*UPDATED* New TV - Any reason not to wait?

[Apex]

Originally posted by: hopeless74

Originally posted by: sdifox
Panasonic did pick up the technology from Pioneer so expect the Pannies to top Kuros soon.

Where did you hear this?

@Chris how can a CRT compare with a Kuro for 1080p content?

plus, the Kuros have much better detail and black levels than most projectors

Matsushita hired the ~120 or so plasma engineers from Pioneer.

A G90 CRT projector in perfect condition, with new tubes, and perfect calibration may be able to resolve 1080p, but just barely. Of course, they don't manufacture them anymore...

A $13k BVMA20F1U production CRT may come reasonably close to the quality of a Kuro, but it can't match the resolution.

Considering a calibrated KRP-500m will measure out at about .001 ft-lamberts, have far better ANSI contrast than a CRT, far better resolution, and much flatter greyscale tracking, I'd say they've already surpassed em.

If anyone has seen a front projector or CRT with better results than this... please do post the charts:

http://www.controlcal.com/foru...entid=461&d=1250558287

http://www.controlcal.com/foru...entid=462&d=1250558287

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: Apex

Originally posted by: hopeless74

Originally posted by: sdifox
Panasonic did pick up the technology from Pioneer so expect the Pannies to top Kuros soon.

Where did you hear this?

@Chris how can a CRT compare with a Kuro for 1080p content?

plus, the Kuros have much better detail and black levels than most projectors

Matsushita hired the ~120 or so plasma engineers from Pioneer.

A G90 CRT projector in perfect condition, with new tubes, and perfect calibration may be able to resolve 1080p, but just barely. Of course, they don't manufacture them anymore...

A $13k BVMA20F1U production CRT may come reasonably close to the quality of a Kuro, but it can't match the resolution.

Considering a calibrated KRP-500m will measure out at about .001 ft-lamberts, have far better ANSI contrast than a CRT, far better resolution, and much flatter greyscale tracking, I'd say they've already surpassed em.

If anyone has seen a front projector or CRT with better results than this... please do post the charts:

http://www.controlcal.com/foru...entid=461&d=1250558287

http://www.controlcal.com/foru...entid=462&d=1250558287

They won't because the people posting this nonsense have no idea what they're talking about. They just love talking out their ass.

Bringing up a CRT is borderline retarded when comparing it to some like a KRP-500m. And bringing up a projector in comparison is ALMOST as retarded. I say almost, because a projector is still relevant, it's just a totally different animal.

 

[Muadib]

Originally posted by: JackBurton

Originally posted by: Apex

Originally posted by: hopeless74

Originally posted by: sdifox
Panasonic did pick up the technology from Pioneer so expect the Pannies to top Kuros soon.

Where did you hear this?

@Chris how can a CRT compare with a Kuro for 1080p content?

plus, the Kuros have much better detail and black levels than most projectors

Matsushita hired the ~120 or so plasma engineers from Pioneer.

A G90 CRT projector in perfect condition, with new tubes, and perfect calibration may be able to resolve 1080p, but just barely. Of course, they don't manufacture them anymore...

A $13k BVMA20F1U production CRT may come reasonably close to the quality of a Kuro, but it can't match the resolution.

Considering a calibrated KRP-500m will measure out at about .001 ft-lamberts, have far better ANSI contrast than a CRT, far better resolution, and much flatter greyscale tracking, I'd say they've already surpassed em.

If anyone has seen a front projector or CRT with better results than this... please do post the charts:

http://www.controlcal.com/foru...entid=461&d=1250558287

http://www.controlcal.com/foru...entid=462&d=1250558287

They won't because the people posting this nonsense have no idea what they're talking about. They just love talking out their ass.

Bringing up a CRT is borderline retarded when comparing it to some like a KRP-500m. And bringing up a projector in comparison is ALMOST as retarded. I say almost, because a projector is still relevant, it's just a totally different animal.

Another reason they won't is because they would have to join another vB forum in order to see what they're up against. I'm sorry, but it just ain't worth it.

 

[dwell]

Originally posted by: hopeless74

Originally posted by: sdifox
Panasonic did pick up the technology from Pioneer so expect the Pannies to top Kuros soon.

Where did you hear this?

@Chris how can a CRT compare with a Kuro for 1080p content?

plus, the Kuros have much better detail and black levels than most projectors

The statement was:

PQ of plasma is BETTER than all other technologies.

