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[jdoggg1]

Need some opinions guys.. thanks! I am learning the whole OCing process and am thinking of building a 2nd computer for OCing and gaming only.

Currently I have the system seen on my profile. P4C800-deluxe, P4 2.4c, 1.5 gigs of RAM (2x256 generic pc-3200, 2x512 pc-4000 patriot) BFG 6800gt. I've got my CPU OC'd to 2.8Ghz with the AI overclocking tool.. I'd like to get into doing the OCing myself and work into a watercooled OC'd machine. I hear it is easier to learn how to OC on AMD chips.

I am by no means wealthy... so I want best bang/buck. But am willing to pay some extra coin for performance.

-Socket 939... is it true that it's going to be phased out next year?

-Mobo- I'm considering getting either the DFI LANPARTY UT nF4 Ultra-D ---OR-- the ASUS A8N-E. I'm not going to get into crazy OCing, but I'd definately like to get a healthy boost.

-Case- I think I'm going to spring for the CM stacker. I like the fact that the P-180 is going to be so quiet, but I'd like to watercool and the Stacker seems to have enough for a watercooling setup.

-CPU- I'm tempted to opt for an X2, but right now I just don't think I can justify the price. What would be the best A64 to get that would be a large enough improvement over my current cpu (in gaming) to justify the purchase, but not break the bank?

-Memory- I hear memory speed is not as important for the AMD rigs as with Intel. With that in mind... any opinions on a sweet spot between high performance ram and cost?

-storage- I have a WD IDE 80GB, WD SATA 120GB, and just purchased a 36gb raptor for $100. I've been hearing a lot about how the raptors are not nearly the speed kings they used to be.. should i take it back? (still unopended in the box)

Right now what I'm thinking about doing is making the 2nd computer and practice OCing with it for a while. To keep cost low, I won't get a GFX card for it for a bit so I can focus on getting to know the basics. And wait to see how some of the new GFX cards pan out (price & performance).

Opinions?

 

[d2arcturus]

The DFI will definately OC better than the ASUS, go with that.
If you don't want to go with an X2 then consider the 3700+ San Diego (if you want to save more go with a 3000+ Venice).
If going with DFI get OCZ memory, 2GB recommended.

 

[furballi]

The overclocked P4 should work fine as a gaming PC. Just upgrade the video card.

For the new system, check out the Abit AN8, Abit AX8, or Epox EP-9NPA. All boards will allow you to overclock an AMD 64 3000 Venice to at least 270MHz FSB IF you happen to get a decent CPU. A new Abit AX8 should come with the new chip that support dual core CPU. Overclock the AX8 an additional 55MHz and I'll be on par with the other NF4 boards. The AN8 may be the best deal since it comes with a heatpipe cooler for the NF4 chipset.

Watercooling isn't going to get you much more speed. I'd pass on this option. Check out the Antec SLK3000B case. All tooless case including two 120 mm fans and quick release hard drive bay, optical bay, and floppy bay.

The AMD64 3000 or 3200 can easily hit 2.4GHz, and some chips can exceed 2.7GHz. It's the best value for your $. Gamers will benefit the most with a good video card. Don't get too carry away with CPU speed. 2GB of RAM may help some games.

The Corsair Value Select should allow you to run up to +270MHz FSB at 5:6 memory divider. The penalty will only be about 50MHz CPU core speed. Use the $ saved for a good video card.

I'd take the Raptor back. A 10K rpm will do NOTHING for your games. Go with a $60 Seagate SATA drive with 5 yr warranty. Also avoid RAID 0 since real-world speed gain is minimal.

You'll probably need a decent CPU cooler. I like the Zalman 7000Cu or 7700 Cu. The big 7700 will also cool your RAM, MOSFETs, and chipset.

http://shop1.outpost.com/product/4303155

 

[BOLt]

DFI for OC'ing, period.

