UPDATED: structural engineering report added - regards to a cracked house foundation?

[Greenman]

Uh... pretty sure 80% of the posts in the thread have said the same thing you are recommending about getting an engineers report.

Then 80% were right. I didn't read every post, I just offered my best advice.

 

[Imp]

Tons of experience with cracked foundations. My best advice is to ignore everything you've been told up till now. None of it matters, none of it has anything to do with the crack in your foundation. Get the engineers report, that will be all the information you need. It doesn't matter who hires the engineer, he's not going risk a lawsuit for a couple hundred bucks.

So, so, so, so , SOOOOO wrong.

People are greedy and stupid. Combine the two and you'd be amazed at what some are capable of.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Run like hell. I dealt with this last year. Vertical crack in my foundation which caused the floors to sag and walls to start pulling away from the ceiling. It is all fixed now after the foundation repairs by Ramjack $14,000 and then the drywall and framing damage and kitchen repairs almost another $14,000. So after $28,000 in repairs I am again whole but a lot poorer than I was. I was lucky I had the cash. I wouldn't want to relive the experience.

Ouch that sucks. And I thought my 14k weeping tile expense was crazy. There are some things that can be done DIY, but some things are just not worth it, such as foundation related stuff.

Edit: Oh and why would a structural engineer lie anyway? He's just going to get sent by whatever firm that was called, do his job, report back and that's the end of it. The engineer has no incentive to lie.

 

[Red Squirrel]

delete (hit new instead of edit)

 

[Greenman]

So, so, so, so , SOOOOO wrong.

People are greedy and stupid. Combine the two and you'd be amazed at what some are capable of.

Generally speaking, structural engineers aren't stupid, at least every one I've worked with has been reasonably bright. When he evaluates the cracked foundation, he's going to produce a written report. That report puts him on the hook, if there are future problems, his insurance will pay for them. He would have to be exceptionally stupid or greedy to buy tens of thousands of dollars in liability for a couple hundred bucks.
What's far more likely, and has in fact been my experience with every engineer I've ever dealt with, is that he'll take a very conservative approach and recommend extensive further study and repairs. This is all based on my experience here in California, we have a LOT of failures here, and engineers get sued to death every time something comes down.

 

[purbeast0]

so here are the scans of the structural engineering report that I received.

http://imageshack.us/f/827/scan0001g.png/
http://imageshack.us/f/859/scan0002fq.png/

i do not fully even understand what is going on in those, so if anyone wants to actually explain to me what it means that would be helpful too. i plan on calling the place tomorrow and asking them about the specific case as well, if they remember or have other records of it.

i was also told that all of the recommended work was performed when they finished the basement. i do plan to get the statements of work for that too.

 

[herm0016]

looks like they built a 2x10 stud wall in front of the concrete to provide support for the floor joists.

 

[K1052]

looks like they built a 2x10 stud wall in front of the concrete to provide support for the floor joists.

Looks a little more extensive since they specd joist hangers top and bottom and bolted the bottom plate to the slab. It's also shimmed tight to the existing cinder block wall so it should be stabilizing that too (presumably bowing inward due to ground pressure that caused the horizontal crack?). This assumes that the contractor doing the work did....ahem...exactly everything in the plan without deviation.

I'd be interested in another engineer's opinion to see if this is really a recommended long term fix were I the OP.

 

[drnickriviera]

Would that even work correctly? You may not be on the footer anymore when you move in. It could just be 2-3" of concrete floor there. Or was the wall built to not support the load from the floor, but to only brace the concrete wall?? That would explain the joist hangers on the inside of the wall,

edit. looks like that is exactly what it is. 2X10 on 12" centers could take a lot of load.

 

[K1052]

Would that even work correctly? You may not be on the footer anymore when you move in. It could just be 2-3" of concrete floor there. Or was the wall built to not support the load from the floor, but to only brace the concrete wall?? That would explain the joist hangers on the inside of the wall

Yea, it looks like they designed it to hold back the cinder block wall. Which is why I assume it was bowing inward. It would do double duty as supplemental joist support as well.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Yep, the only other way to fix it is to build a second interior wall with braces to carry the load. It's cheaper but harder to get the inspectors to sign off on. Cinder block for foundations suck.

Yep, the engineer is suggesting what I had said before. However, the hard part is getting the inspector to sign off on it. I recommend meeting with the inspector and discussing the plan before building it.

 

[purbeast0]

Yep, the engineer is suggesting what I had said before. However, the hard part is getting the inspector to sign off on it. I recommend meeting with the inspector and discussing the plan before building it.

well all of the work has already been performed according to the realtor. i requested the statements of work for what was done though, and am waiting to hear back in regards to that.

based on the report i posted, what do you estimate all of that work would have cost the current owners of the house?