And I was correcting him. But of course dare you speak ill of plasma and the Kuro Kult will track you down.

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: Chris
The statement was:

PQ of plasma is BETTER than all other technologies.

And I was correcting him. But of course dare you speak ill of plasma and the Kuro Kult will track you down.

You're not correcting anything. Your statement was wrong, plain and simple. It is not a coincidence that Pioneer Elites have become the standard and are always ranked number 1 in HDTV reviews.

Again, comparing a CRT to a Kuro is borderline retarded. And comparing a projector is another ridiculous comparison. Can a $35,000 SIM2 projector outperform a Kuro. Most likely. But again, it's $35,000. And no, an average projector isn't going to outperform a Kuro. Sorry to burst your bubble.

 

[dwell]

Originally posted by: JackBurton
You're not correcting anything. Your statement was wrong, plain and simple. It is not a coincidence that Pioneer Elites have become the standard and are always ranked number 1 in HDTV reviews.

Again, comparing a CRT to a Kuro is borderline retarded. And comparing a projector is another ridiculous comparison. Can a $35,000 SIM2 projector outperform a Kuro. Most likely. But again, it's $35,000. And no, an average projector isn't going to outperform a Kuro. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Does my $400 Sony Trinitron from 2002 outperform most plasmas sold today (outside of overall resolution)? Yes. So, my point stands.

You can't just take the top of the line plasma and make a blanket statement like "plasma outperforms all other technologies" because it's bullshit. This is all just a bunch of corksniffing wankers trying to justify their investment in a top of the line set.

 

[yours truly]

Chris, sorry mate you're talking out of your arsehole. You really believe your cheap TV can outperform a top end plasma? In what sense? - standard definition maybe, in every other respect a decent plasma will blow it out of the water

I'd really like to see a Pixar blu ray on your TV.

btw, I did hook my old 19" Trinitron monitor and Kuro KRP600A both to my computer running at 1080p, and there was absolutely no contest, the PQ on the Pioneer was stunning.

Stay in your little bubble fella, believe what you want, everyone else knows why (including so called experts) the Kuro's are the best TV's in the world

Jealous much?

 

[dwell]

Originally posted by: hopeless74
Chris, sorry mate you're talking out of your arsehole. You really believe your cheap TV can outperform a top end plasma? In what sense? - standard definition maybe, in every other respect a decent plasma will blow it out of the water

I'd really like to see a Pixar blu ray on your TV.

btw, I did hook my old 19" Trinitron monitor and Kuro KRP600A both to my computer running at 1080p, and there was absolutely no contest, the PQ on the Pioneer was stunning.

Stay in your little bubble fella, believe what you want, everyone else knows why (including so called experts) the Kuro's are the best TV's in the world

Read the fucking post, I said most plasmas. Seriously, Kuro owners are the biggest cunts on Earth. Everything comes back to *your* set, when the topic was plasma technology vs CRT. Last I checked, the majority of plasmas sold were not Kuros. In fact, the Pioneer business model worked out so well they stopped making Kuro plasmas altogether.

Jealous much?

Jealous of what? If I wanted to spend top dollar on a Kuro I would buy one. I am buying a new set when I move and it will probably be a Panasonic G11 if they are out around then. The thousand some odd dollars I save in not getting a Pioneer (if they are even around then) will be worth tremendous price delta *to me*.

This kind of stupid snobbery goes on in all assets of life (console vs PC, Gibson vs Epiphone, Mac vs PC).

 

[yours truly]

Originally posted by: Chris
Seriously, Kuro owners are the biggest cunts on Earth.

Oh really, you sound like one yourself.

You said your $400 dollar trinitron would outperform most plasmas today. Please enlighten us in what respect?

 

[dwell]

Originally posted by: hopeless74
You said your $400 dollar trinitron would outperform most plasmas today. Please enlighten us in what respect?

Black levels, for starters.

 

[kalrith]

Originally posted by: Chris
If I wanted to spend top dollar on a Kuro I would buy one. I am buying a new set when I move and it will probably be a Panasonic G11 if they are out around then. The thousand some odd dollars I save in not getting a Pioneer (if they are even around then) will be worth tremendous price delta *to me*.

This kind of stupid snobbery goes on in all assets of life (console vs PC, Gibson vs Epiphone, Mac vs PC).