Crucial Ballistix is a good price point between OCZ and the lower RAM and it OCs as well. Mushkin Redline is also a thought.

Raptor is nice. Can always RAID two Seagates instead though (nice warranty and RAID will make up for the lower RPMs).

Grab a BFG 7800 GTX from Dell at $520 and then you won't have to worry about OC'ing your GPU and you'll actually be able to *gasp* play ganes on your gaming machine.

I've heard things like that about Socket 939, but I doubt they will be "obsolete" to the point of warranting that you wait 6 months for the new socket.

If you really wanna show off your OC'ing prowess, just grab a 3000+ or 3200+ AMD64 CPU and get it to 4000+/FX-55 clock speeds. That's hardcore.

Good luck with your noble purpose.

 

[jdoggg1]

I appreciate the input furball.. The watercooling is more for something to spice up the look, give me something to do, and provide headroom for OCing. I like the Stacker for its room, elegant look, and USB/firewire connectivity options. I will be taking the circular mesh grill out and making a plexiglass one to replace it so you can see in.

As far as those Mobos go.. why those instead of the ones I listed?

Do you know if Fry's takes B&M purchases back via mail? I picked up the harddrive on a visit to my family. The closest one is 150 miles away.

 

[Hacp]

I would go with ocz value VX. Tight timings matter alot, even if your using the divider. IMO, the DFI mobo is just for very extreme overclockers. Thats why they want all the options and little tweaks. Regualr overclockers can def do with the boards that furballi mentioned. If you don't plan on ever gettign dual core, the ABIT AX8 is a good board, and will feed volts to the value VX. If you are planning on going dual core however, the EPoX EP-9NPA+Ultra OR the DFI NF4-D(not nforce4 ultra-D) are good budget motherboards that won't break your bank, and will fuel the OCZ value VX to a god FSB. For your Processor, since you are planning on overclocking, and the OCZ value VX can do around 230 fsb with tight timings, I would suggest that you get the AMD 3200+ Venice. It has a multiplier of 10 and with efficient use of the divider, you can overclock it to 2760 MHZ if your processor can handle it. Also, I would second the suggestion for the Zalman cooler.

You should defenetly return your Western Digital Raptor. It might give you some improvement, but it isn't worth it. Your better off spending the extra money on a better video card.

 

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: BOLt
DFI for OC'ing, period.

Crucial Ballistix is a good price point between OCZ and the lower RAM and it OCs as well. Mushkin Redline is also a thought.

Raptor is nice. Can always RAID two Seagates instead though (nice warranty and RAID will make up for the lower RPMs).

Grab a BFG 7800 GTX from Dell at $520 and then you won't have to worry about OC'ing your GPU and you'll actually be able to *gasp* play ganes on your gaming machine.

I've heard things like that about Socket 939, but I doubt they will be "obsolete" to the point of warranting that you wait 6 months for the new socket.

If you really wanna show off your OC'ing prowess, just grab a 3000+ or 3200+ AMD64 CPU and get it to 4000+/FX-55 clock speeds. That's hardcore.

Good luck with your noble purpose.

Seriously, have you ever read any of the articles at anandtech?

 

[jdoggg1]

I know its hard to quantify... but lets just say that with my current set-up VS. changing over ONLY the mobo/cpu (theoretically)... would there be a substantial gaming performance of my 2.4c at 2.88 compared to an A64 3000/3200 venice @ (what i've heard) a generally attainable 2.5ghz?

 

[n7]

Wait a second.

jdoggg1, you want to keep using your AGP BFG 6800GT, don't you?

 

[BOLt]

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: BOLt
DFI for OC'ing, period.

Crucial Ballistix is a good price point between OCZ and the lower RAM and it OCs as well. Mushkin Redline is also a thought.

Raptor is nice. Can always RAID two Seagates instead though (nice warranty and RAID will make up for the lower RPMs).

Grab a BFG 7800 GTX from Dell at $520 and then you won't have to worry about OC'ing your GPU and you'll actually be able to *gasp* play ganes on your gaming machine.