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

well all of the work has already been performed according to the realtor. i requested the statements of work for what was done though, and am waiting to hear back in regards to that.

based on the report i posted, what do you estimate all of that work would have cost the current owners of the house?

Construction costs vary wildly by location. Was the work inspected previously. Were permits pulled and inspections done? I see drawings and measurements/specifications but, I don't see any write up or actual report. What is the engineer's opinion?

 

[Gunslinger08]

I am not an engineer, architect, or expert carpenter, but I wouldn't feel entirely confident in that as a homeowner. If the actual foundation wall is starting to push in from the force of the ground, I don't know how well the PT lumber "wall" will hold up. Clearly I don't know the underlying calculations, but that seems like an awful lot of weight/pressure to put on the wood in that direction, as well as the fasteners and slab. I think I saw an episode of Holmes on Homes where their foundation wall was pushing in and he ended up building an entire masonry wall that was a couple of feet thick to brace it up.

Though I guess your typical floor joists are 2x10 or 2x12 and they handle a lot of load. Are they usually PT? I'd be concerned about the PT boards shrinking as they dry out, which might require you to add more shims.

Again, this is my opinion as someone who knows almost nothing about this. I'd definitely talk to an engineer about it and see how they feel about the long term viability of this solution.

 

[Kreon]

I'll start this off this way: I am a graduating student who will be going into geotechnical engineering. That said, I am not there and can only offer layperson's advice. Nor am I offering any official advice, since I am not registered in Maryland.

EDIT: When I first read the thread, I had thought the work was going to be done, but hadn't been yet. I left everything I wrote before, but aded more commentary after some paragraphs.

That out of the way, I think you need to be worried. Masonry foundation makes me nervous to begin with. I am personally not a fan as they aren't a homogenous structure. I would avoid this house for that reason. Also, cracks in a foundation should be a giant red flag, especially if you can't know if they have been there since the first few months the house has been built (time period depends on underlaying soil conditions, granular soils or clay).

The cracking should worry you. In things like this, the width of the crack is the issue. Vertical cracks can indicate a number of different things. I am not there nor do I know much about soil conditions in Maryland. In New England, cracks like that are usually caused by the water table rising. EDIT: Check to see if there have been water problems around the crack. You'll likely need ot remove the sheetrock there.

As far as the design goes, there are 2 things that bother me personally. The first and most important is that the structural engineer seems to realize there will be water problems (as he should with a crack in the basement), yet does not spec and vapor barrier. Vapor barriers may not be something in Maryland, but in New England they are often required for placing studded walls with sheetrock in basements (though I'm not sure if you have sheetrock, it isn't in the plan). If no sheetrock you may not need the vapor barrier. Personally, if you think you might ever want to finish the basement, have them put in vapor barrier now. It will save you so many headaches in the future. And make sure they don't put the vapor barrier up with staples... EDIT: In rereading the thread, it seems there was sheetrock on it. Absolutely make sure there is vapor barrier in there.

The other thing that bothers me is that your engineer assumes the soil pressure to be 45 psf. I don't know the soil conditions there, but that seems kind of low for the bottom of the foundation. If the foundation is 7.5 ft (ish), and the soil outside is a pretty average granular fill of about 120 pcf, the vertical pressure at the bottom of the footing is about 900psf. Using an assumed K value of .1, that equates 90 psf at the bottom of the foundation. However, the structural engineer may be taking an averaged value (as at the top the pressure is 0, resulting in an average of 45 psf) which is fine. Or, there may be much lighter soils or a lower K value. I don't think he did anything wrong, but it is ambigious. I would ask him about it. There is, of course, also the probability I am missing something somewhere (since I'm not there, and don't know all of the specifics).

As far as his structure goes, it looks fine to me. But I have no experience with foundation bracing like that, so I can't speak about that.

Did he give you a written report with this?

Also, if you want another opinion (encouraged), have a geotechnical engineer look at it, specifically one that focusses in foundations. EDIT: Absolutely do this now. Get someone to look at it. Also, make sure there were permits pulled for it and it was approved by an inspector.

In my opinion, I would not purchase the house, just due the foundation.

And again, I am not an expert of registered in the state of Maryland. None of the advice I give should be taken as engineering advisement.

 

[Imp]

UPDATE 7/15/12

so here are the scans of the structural engineering report that I received.

http://imageshack.us/f/827/scan0001g.png/
http://imageshack.us/f/859/scan0002fq.png/

i do not fully even understand what is going on in those, so if anyone wants to actually explain to me what it means that would be helpful too. i plan on calling the place tomorrow and asking them about the specific case as well, if they remember or have other records of it.

i was also told that all of the recommended work was performed when they finished the basement. i do plan to get the statements of work for that too.

From the OP, I was expecting an engineer's assessment.

