Consider something like the Ruger Mk II Government Target (bull barrel) - You can burn .22LR to your hearts content chasing cans or poking paper; yet it's plenty accurate "out of the box" for small game hunting (where SA pistols are legal) or entry-level competition use.
The added heft of the heavy barrel also makes it an excellent "semi-auto familiarisation" piece for beginning shooters, teaching all the pertinant operation and safety routines without being the least bit intimidating before they move up to heavier calibers. It has always been the first firearm I use to introduce a new shooter to our sport. You can find them new for around $225, and used for under $175. IMO - used is the better deal, as they may be dirty, or have finish flaws, but these puppies never wear out.
I currently have a PT-101 Taurus and a Model 96 Beretta (both are .40 S&W). I agree with Tominator: Consider a Taurus (the basic design was licensed from Beretta). There are minor differences in cosmetics and safety location / function. Both firearms have visual and tactile "loaded chamber" indicators (Moonbeam - take note!
). The PT-101 was $350 (used - like new).
I further emphatically state that Glock pistols are NOT for inexperienced shooters! Sorry if I'm goring anybody's ox here, but the trigger-safety design greatly increases the chances of an "Accidental Discharge" when holstering the firearm - That's a fact, and there's AD incident reports to back it up. Obviously, that's an "operator error" issue; but you'd better accept two significant points:
First, an "AD incident" is a Very Bad Thing (tm) to have in your personnel file, so if there's any way to avoid official notice, it will be persued (and that means the occurance is even more frequent than any stats may indicate);
And second, if the people who trained with, and regularly use these firearms are not immune to the complacency that actually causes an AD, then it's obviously not a good choice for entry-level shooters or someone that makes it to the range for an afternoon every month or two.
I am not trashing the Glock design - they are excellent firearms - in the hands of those who are trained, competent in their use, and drill with them regularly.
**************************************************
One final point - The idea that the Glock safety provides some kind of "speed advantage" in a face-to-face confrontation is ludicrous. In practice, the act of disengaging a "conventional" safety is executed on the draw as the threat is verified and the sights are indexed on the target. You train for that sequence to become an automatic response.
The very first illusion that Weapons Retention Training instructors attempt to dispose of is the idea that you'll be "fast enough on the draw" to neutralize a near-by threat.
They illustrate that point by taking a position 15 to 20 feet from you with a rubber knife. Even knowing what to expect, the "knife" is at your throat before you clear the holster, and that's from an "open carry" posture. Practice rarely improves the results.
Once they have your eyes opened, they teach you proven techniques to evade the threat and defend yourself, while attempting to retain control of your weapon.
But first and foremost - they teach you that the "Hollywood moves" and thinking will get you dead . . .
The added heft of the heavy barrel also makes it an excellent "semi-auto familiarisation" piece for beginning shooters, teaching all the pertinant operation and safety routines without being the least bit intimidating before they move up to heavier calibers. It has always been the first firearm I use to introduce a new shooter to our sport. You can find them new for around $225, and used for under $175. IMO - used is the better deal, as they may be dirty, or have finish flaws, but these puppies never wear out.
I currently have a PT-101 Taurus and a Model 96 Beretta (both are .40 S&W). I agree with Tominator: Consider a Taurus (the basic design was licensed from Beretta). There are minor differences in cosmetics and safety location / function. Both firearms have visual and tactile "loaded chamber" indicators (Moonbeam - take note!
). The PT-101 was $350 (used - like new).I further emphatically state that Glock pistols are NOT for inexperienced shooters! Sorry if I'm goring anybody's ox here, but the trigger-safety design greatly increases the chances of an "Accidental Discharge" when holstering the firearm - That's a fact, and there's AD incident reports to back it up. Obviously, that's an "operator error" issue; but you'd better accept two significant points:
First, an "AD incident" is a Very Bad Thing (tm) to have in your personnel file, so if there's any way to avoid official notice, it will be persued (and that means the occurance is even more frequent than any stats may indicate);
And second, if the people who trained with, and regularly use these firearms are not immune to the complacency that actually causes an AD, then it's obviously not a good choice for entry-level shooters or someone that makes it to the range for an afternoon every month or two.
I am not trashing the Glock design - they are excellent firearms - in the hands of those who are trained, competent in their use, and drill with them regularly.