I've heard things like that about Socket 939, but I doubt they will be "obsolete" to the point of warranting that you wait 6 months for the new socket.

If you really wanna show off your OC'ing prowess, just grab a 3000+ or 3200+ AMD64 CPU and get it to 4000+/FX-55 clock speeds. That's hardcore.

Good luck with your noble purpose.

Seriously, have you ever read any of the articles at anandtech?

Nice double post... you wanna clarify what you are implying? I've read quite a few -- not many on hard drives -- but I'm not sure what you're basing a comment like that on...?

 

[jdoggg1]

Originally posted by: n7
Wait a second.

jdoggg1, you want to keep using your AGP BFG 6800GT, don't you?

Well.. i'd like to use this current set-up for all daily computing tasks and such and throw my 6800gt in the new computer, but PCI-e is the future, and my 6800gt is AGP... sooo.. I'll get the new computer, suffer through not having a video card for it for a little bit (while i tinker with OCing and stuff) and get the PCI-e card that suits my needs (and budget) a little later

 

[Hacp]

Raid 0 will not boost performance on areas where the 10,000 rpm matter. Raid 0 is generally perceived as useless. Also, the 36 gb Raptor(OLD ONE) is slower than the 74 GB one. I'm not sure if he purchased an old one or a new one, but the old one almost gives very little performance gain over regular 7200 rpm hard drives. Even comparing the 74 GB raptor to a regular 7200 hard drive, the performance is very close in practical applications. It doesn't warrent the HUGE price premium he is paying for the raptor.

 

[NoSpeed]

BOLt, that is an attractive price for the 7800, but I could only find it listed for a shade over $600: accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdeta...n&cs=19&category_id=2999&page=external. Do you have a link to that price or do you need a coupon? Thanks.

 

[Hacp]

Here is what I think you should get. BTW, return your raptor. Isn't worth it, especially if your saving for your video card.
Mobo
http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant...oduct_Code=110799&Category_Code=AMD939
Ram
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820227213
HS/Fan
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductLi...&manufactory=1647&bop=and&Order=rating
Processor
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103535
Power supply
http://www.mwave.com/mwave/viewspec.hmx?scriteria=BA21498

I'm not sure about the video card though. Maybe you can buy some cheapo pci video card. Or, you can be adventerous and try unlocking the 6200 pipelines and overclocking it. Also, ZZF has the NEC 3540A for 41 shipped but its in backorder. Out of stock.

 

[BOLt]

Originally posted by: HacpSeriously, have you ever read any of the articles at anandtech?

Originally posted by: Hacp
Raid 0 will not boost performance on areas where the 10,000 rpm matter. Raid 0 is generally perceived as useless. Also, the 36 gb Raptor(OLD ONE) is slower than the 74 GB one. I'm not sure if he purchased an old one or a new one, but the old one almost gives very little performance gain over regular 7200 rpm hard drives. Even comparing the 74 GB raptor to a regular 7200 hard drive, the performance is very close in practical applications. It doesn't warrent the HUGE price premium he is paying for the raptor.

Basically, you questioned the validity of all of my statements by quoting my entire post while meaning to just pick out the hard drive choice.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822144200
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822144160

I see a very minute seek time difference. Seems to me that some people just don't want/need a larger HD then they feel is necessary... since I don't know him well enough to judge that, I gave him options. Imagine that... giving someone options.

He's got the money to afford spending a bit more to get a bit more performance. When you've got $2k for a system, you can do things like that. It might not make sense to you, but that also might be because you don't drop $2k on a system. The Raptors will certainly help his performance in the area where computers are most bottlenecked (hard drive access times) and from the number of high-end systems that have either RAID 0 or Raptors, it seems to be generally accepted as a valid route.

EDIT: Also, he did ask for well thought out opinions only, Hacp... maybe you should try giving reasons for your suggestions versus just making links.