Panasonic has a 50" 1080P plasma for $685 shipped (i.e. $1000 less than the Kuro mentioned in the OP)?

I agree with hopeless74. You sound like the very snob (except a CRT snob) that you're accusing us of being.

 

[Apex]

Originally posted by: Chris

Originally posted by: hopeless74
You said your $400 dollar trinitron would outperform most plasmas today. Please enlighten us in what respect?

Black levels, for starters.

The $13,665 professional postproduction Trinitron CRT monitor mentioned above has a black level of .01 ft/lamberts after calibration, which has already been surpassed by your run-of-the-mill Panasonic V series plasma (.008 ft/lamberts).

How much lower is your black level than the pro one?

 

[dwell]

Originally posted by: Apex
The $13,665 professional postproduction Trinitron CRT monitor mentioned above has a black level of .01 ft/lamberts after calibration, which has already been surpassed by your run-of-the-mill Panasonic V series plasma (.008 ft/lamberts).

How much lower is your black level than the pro one?

Which is why Home Theater Mag (I think they're more authoritative than you, sorry) claims if you want to get better than the .004 ftl than the Kuro, you need to get a projector or CRT.

Let's start with the big one. The black level, as measured in our lab, is 0.004 foot-lamberts. For comparison, the best black level we've measured on a plasma previously was 0.012 ft-L, which was a Panasonic TH-42PX60U. The best black level on an LCD we've ever measured was 0.006 ft-L on the Sharp LC-52D92U. So that 0.004 ft-L is lower than any other flat panel we've ever measured. While excellent, it's still not black. As in, you can still see when the TV is on or tell the black letterbox bars from the dark room beyond. I know, I'm asking for a lot. I mean, you'd have to get a projector and a pretty big screen to reach a better black level (or, admittedly, a CRT). But as impressive as that measurement is, it isn't even the amazing part.

http://hometheatermag.com/flat-panels/907kuro/

 

[Apex]

Originally posted by: Chris

Originally posted by: Apex
The $13,665 professional postproduction Trinitron CRT monitor mentioned above has a black level of .01 ft/lamberts after calibration, which has already been surpassed by your run-of-the-mill Panasonic V series plasma (.008 ft/lamberts).

How much lower is your black level than the pro one?

Which is why Home Theater Mag (I think they're more authoritative than you, sorry) claims if you want to get better than the .004 ftl than the Kuro, you need to get a projector or CRT.

Let's start with the big one. The black level, as measured in our lab, is 0.004 foot-lamberts. For comparison, the best black level we've measured on a plasma previously was 0.012 ft-L, which was a Panasonic TH-42PX60U. The best black level on an LCD we've ever measured was 0.006 ft-L on the Sharp LC-52D92U. So that 0.004 ft-L is lower than any other flat panel we've ever measured. While excellent, it's still not black. As in, you can still see when the TV is on or tell the black letterbox bars from the dark room beyond. I know, I'm asking for a lot. I mean, you'd have to get a projector and a pretty big screen to reach a better black level (or, admittedly, a CRT). But as impressive as that measurement is, it isn't even the amazing part.

http://hometheatermag.com/flat-panels/907kuro/

Fair enough, I think they are more of an authority than me too. They have the measurements of any CRT that beats it, or is that just an assumption from back when they used the LS-100?

 

[dwell]

Originally posted by: Apex
Fair enough, I think they are more of an authority than me too. They have the measurements of any CRT that beats it, or is that just an assumption from back when they used the LS-100?

Well, with nothing on screen (which is how I imagine they got .004 ftl on the Kuro) the CRT is not illuminating at all (where the plasma has precharge to contend with) -- it's basically 0.000 vs 0.004. At the end of the day though, the point is, relying on this metrics can be highly misleading.

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: Chris

Originally posted by: Apex
The $13,665 professional postproduction Trinitron CRT monitor mentioned above has a black level of .01 ft/lamberts after calibration, which has already been surpassed by your run-of-the-mill Panasonic V series plasma (.008 ft/lamberts).

How much lower is your black level than the pro one?

Which is why Home Theater Mag (I think they're more authoritative than you, sorry) claims if you want to get better than the .004 ftl than the Kuro, you need to get a projector or CRT.