**************************************************
One final point - The idea that the Glock safety provides some kind of "speed advantage" in a face-to-face confrontation is ludicrous. In practice, the act of disengaging a "conventional" safety is executed on the draw as the threat is verified and the sights are indexed on the target. You train for that sequence to become an automatic response.
The very first illusion that Weapons Retention Training instructors attempt to dispose of is the idea that you'll be "fast enough on the draw" to neutralize a near-by threat.
They illustrate that point by taking a position 15 to 20 feet from you with a rubber knife. Even knowing what to expect, the "knife" is at your throat before you clear the holster, and that's from an "open carry" posture. Practice rarely improves the results.
Once they have your eyes opened, they teach you proven techniques to evade the threat and defend yourself, while attempting to retain control of your weapon.
But first and foremost - they teach you that the "Hollywood moves" and thinking will get you dead . . .
If the primary use will be range applications, look for pistols that give you choice of single or double action. Single action will help dramatically for accuracy. The Beretta's are heavy if you opt for the full frame units; perhaps consider the Bobcat or Cougar Berettas.
H&K's are lighter with a full compliment of safety features along with ambidext. clip release.
as for either of these pistols having problems with cast rounds, that is unknown to me. I reload ammo for many people and have only ran into problems twice (Hi-Points, and a Colt that needed the feed ramp touched up a bit).
Some salespeople will say that you can also get single/double action from hammerless automatics but you still have a very long trigger pull which has a tendancy to drag your sights off to the side. If you really value accuracy, look for a pistol with single/double action and an exposed hammer.
Overall though, if you want a highly accurate range plinker, go with a 22 and your wife will really enjoy it.
good luck and let us know what the final decision is
H&K's are lighter with a full compliment of safety features along with ambidext. clip release.
as for either of these pistols having problems with cast rounds, that is unknown to me. I reload ammo for many people and have only ran into problems twice (Hi-Points, and a Colt that needed the feed ramp touched up a bit).
Some salespeople will say that you can also get single/double action from hammerless automatics but you still have a very long trigger pull which has a tendancy to drag your sights off to the side. If you really value accuracy, look for a pistol with single/double action and an exposed hammer.
Overall though, if you want a highly accurate range plinker, go with a 22 and your wife will really enjoy it.
good luck and let us know what the final decision is
Go with the H&K. It's good enough for use by the Army SOCOM. Granted, their model is larger frame and silencer capable, but if it's good enough a weapon for them, it's good enough for me.
Anyone that looks down the barrel of a gun to see if it is loaded is an IDIOT! To suggest that someone pull the trigger and joke about ending his life just solidifies my statement as true.
There is no humor in your post.
There is no humor in your post.
Hay Torm, you seem to have a problem being wrong. I know exactly what the intent of my post was, what the words mean, because I wrote it. There's nothing in there about pulling any trigger nor is there a joking about his suicide. Let me do it one more time for ya. The colt has the safety features Bober seemed to want, but the one disadvantage of an automatic, in my opinion, is that you can't tell if there is a round in the chamber. Therefore after removing the clip in preparation for storing, I check to make sure there's no round in the chamber. Now that I know it's empty, I tripple check the barrel to insure there's nothing inside encluding any foreign matter. At that point, just like walking across the Golden Gate and looking over the edge and seeing it's a long way down, I get a slight taste of what a person who is going to end it might feel. Enjoy yourself calling me an idiot. I make tripple damn sure my gun is empty because my life wouldn't be worth sh!t to me if somebody else got killed with it. In other words what you think is a big fat zero to me by comparison. So what I was saying was that the one drawback to owning this gun, for me, is that last personal necessity to absolutely see it's safe, and what it brings to mind, a stress we would share in common (joke joke)were he to exercize the same kind of caution. You and AndrewR, so far, are the only people I've run into here who seem to be able to know the meaning of what I say better than I do. Puleese, anybody can misunderstand, but have the graciousness to trust me when I affirm that what you thought I said was not what I had meant.
- Oct 9, 1999
- 37,562
- 9
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Moonbeam
The proper way to check the barrel is to put a rod through it. If the slide were open and you saw the rod through the slide after putting it in the front of the barrel, then it's empty. I'd never recommend to anyone to look down the barrel, but that's just me.
The proper way to check the barrel is to put a rod through it. If the slide were open and you saw the rod through the slide after putting it in the front of the barrel, then it's empty. I'd never recommend to anyone to look down the barrel, but that's just me.
