Upgrade challenge!

[Timsa20]

Hey all you Guru's...

Here is the deal. I currently have two functioning WinXP Pro boxes.

One is Pentium3-1Ghz based, the other is newer and AMD 2700XP based. The P-3 system is currently FULL of hard drives (4 of them... 400-500 Gigs total), DVD Burner, a good nVidia graphics card and this is the old tried and true system I have been using for years (TONS of software on board!). The AMD system has a bigger PSU, the faster processor, better Mobo (raid etc), but a tiny Hard drive, cheapo graphics display and I've only used it for some business apps.

I want to take the drives, burner, better video board etc. out of the P-3 box and load it all into the AMD box (and vice-versa). What I want to essentially end up with is the better components (AMD, MoBo, burner, drives, vid) loaded into the better box (the box with the AMD). Of course, I will take the necessary components in the other direction to make a low-budget P-3 that crawls along for business apps.

Sounds easy right. Swap the components from box to box and then boot them both up right? Ooops... forgot that the AMD Motherboard will have to have Bios work to recognize new drives/vid/burner etc. The P-3 will need the same sort of stuff.

So how do I do it without reformatting both systems back to scratch? Can't I just make good XP boot disks, swap out the hardware components and then boot to the disks? Will this work?

I should think that if I make good boot disks (one set for each PC), swap the drives into the proper configurations (IE. ensure the boot drive currently in the P3 is swapped into the AMD as the boot drive and vice-versa), and install the other drives into the AMD in proper order (masters/slaves etc.), then this system should boot.

Now I know the purists among you will say ?back up your data before you attempt this?, but hey? how?m I gonna back up 500 gig without buying a DAT! I have the critical stuff backed up, but you know how it is when you Fdisk/reformat/and reload a system?. Things aint? never the same?. Or right.

So here is my plan; Backup what I can from each system. Create boot disk sets for each system. Trade the boot drives, add additional drives to the AMD system. Swap out floppy drives, CDROM/DVD burners. Swap out video boards. Once the hardware stuff is swapped, I?ll boot and adjust the Bios as necessary to reflect the HW changes.

Is this the way to go at this? Perhaps I should just start by swapping boot drives and see if they'll run (this way I'll be able to retrofit if necessary).

I?ll appreciate ANY and all suggestions from you ?oh so learned?!!!

Quite a challenge huh?

Tanks for the hep!!

 

[Jeff7]

So here is my plan; Backup what I can from each system. Create boot disk sets for each system. Trade the boot drives, add additional drives to the AMD system. Swap out floppy drives, CDROM/DVD burners. Swap out video boards. Once the hardware stuff is swapped, I?ll boot and adjust the Bios as necessary to reflect the HW changes.

You needn't swap the floppy drives. And you shouldn't have to change anything in the BIOS; it should automatically recognize all the new IDE drives, and anything in the expansion slots.

Since you're swapping all the hardware, the OS will be the only thing that would freak out. If the systems do boot to Windows, there'll be remnants of all the old drivers, which can cause performance issues, and registry bloat. It's also possible that Windows will simply spit up a BSOD, and be completely unable to boot. This happened when I upgraded a VIA KT133A-based system to an nForce2. Windows blue-screened and couldn't boot, even in Safe Mode.

So you might actually not want to trade the boot drives if you're not switching the motherboards - unless it is the drives themselves you also want to swap. If that's the case, just wipe out each Windows installation and reinstall.

 

[Timsa20]

Jeff7,
Thanks for the insights. I probably could have explaned my plan a bit more simply if I'd have said "I want to swap the AMD proc. + mobo into the system that now runs on the P3 and vice-versa". But this isn't entirly accurate because the P3 system is an older (ugh) Dell that has a proprietary case and PSU. Therefore my only real option is to swap all of the periferals from the Dell into the AMD cased unit. Everything that's in the Dell will go to the AMD and vice versa including the boot drive. This done, won't the boot drive in the AMD (the boot drive which used to boot the Dell and all these perifs), boot in the new system since that boot drive will still find all of the same peripherals and drivers that will now be in the AMD (cause I'm moving everything... all drives, CD/DVD, video etc. into the AMD along with that boot drive)? It'll be the entire old Dell system(less P3+MoBo) in a new case with the AMD Proc., MOBO and bigger PSU. I'm more or less gutting the Dell and installing all of the components into the AMD.