That report looks like they got an engineer to design a permanent wood bracing/support system for that wall. I'm assuming that the engineer found that the masonry wall was defective and needed to be fixed, or assumed it was defective and bracing it was the cheaper option.

You want to buy a house and when you sell it in the future tell everyone that one wall is f*cked and had to be "fixed" by adding a new wall?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

So if I understand you correctly the drawings show the existing fix that the current owners have implemented or are implementing?

If that is the case I would recommend that you run away from this place and never look back. They are not fixing the cause of the problem, they are slapping a temporary band-aid on the issue and are clearly trying to get away with the cheapest possible fix so they can sell the place and wash their hands of the problem.

If there are any moisture issues at all, and likely there already are since the drawings call for an underslab drain, even p.t. wood is going to rot eventually. When it does that wood bracing become useless as a bracing against the wall bowing and as a joist support, not to mention the potential mold issues that could crop up in the interim. As already mentioned, the drawings don't show any moisture barrier between the foundation wall and wood. Even if there is little to no seepage through that crack it is still begging for moisture/mold problems due to the temperature variations the material will encounters.

If you do decide to get this house, be prepared to dish out some serious money down the road to fix the problem properly because it's not being done right at this point.

 

[purbeast0]

yes, what i posted i believe is what has already been put in place. i am going to get the statements of work hopefully tomorrow.

additionally i am 100% sure they also waterproofed the basement as well. i'm not sure if that was when they did this same fix as well.

i am going to find out if there is another report or anything that says what the actual problem is, not just what the fix is.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

I don't understand why people come to a place like this to get advice about something that could cost them tens of thousands of dollars instead of hiring qualified professionals.

The initial question I suppose I get. But a bunch of people have all told you the same thing: the issue is serious, and you need people who know what they are talking about. And yet you're posting engineering reports in a thread that lands next to other threads about hot babes and fart jokes.

Sorry to be blunt, but you need to take this seriously before you do something you're going to regret.

 

[purbeast0]

I don't understand why people come to a place like this to get advice about something that could cost them tens of thousands of dollars instead of hiring qualified professionals.

The initial question I suppose I get. But a bunch of people have all told you the same thing: the issue is serious, and you need people who know what they are talking about. And yet you're posting engineering reports in a thread that lands next to other threads about hot babes and fart jokes.

Sorry to be blunt, but you need to take this seriously before you do something you're going to regret.

if you read the thread, you would see that i didn't come in here asking for advice on what to do.

 

[Phokus]

I was looking at a house on the market and i noticed a couple of cracks... is this anything to worry about?

 

[Kreon]

I don't understand why people come to a place like this to get advice about something that could cost them tens of thousands of dollars instead of hiring qualified professionals.

The initial question I suppose I get. But a bunch of people have all told you the same thing: the issue is serious, and you need people who know what they are talking about. And yet you're posting engineering reports in a thread that lands next to other threads about hot babes and fart jokes.

Sorry to be blunt, but you need to take this seriously before you do something you're going to regret.

Asking for advice on ATOT is like asking for advice down at the pub. You get a variety various experiences and levels of expertise, from which you can gauge how serious the issue is so you can go ask a professional.

additionally i am 100% sure they also waterproofed the basement as well. i'm not sure if that was when they did this same fix as well.

Make 100% sure they did, and did it right (meaning it was inspected).

If there are any moisture issues at all, and likely there already are since the drawings call for an underslab drain, even p.t. wood is going to rot eventually. When it does that wood bracing become useless as a bracing against the wall bowing and as a joist support, not to mention the potential mold issues that could crop up in the interim. As already mentioned, the drawings don't show any moisture barrier between the foundation wall and wood. Even if there is little to no seepage through that crack it is still begging for moisture/mold problems due to the temperature variations the material will encounters.

The slab drain was already there and in most cases required by code no matter what. That said, everything else you said in this paragraph is completely valid. Especially the part about the drawings. It is an extremely rare contractor who will add things that aren't specced in the drawings. Also a foolish one (as it opens them up to the liability). If vapor barrier isn't in the drawings of record (which should be the ones with town, assuming it was permitted), it likely isn't there unless installed later with no permitting.

 

[SandEagle]

dude, fvck it and move on. why spend years worrying about it? i personally wouldn't buy a house if i saw it had those cracks. you'll find something better.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

if you read the thread, you would see that i didn't come in here asking for advice on what to do.

I'm the guy who was discussing the issue with you yesterday. I just hate to see people looking for advice on complex subjects in a place like this.

 

[purbeast0]

I'm the guy who was discussing the issue with you yesterday. I just hate to see people looking for advice on complex subjects in a place like this.

yea i mean i'm not going to make my decision of what i do based only on a thread i posted on ATOT, so don't think that