 

[Hacp]

Try reading the articles refering to the real life performance of raid0/raptors.

http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=2101
This one and the other two in the storage section.

 

[BOLt]

Originally posted by: NoSpeed
BOLt, that is an attractive price for the 7800, but I could only find it listed for a shade over $600: accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdeta...n&cs=19&category_id=2999&page=external. Do you have a link to that price or do you need a coupon? Thanks.

There are a couple of threads on Anandtech telling of it. Dell may have cancelled such a great deal recently (as in sometime today) because word is getting around pretty fast. There is an e-coupon to be used. Check bensbargains and/or techbargains (do a search for the 7800 GTX on techbargains).

 

[furballi]

A high-end video card will yield the most improvement with games. I doubt that the new system will be 10% better than the old system if you equip both with high-end video card. Note that the new board will require PCI-E card. Remember that things always look better with benchmark software.

As for RAM speed, the penalty for the use of Value RAM is about 50 to 60MHz CPU core speed. Again, you will only see the performance hit with test software.

I'd hold off on the build until you are ready to spring up the money for a top notch PCI-E video card.

 

[BOLt]

Originally posted by: Hacp
Try reading the articles refering to the real life performance of raid0/raptors.

http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=2101
This one and the other two in the storage section.

Have you yet addressed anything to do with this post?

 

[jdoggg1]

I appreciate the feedback everyone. Keep it coming.

But you really think that an OC A64 3200+ OC'd mildly/med would be only ~10% better than a P4-2.4c OC'd to 2.8?

I understand that the video card makes a huge difference. But at the same time... i just remember how everyone was saying that all but top end systems were bottlenecking the 6800U/GT... and it seems like from everything i've read, A64s offer noticeable performance increases over comparable P4 systems. In my logic, an A64 3200+ OC'd to even 2.4ghz would be MORE than comparable.

 

[jdoggg1]

oh.. and how do you tell if you have the the "older 36gb raptor" vs the "newer 36gb raptor"?

 

[RussianSensation]

Just dont throw perfectly good ram. you have 1.5 gigs of PC3200 or faster stuff. You wont get more than 3-5% benefit from any new ram - - whether it is DDR600 or 2-2-2-5 stuff. So right there you already save.

2.4Cs overclock extremely well. You could get way more than 2.8ghz out of it. Try to manually raise the FSB with increases in cpu voltage when needed. Go up to 1.65 real cpu voltage max. See how high you can go being stable.

Best bang for the buck for you would be to overclock past 3.0ghz and get 7800GTX in AGP - not available. I personally woulnd't get a 7800GTX now until I see what ATI has to offer.

So I personally wouldnt upgrade anything until:

1) i've seen what the limit of that P4 is
2) waited until AMD has price cuts on the A64 line (soon)
3) seen R520 in action (if AGP, bonus). Even if R520 is not much faster, 7800GTX seems to be falling in price very fast. Already $540-550 on pricewatch. I have a feeling it'll dip below $500. 7800Ultra might be introduced. And of course ATi AGP card might be faster. Your system is still good enough for now.
4) I want to see how A64 X2 3800+ performs. It should be released soon too for $345. If it overclocks to 2.6ghz in dual-core, it might be the next best cpu.

 

[Hacp]

He wants to get 2 computers. One is his old computer while one is a new one.

 

[jdoggg1]

Good call Russian -- One big reason I was wanting to build another, separate, system is b/c with all the OCing and tinkering I'll be doing... i'll have another computer to fall back on and ask you guys for advice

I cannot find the BIOS features that allow me to control voltages/FSB settings/RAM latencies etc. I remember reading that I need to move some jumpers to OC correctly.. will those options not be avialable in BIOS if the jumpers are not set correctly? Does anyone have a picture of the MOBO with the correct jumper settings if so? I realize i am extremely naive at the moment, but ya gotta learn somewhere right?