Whaddya think?

 

[helpmeout]

What you are really saying is "You're swapping cases". Don't see why it won't work, except Dell uses a proprietary MOBO and case, so I wonder if things will physically fit in the other cases.

 

[dclive]

Originally posted by: Timsa20
Jeff7,
Thanks for the insights. I probably could have explaned my plan a bit more simply if I'd have said "I want to swap the AMD proc. + mobo into the system that now runs on the P3 and vice-versa". But this isn't entirly accurate because the P3 system is an older (ugh) Dell that has a proprietary case and PSU. Therefore my only real option is to swap all of the periferals from the Dell into the AMD cased unit. Everything that's in the Dell will go to the AMD and vice versa including the boot drive. This done, won't the boot drive in the AMD (the boot drive which used to boot the Dell and all these perifs), boot in the new system since that boot drive will still find all of the same peripherals and drivers that will now be in the AMD (cause I'm moving everything... all drives, CD/DVD, video etc. into the AMD along with that boot drive)? It'll be the entire old Dell system(less P3+MoBo) in a new case with the AMD Proc., MOBO and bigger PSU. I'm more or less gutting the Dell and installing all of the components into the AMD.

Whaddya think?

It will work fine as long as the HAL is the same (look in Device Manager, under the PC option at the top - as long as both say *exactly* the same thing, you're OK), and as long as both use the same IDE hard disk controller.

So, do 2 things: 1. Set your system to NOT auto-reboot in the event of a bluescreen, and 2. change your hard drive controller that you're moving from the old system to the new system to "Standard PCI IDE Controller" and then immediately shut down. Then boot up with that hard drive in the new system, and you should be all set.

XP PnPs drivers. Don't worry about "registry bloat" - you'll be fine. If you're that concerned about add-in programs, just go to add/remove control panel (once everything is running on the new system) and uninstall whatever you don't need anymore.

 

[Blazer]

i am gonna watch this thread,as i havenot seen a rabbit as big as a kangaroo pulled through such a small HAT ever.

if you get this done without a format or performance problem you have earned a attaboy and be awarded the XP GURU !!!!!

 

[Timsa20]

dclive (others).
Thanks for the help.

dclive you lost me with your discussion about the HAL... What's a "HAL"?

It also seems that I'm not doing a very good job explaining my situation... here goes.

I've had this Dell Pentium 3, 1ghz system for many years. It has a good case but the case is proprietary and will NOT accept other manufacturers mother boards. The Dell also has a minimal power supply that is also proprietary and won't work with other MoBos. This Dell contains 4 hard drives (2 drives on one mobo IDE connector, one as master and one as slave). The boot drive is a 160gig Maxtor. On the second IDE mobo connector I have two optical drives (a CD-ROM and a DVD-RW). As you can see, all of the native mobo IDE connectors are used up. I have added an additional PCI Bus master IDE controller card installed in an available PCI slot which allows me to connect 2 more IDE drives, and 2 more SATA drives. I currently use this PCI/IDE controller to support 2 more 180 gig drives. This Dell also has an SCSI card installed to support SCSI devices, a PCI Audio card, a good AGP video card, a V.90 modem and a NIC installed (I connect via DSL). The Dell mobo only came with 2 USB-1 ports, accepts a max of 768 RAM (I currently have 384 installed). As you can see the Dell is LONG in the tooth, but it is my MAIN system.

Now the second system; I was given (yes... for free) a second computer that consists of the following hardware. An Asus Mobo with an AMD 2700xp processor with 512 RAM (expandable to 3 gig). This mobo has 4 USB-2, 2 USB-1, Raid, SATA, on-board sound, and many other bells and whistles. The MoBo is installed in a "plain-Jane" case with a nice 400w truepower PSU. This system ONLY has one, 8 gig hard drive in it. It has an older generation 24x CD-ROM, and an older generation CD-RW that won't burn but reads ok. As far as expansion cards, it has an old, low budget PCI graphics card and a good wireless 10/100 network card installed...