Let's start with the big one. The black level, as measured in our lab, is 0.004 foot-lamberts. For comparison, the best black level we've measured on a plasma previously was 0.012 ft-L, which was a Panasonic TH-42PX60U. The best black level on an LCD we've ever measured was 0.006 ft-L on the Sharp LC-52D92U. So that 0.004 ft-L is lower than any other flat panel we've ever measured. While excellent, it's still not black. As in, you can still see when the TV is on or tell the black letterbox bars from the dark room beyond. I know, I'm asking for a lot. I mean, you'd have to get a projector and a pretty big screen to reach a better black level (or, admittedly, a CRT). But as impressive as that measurement is, it isn't even the amazing part.

http://hometheatermag.com/flat-panels/907kuro/

HT may know what they are talking about, unfortunately you don't. That is a 2007 model 8G Kuro genius (yet another example of your ignorance). The KRP we are discussing is a 2009 9.5G Kuro. 9 & 9.5G Kuros have a significantly deeper black level. And no, no CRT measures 0 idle luminance. If you know of one, please post the model and idle light measurement. Maybe they store it in a secret location that only you know about. And while I'm at it, here is what HTM says about the current gen Pioneer Kuro (111FD):

And certainly no one will complain about the Pioneer?s reproduction of blacks and shadow detail. It?s truly mind-blowing to see the star fields in Stargate: Continuum, the belowdecks scenes at the beginning of Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World, and the darkest scenes in Batman Begins as they were meant to be seen. No gray haze. No washed-out areas. No uneven, muddy appearance. And, most importantly, nothing takes you out of a film. Some users might comment that the Pioneer?s blacks are unrealistic because you?ll never see blacks this rich and deep in a movie theater, but I suspect that most filmmakers wish you could.

Hey don't they use projectors in movie theaters? Weird. I thought your awesome data refutes that. :roll:

Here's another quote:

These blacks approach the accuracy threshold of the professional-grade instruments we use to measure them.

Again, a CRT DOES NOT outperform a current gen Kuro, and even more importantly, it doesn't even complete with ANY flat panel displays. Let me make this REALLY simple for you to understand Chris. If someone wanted THE BEST HDTV and wanted THE BEST PQ, he'd be looking at a Kuro. If someone prefers the look of an LCD and wants the best PQ LCD provides, they'd be looking for a Samsung or Sony LCD. CRT doesn't even enter in the equation. They don't make CRTs anymore, and if they did they are too small. Are you going to argue that an OLED display outperforms a Kuro? Hey, that seems logical to you right? Comparing a 11" OLED display with a 50" display? :roll:

As for a projector, you'll need a REALLY nice projector to outperform a Kuro. And quite honestly, if I had the choice of watching a movie on a Kuro or a SIM2 projector, I'd be watching it on the projector. No questions about it. It's just a different experience. But I think everyone knows a projector doesn't really compete with flat panels. Well, everyone except for you.



And by the way, I had a $1000 2001 Sony G500 monitor, and it definitely didn't outperform a 9G Kuro's PQ. Sorry. Do you have any other crap you'd like to make up?

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: Chris

Originally posted by: Apex
Fair enough, I think they are more of an authority than me too. They have the measurements of any CRT that beats it, or is that just an assumption from back when they used the LS-100?

Well, with nothing on screen (which is how I imagine they got .004 ftl on the Kuro) the CRT is not illuminating at all (where the plasma has precharge to contend with) -- it's basically 0.000 vs 0.004. At the end of the day though, the point is, relying on this metrics can be highly misleading.

Please post the CRT that has 0 idle lum.

 

[CubanlB]

Pretty much what jack said.

However, my speakers have a lower idle luminance than your crt. Suck it. (I know, not funny... I'm sorry)

If you're sitting on a case of unopened kyroII cards I'll take one off your hands.

(Also, Waiting to get one of the last 151fd's, as long as no more get stolen out of our warehouse)

 

[dwell]

Originally posted by: JackBurton
HT may know what they are talking about, unfortunately you don't. That is a 2007 model 8G Kuro genius (yet another example of your ignorance). The KRP we are discussing is a 2009 9.5G Kuro. 9 & 9.5G Kuros have a significantly deeper black level. And no, no CRT measures 0 idle luminance. If you know of one, please post the model and idle light measurement.

As I was saying, it's a misleading measurement. I'm sure a lot of the LED LCDs had 0.00 off ftl measurements as well.

