that the war is not lost (which is actually rising), only 33% say that we're winning currently. The 54% is about the only bright spot for your war mongers out there.

It is not a question of warmongering...the Democrats have made defeatism and failure the mantras of their campaigns against Bush, but that strategy doesn't work if reports of progress and success start hitting the media.

Sure, we shouldn't have gone into Iraq to begin with, but that is a moot point at this juncture...we cannot simply walk away without defining clear strategic goals for stabilizing the region...to do otherwise is irresponsible, and sets the stage for a regional or sectarian conflict the moment American troops withdraw.

It bothers me that some of you question success and optimism surrounding the situation in Iraq...take politics out of the equation, and think what is best for both America and our soldiers.

Yes Bush is an idiot for getting us into Iraq...the Democrats, and their politicizing the war effort, is nearly as idiotic.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

It may be true that 54% think that the war is not lost (which is actually rising), only 33% say that we're winning currently. The 54% is about the only bright spot for your war mongers out there.

It is not a question of warmongering...the Democrats have made defeatism and failure the mantras of their campaigns against Bush, but that strategy doesn't work if reports of progress and success start hitting the media.

Sure, we shouldn't have gone into Iraq to begin with, but that is a moot point at this juncture...we cannot simply walk away without defining clear strategic goals for stabilizing the region...to do otherwise is irresponsible, and sets the stage for a regional or sectarian conflict the moment American troops withdraw.

It bothers me that some of you question success and optimism surrounding the situation in Iraq...take politics out of the equation, and think what is best for both America and our soldiers.

Yes Bush is an idiot for getting us into Iraq...the Democrats, and their politicizing the war effort, is nearly as idiotic.

What is best for America and our soldiers is to pull out of that shithole and let them form their own government (or kill themselves in the process).

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

It may be true that 54% think that the war is not lost (which is actually rising), only 33% say that we're winning currently. The 54% is about the only bright spot for your war mongers out there.

It is not a question of warmongering...the Democrats have made defeatism and failure the mantras of their campaigns against Bush, but that strategy doesn't work if reports of progress and success start hitting the media.

Sure, we shouldn't have gone into Iraq to begin with, but that is a moot point at this juncture...we cannot simply walk away without defining clear strategic goals for stabilizing the region...to do otherwise is irresponsible, and sets the stage for a regional or sectarian conflict the moment American troops withdraw.

It bothers me that some of you question success and optimism surrounding the situation in Iraq...take politics out of the equation, and think what is best for both America and our soldiers.

Yes Bush is an idiot for getting us into Iraq...the Democrats, and their politicizing the war effort, is nearly as idiotic.

Now that is something I hope we can all agree on. Knowing this, where to go from here? Is it so unreasonable to expect the Iraqis to become a little more involved in securing and running their own country again sans US intervention? I just don't see that our current leaders are giving them a strict enough timetable for doing just that. Sure we can throw more troops at the problem until the next election cycle and just stay the course. Those kinds of politics makes me sick though. It should be about what is best for our troops and our country and not about what is best for party. Shrugs.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
It's none of my business to imply or not whether Iraqi's want freedom and it's not your business either unless of course you can somehow overcome that sticky problem of showing me in our Constitution that says it is our business.

You and your co-horts attempt at mixing the "defense and security" of this country on this side of the planet is in fact nothing more than exactly what you said you don't believe in Imperialism.

Your actions and beliefs are in direct contrast to your words.

The sales pitch didn't work. Snake oil is Snake oil no matter how you try and cover it up.

There was no WMD and whole Iraqi's wanting freedom and it is defense and security here is an absolute lie and joke.

Everyone that believes this and continues to support it are in my opinion United States traitors and should be treated as such, period.

Again I do thank you for your sincere effort at rationalizing your side.

Dave, pardon me for intruding in your discourse.

Iraqi's wanting freedom?

I don't know, I think so but don't really know. I do know that in the past we (USA) have inserted *strongmen* as leaders of other countries with very poor results. So, I hope we don't go that route again.

What are the other choices?

Well, I suppose we could leave Iraq to chaos and chance, just let whatever will happen, well happen without any of our influence. I see no support for that anywhere except here at ATP&N. I don't see the Dems in Congress suporting that, the neighbors of Iraq don't support that, from the few Euro sources I've read I don't see that they support that either, etc. Too risky, *unfair* of us (we broke it, we fix it) and contrary to world opinion (likely domestic too).

What are we left with? Some form of Democracy, whether it be a unified Iraq or a partitioned Iraq.

I think we all wish we could just go back in time and undo the whole thing, but we can't. So, we need to get past that and move on to one of three choices above (unless somebody can come up with more choices - but a lack of good choices does seem to be a big problem that's long been recognized). We really can't just wish this problem away or ignore it and hope it goes away by itself.

Fern

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
It's none of my business to imply or not whether Iraqi's want freedom and it's not your business either unless of course you can somehow overcome that sticky problem of showing me in our Constitution that says it is our business.

You and your co-horts attempt at mixing the "defense and security" of this country on this side of the planet is in fact nothing more than exactly what you said you don't believe in Imperialism.

Your actions and beliefs are in direct contrast to your words.

The sales pitch didn't work. Snake oil is Snake oil no matter how you try and cover it up.

There was no WMD and whole Iraqi's wanting freedom and it is defense and security here is an absolute lie and joke.

Everyone that believes this and continues to support it are in my opinion United States traitors and should be treated as such, period.

Again I do thank you for your sincere effort at rationalizing your side.

Dave, pardon me for intruding in your discourse.

Iraqi's wanting freedom?

I don't know, I think so but don't really know. I do know that in the past we (USA) have inserted *strongmen* as leaders of other countries with very poor results. So, I hope we don't go that route again.

What are the other choices?

Well, I suppose we could leave Iraq to chaos and chance, just let whatever will happen, well happen without any of our influence. I see no support for that anywhere except here at ATP&N. I don't see the Dems in Congress suporting that, the neighbors of Iraq don't support that, from the few Euro sources I've read I don't see that they support that either, etc. Too risky, *unfair* of us (we broke it, we fix it) and contrary to world opinion (likely domestic too).

What are we left with? Some form of Democracy, whether it be a unified Iraq or a partitioned Iraq.

I think we all wish we could just go back in time and undo the whole thing, but we can't. So, we need to get past that and move on to one of three choices above (unless somebody can come up with more choices - but a lack of good choices does seem to be a big problem that's long been recognized). We really can't just wish this problem away or ignore it and hope it goes away by itself.

Fern

Come on, you know why you don't see the leave option.

Can't leave the oil unsecure.

You do know that the primary missions there are to guard the oil truck convoys right?

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
You do know that the primary missions there are to guard the oil truck convoys right?

really?! "THE primary missions," eh?

got link?

 

[Red Dawn]

Lose? We've yet to be defeated in a single battle so can can anybody say we are losing? It's seems more of a futile exercise, the Iraqi's don't want us there, the more insurgents and terrorist we kill the less it seems to matter as they are replaced daily by new ones. The only thing we can do is help the Iraqis help themselves and they don't seem to be on the same page as us. What we are doing is wasting lives, money and making ourselves more vunerable by creating new enemies as time passes.

Bush had it right when he was first campaigning to be President, America shouldn't get into the business of nation building and now he is looking very prophetic. Too bad the asshole didn't listen to his own words!