So what would you all do? You'd want to use that nice ASUS mobo and AMD processor as your MAIN system foundation. But you can't move the Asus/AMD into the Dell because the Dell case and PSU won't accept it. So you'd do the next best thing.... remove the hardware you want/need FROM the Dell and put it INTO the case that already has the Asus and AMD processor.

So I'm gonna tear everything out of the DELL that I need, and install all that stuff into the case which already has the ASUS/AMD in it. I'll take the parts that I have left laying around and "Frankenstein" the Dell back together (Dell case/mobo/processor, add that little 8 gig drive, the cheap video card etc. and have a working, low budget business clunker).

Now.... how do I make these changes WITHOUT having to scrap all of my Apps?

I really appreciate all of your patience with me...

Turn up the power Igor.....
it's.... it's.... IT'S ALIVE!!!!!!!
Shucks BSOD!!!!!!
Turn off the power Igor.....

 

[Timsa20]

Originally posted by: blazer
i am gonna watch this thread,as i havenot seen a rabbit as big as a kangaroo pulled through such a small HAT ever.

if you get this done without a format or performance problem you have earned a attaboy and be awarded the XP GURU !!!!!

I LOVE it!

Fortunatly I'll shrink that kangaroo with the atomic miniturizer I picked up from the set of "Incredible Journey"!!



Igor.... turn on that cool zappy lightning ball thingy and stand back!

 

[Blazer]

HAL = {hardware abstraction layer},what it means / XP has taken a fingerprint of the {mobo-processor and C: hard drive } and other pieces of hardware,XP will allow you to change some, but mobo proc and C::thumbsdown:

 

[Timsa20]

Blazer,
I see... and how do I verify my HAL again?

If I go to Device Manager; Click on "Computer"; Advanced Configuration and Power Interface (ACPI) PC; properties for this says; ROOT\ACPI_HAL\0000

Is this what ur talking about?

 

[Blazer]

i know of no way to see those fingerprints/serial #s.

there are three altogether that XP uses to identify and transmit {upon activation} the fingerprints of a sys,they are the HAL,DAT & BAT files,you can see the three in the root of windows but you cannot veiw or alter either three.

either the hat is getting smaller OR the rabbit is now taking steroids

 

[Timsa20]

Blazer,
Let me see if I have this right. What you are sayin is that this windows, embeded "Mobo/Processor" fingerprint on my C:boot drive in the Dell machine now, will go NUTS and probably BSOD if put into the case with the ASUS/AMD processor?

So it's a "simple" matter of having XP's fingerprint ignored or rewritten when the OS is moved to the ASUS/AMD platform. Hmmmmmm.....

1. What would happen if I created a system restore point and burned it onto a CD.
2. Then I drag all the hardware out of the Dell and put it into the ASUS/AMD.
3. Then I install a NEW, clean hard drive into the ASUS/AMD and load XP onto that new drive.
4. THEN do a "Restore" to the restore point I created on the CD.

The more I think about this, I realize that I'm probably not the first person in the world who wanted to upgrade the Mobo/processor combination that lives UNDER the winXP operating system (this is essentially what I want to do). It shouldn't be this tough (thanks Mr. Gates). Somebody should write an application to make this easier.

I'm off to tear up the web to hunt for possible apps!

(How 'bout I shave that rabbit to make him a bit smaller?)

 

[dclive]

Originally posted by: blazer
HAL = {hardware abstraction layer},what it means / XP has taken a fingerprint of the {mobo-processor and C: hard drive } and other pieces of hardware,XP will allow you to change some, but mobo proc and C::thumbsdown:

Close, but not quite. The HAL is the hardware abstraction layer, and you can read more about it here:
http://support.microsoft.com/d...cid=kb%3Ben-us%3B99588
http://scilnet.fortlewis.edu/t...erver/architecture.htm

In English, just look in DeviceManager under COMPUTER - that's the HAL. It must match between the computers if you want to move hard drives around.