Hey don't they use projectors in movie theaters? Weird. I thought your awesome data refutes that. :roll:

Then you contradict yourself:

As for a projector, you'll need a REALLY nice projector to outperform a Kuro.

Which is it?

And to the point, the original statement was:

PQ of plasma is BETTER than all other technologies.

To which I said:

Plasma is only better than LCD. CRT and projectors outright rape plasma in PQ.

And the statement holds true. We were not talking about any specific viewing environment, we were talking strictly about technology.

These blacks approach the accuracy threshold of the professional-grade instruments we use to measure them.

There's also the diminishing returns when it comes to blacks. Per CNET:

We love deep blacks on HDTVs. Nothing makes a picture pop more than rich blacks, and it's the the biggest component of what makes an image look good. That being said, the closer we get to "absolute black" and infinite contrast ratios, the less incremental increases in black level affect the overall picture quality--in our experience. When we compared the PDP-5020FD and the TH-50PZ800U side-by-side, there was no doubt the that Pioneer is the black-level king, but both sets are so good at getting dark that we felt that color accuracy wound up being a more important factor--and the Panasonic easily trumped Pioneer in this regard.

Ouch. So much your statement:

Kuros are for people that don't want to settle for a G10.

And the Panny they are talking about is not even a G10. lol.

If someone wanted THE BEST HDTV and wanted THE BEST PQ, he'd be looking at a Kuro. If someone prefers the look of an LCD and wants the best PQ LCD provides, they'd be looking for a Samsung or Sony LCD. CRT doesn't even enter in the equation. They don't make CRTs anymore

They don't even make Kuro displays anymore, do they? The business model of uber expensive sets to cork sniffers like yourself worked out really well for Pioneer, didn't it?

If the average consumer goes to Amazon looking for a 50" set they see:

$3,499.99

$1,300

If the on-paper black levels are worth paying $2,200 more for you, well, good luck with all that. And they arguably don't even have the best PQ, especially the 9G with the gimped picture controls. But hey, if you're paying 3,500 for a set, what's another $500 for ISF calibration? (yeah I know you can get a 5020 for much cheaper, but point stands)

Are you going to argue that an OLED display outperforms a Kuro? Hey, that seems logical to you right? Comparing a 11" OLED display with a 50" display? :roll:

Nope. I already stated many times on this forum that OLED suffers from the same sample-and-hold drawbacks as LCD.

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: Chris
As I was saying, it's a misleading measurement. I'm sure a lot of the LED LCDs had 0.00 off ftl measurements as well.

Please explain how it is misleading when comparing a CRT and plasma's light measurements. I'd like to hear this. With an LED LCD, it is a different story. Turning off all LED zones to reach 0 idle lum to display a total black screen doesn't really count.

Then you contradict yourself:

As for a projector, you'll need a REALLY nice projector to outperform a Kuro.


Which is it?

No contradiction. I'm giving projectors the benefit of the doubt which was more than HTM says about them.

To which I said:

Plasma is only better than LCD. CRT and projectors outright rape plasma in PQ.


And the statement holds true. We were not talking about any specific viewing environment, we were talking strictly about technology.

You've already lost the battle with CRT vs plasma, and HTM has already said the 111FD can reach a deeper black level than theaters, so what else do you need?

There's also the diminishing returns when it comes to blacks. Per CNET:

We love deep blacks on HDTVs. Nothing makes a picture pop more than rich blacks, and it's the the biggest component of what makes an image look good. That being said, the closer we get to "absolute black" and infinite contrast ratios, the less incremental increases in black level affect the overall picture quality--in our experience. When we compared the PDP-5020FD and the TH-50PZ800U side-by-side, there was no doubt the that Pioneer is the black-level king, but both sets are so good at getting dark that we felt that color accuracy wound up being a more important factor--and the Panasonic easily trumped Pioneer in this regard.


Ouch. So much your statement:

Kuros are for people that don't want to settle for a G10.


And the Panny they are talking about is not even a G10. lol.

What's funny is how you are trying to wiggle out of this. It's pretty much well known that the 5020 lacks the accuracy due to Pioneer limiting the controls. With the 5020 there are some compromises, but the pluses DEFINITELY outweigh the negatives when comparing it to a G10 let alone an 800U. Differences that HT doesn't even bring up. Now if you want a no compromise Kuro (50"), that would be the KRP500M which is about the same price as the 5020. Deepest black level of any Kuro and color accuracy second to none. Do you want me to say it again? Kuros are for people that don't want to settle for a G10.