It isn't the fingerprint bit. It also isn't a (hands down)-worthy event. Moving a hard drive between motherboards, especially nowadays with most boards using the same HALs, is easy. There's been post after post about this topic in this forum, with people reporting complete success once the HAL/hard drive issues are taken into consideration.

 

[dclive]

Originally posted by: Timsa20
Blazer,
I see... and how do I verify my HAL again?

If I go to Device Manager; Click on "Computer"; Advanced Configuration and Power Interface (ACPI) PC; properties for this says; ROOT\ACPI_HAL\0000

Is this what ur talking about?

If both say AdvConf&PI (ACPI) PC, then you're fine. Change the HDD controller to "Standard PCI IDE Controller" and you'll be fine.

 

[dclive]

Originally posted by: Timsa20
Blazer,
Let me see if I have this right. What you are sayin is that this windows, embeded "Mobo/Processor" fingerprint on my C:boot drive in the Dell machine now, will go NUTS and probably BSOD if put into the case with the ASUS/AMD processor?

So it's a "simple" matter of having XP's fingerprint ignored or rewritten when the OS is moved to the ASUS/AMD platform. Hmmmmmm.....

1. What would happen if I created a system restore point and burned it onto a CD.
2. Then I drag all the hardware out of the Dell and put it into the ASUS/AMD.
3. Then I install a NEW, clean hard drive into the ASUS/AMD and load XP onto that new drive.
4. THEN do a "Restore" to the restore point I created on the CD.

The more I think about this, I realize that I'm probably not the first person in the world who wanted to upgrade the Mobo/processor combination that lives UNDER the winXP operating system (this is essentially what I want to do). It shouldn't be this tough (thanks Mr. Gates). Somebody should write an application to make this easier.

I'm off to tear up the web to hunt for possible apps!

(How 'bout I shave that rabbit to make him a bit smaller?)

No. The HALs appear to match, so just change your IDE controller to the PCI Standard IDE, shut down, and move your hard drive from old case to new case, and you should be fine. Confirm it boots OK, then move the rest of your hardware over.

This isn't tough - I've said it already, I'll repeat: 2 things must be true: The HAL must match, and the new system must be capable of booting using the hard drive controller(s) you have installed in the XP registry (ie the HDD controllers that are installed), hence my suggestion to change the IDE controller to Standard PCI IDE Controller prior to your last shutdown while powered up with the old MB.

 

[Blazer]

you are going to lose your XP install anyway

YES if you have a new hard drive use it and setup the sys and install XP {notenly have one HD connected on the new install to prevent XP from loading a boot string file to another HD},then install the drive that has the documents that you want and copy and paste{or use the files and settings wizard to transfer the files},then format/erase another HD and do the same to the other sys.

Take my word for it there is a greate advantage to a clean install

also install XP {and sp2},then the mobo inf files,then the other drivers

have no idea how the smilie got there! not by me

 

[dclive]

Originally posted by: blazer
you are going to lose your XP install anyway

YES if you have a new hard drive use it and setup the sys and install XP {notenly have one HD connected on the new install to prevent XP from loading a boot string file to another HD},then install the drive that has the documents that you want and copy and paste{or use the files and settings wizard to transfer the files},then format/erase another HD and do the same to the other sys.

Take my word for it there is a greate advantage to a clean install

also install XP {and sp2},then the mobo inf files,then the other drivers

You could do that - there's certainly no reason not to, if you like reinstalling XP, but if you just want to get things working, it's easiest just to move the hard drive over, once you've changed to the "Standard PCI IDE Controller" on the old computer and then shut it down.

 

[dclive]

Originally posted by: dclive
You could do that - there's certainly no reason not to, if you like reinstalling XP, but if you just want to get things working, it's easiest just to move the hard drive over, once you've changed to the "Standard PCI IDE Controller" on the old computer and then shut it down.

Why doesn't XP boot?

XP won't boot on different motherboards for two reasons (assuming an otherwise stable system): (1) Your HAL doesn't match, so it doesn't know how to talk to your hardware (there are only a few different HAL types; as long as it matches between the two motherboards, you're fine), and (2) the hard drive controller in the new system must have suitable drivers loaded in the XP registry so that XP will know how to boot the hard drives. If it can't boot/find the hard drives, you'll get bluescreens with STOP 7B errors.

All the additional sound cards/TV tuner cards/wrong video drivers/etc. in the world won't change this - none of that is a problem. The only issue is the HAL and the hard drive. The other stuff can easily be uninstalled later, once you've booted; none of it will stop you from booting, assuming an otherwise stable system (in other words, make sure everything works before you move hardware around).

Yes, when you move to different hardware a Microsoft 'audit' could happen, where you have to get on the internet and re-authorize your computer, but that has nothing to do with whether the machine will boot or not.

 

[Timsa20]

Blazer, dclive,
Thank you so much... you've both been so helpful!

I think I've just hit a major road block.

In the Dell machine, when I go to Device manager/Computer and check the sub line(under Computer) it says; "Advanced Configuration and Power Interface (ACPI) PC"

In the ASUS/AMD machine, when I go to Device manager/Computer and check the sub line (under Computer) it says; "ACPI Uniprocessor PC"

If I'm looking in the right place, and at the right information in each of these systems.... then they sure are not *exactly* alike at all.

Is this rabbit stuck in the hat for good???? From what you've both said (I think), this "upgrade" isn't going to happen the way I had planned is it? Looks like I'll be re-installing XP on BOTH systems?

Tanks again folks....

Igor.... grab a shovel and lets bury this corpse.

 

[dclive]

Originally posted by: Timsa20
Blazer, dclive,
Thank you so much... you've both been so helpful!

I think I've just hit a major road block.

In the Dell machine, when I go to Device manager/Computer and check the sub line(under Computer) it says; "Advanced Configuration and Power Interface (ACPI) PC"

In the ASUS/AMD machine, when I go to Device manager/Computer and check the sub line (under Computer) it says; "ACPI Uniprocessor PC"

If I'm looking in the right place, and at the right information in each of these systems.... then they sure are not *exactly* alike at all.

Is this rabbit stuck in the hat for good???? From what you've both said (I think), this "upgrade" isn't going to happen the way I had planned is it? Looks like I'll be re-installing XP on BOTH systems?

Tanks again folks....

Igor.... grab a shovel and lets bury this corpse.

You won't be able to move the drive over and boot; you can always do an upgrade in place / repair install, and that will probably let you boot; it's worth a shot.

 

[Timsa20]

I'm not sure if this is anything, but I stumbled on this at the Microsoft site....

How to force a Hardware Abstraction Layer during an upgrade or an installation of Windows XP

.
.
.
Force in a system HAL

To prevent Windows XP from automatically determining the system HAL during the upgrade or the installation of Windows XP, you can manually force in a system HAL. To force in a system Hardware Abstraction Layer (HAL) during an upgrade or installation of Windows XP, follow these steps:


Could you please check this link and see if this is what I've been looking for?

http://support.microsoft.com/d...x?scid=kb;en-us;299340

Thanks (keeping fingers crossed!!)

 

[dclive]

Originally posted by: Timsa20
I'm not sure if this is anything, but I stumbled on this at the Microsoft site....

How to force a Hardware Abstraction Layer during an upgrade or an installation of Windows XP

.
.
.
Force in a system HAL

To prevent Windows XP from automatically determining the system HAL during the upgrade or the installation of Windows XP, you can manually force in a system HAL. To force in a system Hardware Abstraction Layer (HAL) during an upgrade or installation of Windows XP, follow these steps:


Could you please check this link and see if this is what I've been looking for?

http://support.microsoft.com/d...x?scid=kb;en-us;299340

Thanks (keeping fingers crossed!!)

No, because you aren't setting a new system up - you're taking an existing system and attempting to move it. Try this:
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/309283

From there you can see a plain ACPI HAL can't move to an ACPI Uni HAL.

Sorry. Repair install or upgrade in place install if you want to try it, else just reinstall from scratch.

 

[Timsa20]

Thanks dclive,
I'll research both options (Repair install or Upgrade in place) and see which will be the best fit for me.

Thanks again for all the wisdom!