And by the way, if your emphasis is on color accuracy, the G10 falls behind the latest Samsung plasmas too. Sorry.

They don't even make Kuro displays anymore, do they? The business model of uber expensive sets to cork sniffers like yourself worked out really well for Pioneer, didn't it?

They don't make them anymore, but they are still available to purchase. And Pioneer's model was to make the best HDTV, period. No compromises. The only compromise they made was to differentiate their "lower end" model verses their high end model, however the tech was the same. Pioneer set the standard with the Kuro in 2007 and again in 2008 and has yet to be surpassed. You can throw all your jealous tirades all you want, but facts are facts. And every professional review says the Pioneer Elite still hold the crown for PQ and performance. Unfortunately delivering the best HD tech to the market wasn't what the market really wanted. The market wanted cheap, average tech. So in short, that's why Pioneer is no longer here.

If the average consumer goes to Amazon looking for a 50" set they see:

$3,499.99

$1,300

If the on-paper black levels are worth paying $2,200 more for you, well, good luck with all that. And they arguably don't even have the best PQ, especially the 9G with the gimped picture controls. But hey, if you're paying 3,500 for a set, what's another $500 for ISF calibration? (yeah I know you can get a 5020 for much cheaper, but point stands)

:roll: They'll also see this @ $1999. Deepest blacks of any Pioneer, including the 111FD and just as accurate as the Elite series. Any other worthless points you'd like to make?

And BTW, this will be the last time I address your posts item by item. I can't believe I wasted this much time on you already. Your motive is clear. You're like a little jealous kid that can't stand for someone to have something better than he does. Pretty pathetic if you ask me.

 

[dwell]

Originally posted by: JackBurton
You've already lost the battle with CRT vs plasma, and HTM has already said the 111FD can reach a deeper black level than theaters, so what else do you need?

Seeing how this "budget" projector from 2007 reached 0.002 ftl while the 2007 Kuro was at 0.004, I don't see how this proves Kuro has better black levels than projection.

http://www.avrev.com/home-thea...video-projector-2.html

And BTW, this will be the last time I address your posts item by item. I can't believe I wasted this much time on you already. Your motive is clear. You're like a little jealous kid that can't stand for someone to have something better than he does. Pretty pathetic if you ask me.

Jealous little kid, lol. I could go out right now and purchase five Kuro Elites from my checking account alone. Point is, and has always been, you Kuro Kultists need to get off your high horses and realize what twats you sound like, jumping in every thread extolling the virtues of your overpriced sets. No better than Apple users.

 

[JackBurton]

Originally posted by: Chris

Originally posted by: JackBurton
You've already lost the battle with CRT vs plasma, and HTM has already said the 111FD can reach a deeper black level than theaters, so what else do you need?

Seeing how this "budget" projector from 2007 reached 0.002 ftl while the 2007 Kuro was at 0.004, I don't see how this proves Kuro has better black levels than projection.

http://www.avrev.com/home-thea...video-projector-2.html

And BTW, this will be the last time I address your posts item by item. I can't believe I wasted this much time on you already. Your motive is clear. You're like a little jealous kid that can't stand for someone to have something better than he does. Pretty pathetic if you ask me.

Jealous little kid, lol. I could go out right now and purchase five Kuro Elites from my checking account alone. Point is, and has always been, you Kuro Kultists need to get off your high horses and realize what twats you sound like, jumping in every thread extolling the virtues of your overpriced sets. No better than Apple users.

lol. It's obvious that as soon as I post something, you go running off to Google to find some scrap of "evidence" to support your "argument." Seriously, give it up. Professional reviews pretty much all agree that the 9G Kuro Elites hold the crown for PQ. Deal with it. I'm not going to go off on a projector comparison tangent again because like I said, that is something totally different and doesn't really compete with flat panels.


And if you can afford a Kuro and are unwilling to purchase one, that's not my problem. You obviously put less emphasis on video quality than someone else might. However, for people that want the best PQ and performance money can buy and are willing to pay for it, Pioneer is where it's at. Don't like it? Too bad. It's not my problem you can't accept reality. But I'm definitely not going to steer someone in the wrong direction when asking about a TV because of some moronic ulterior motive. That is just deceptive, plain and simple. Especially when someone is going to make an expensive purchase like this.