Moonbeam:
Many semi-auto pistols have "loaded chamber" indicators, such as the Taurus and Beretta models I mentioned. On these particular firearms (and others), the extractor projects above the surface of the slide when a cartridge is retained by the claw, thus providing a obvious visual reference under most conditions. In low/no ambient light conditions, the raised extractor can be felt by brushing a finger over the slide just behind the ejection port.
To check for (or verify) a loaded chamber with many other designs, you retract the slide about 3/8" and look in the ejection port; under low/no light, you grip the slide and frame with the off-hand (to hold the slide out-of-battery), while inserting the little finger into the ejection port to feel for a chambered cartridge. This method allows for the fact that you may actually want a round chambered, in which case you simply ease the slide back into battery. Removal of the magazine is not necessary.
When clearing the firearm for storage, you eject the magazine and then cycle the slide and lock it in the open position. At that point, you examine the chamber to ensure it is clear, and then look into and through the magazine well to ensure that it too is clear. If you have reason to suspect there may be "foreign matter" in the bore (which, incidentally, speaks volumes about carry practices), you use a cleaning rod to run a lightly oiled patch down the barrel; or continue disassembly for further cleaning and/or repair. At no time is it necessary, or considered "safe practice" to look down the bore of a firearm from the muzzle without rendering the firearm inoperable.
Note: "Slide locked open" IS NOT "inoperable".
Many semi-auto pistols have "loaded chamber" indicators, such as the Taurus and Beretta models I mentioned. On these particular firearms (and others), the extractor projects above the surface of the slide when a cartridge is retained by the claw, thus providing a obvious visual reference under most conditions. In low/no ambient light conditions, the raised extractor can be felt by brushing a finger over the slide just behind the ejection port.
To check for (or verify) a loaded chamber with many other designs, you retract the slide about 3/8" and look in the ejection port; under low/no light, you grip the slide and frame with the off-hand (to hold the slide out-of-battery), while inserting the little finger into the ejection port to feel for a chambered cartridge. This method allows for the fact that you may actually want a round chambered, in which case you simply ease the slide back into battery. Removal of the magazine is not necessary.
When clearing the firearm for storage, you eject the magazine and then cycle the slide and lock it in the open position. At that point, you examine the chamber to ensure it is clear, and then look into and through the magazine well to ensure that it too is clear. If you have reason to suspect there may be "foreign matter" in the bore (which, incidentally, speaks volumes about carry practices), you use a cleaning rod to run a lightly oiled patch down the barrel; or continue disassembly for further cleaning and/or repair. At no time is it necessary, or considered "safe practice" to look down the bore of a firearm from the muzzle without rendering the firearm inoperable.
Note: "Slide locked open" IS NOT "inoperable".
I have no reason to suspect foreign matter. I don't recommend anything. I gotta dig out the rod. I know it's empty. Seeing twice is believing and a form of pease of mind (for me). It's a price I pay, nothing, for a mistake I couldn't live with. Don't care what's considered safe or necessary. "More people are killed with empty guns...." Only me with mine. It's a liberal thing. Self sacrifice for the sake of others. Idiotic, I know. Appreciate your knowledge and concern though.
Here's a CZ-85 for sale, for $350 ($200 cheaper than what you are planning to spend), apparently its the latest version of the CZ-75, & the Czechs have about the best reputation there is for firearms.
As well as firing 9x19 Para', it seems they are also compatible with the higher penatrating 9x21mm rounds too. They also come with an optionable ,22 LR training 'cadet' kit, just like the Glock does.
As well as firing 9x19 Para', it seems they are also compatible with the higher penatrating 9x21mm rounds too. They also come with an optionable ,22 LR training 'cadet' kit, just like the Glock does.
I have an EAA Witness Compact in .45 ACP for a carry piece - they (the Witness series) are based on the CZ-75 design: reliable, durable, and affordable. IMO, a great choice with reasonable range accuracy.
Moonbeam:
Aside from a sense of responsability I have to provide accurate information to the many individuals that may follow these topics (lurking, rather than posting), I can't claim an entirely altruistic motive in my response to your post:
With the current flood of rhetoric in support of more oppresive gun-control measures, every individual that chooses to conduct themselves as a potential statistic poses a direct threat to my rights due to their negligence.
The unfortunate aspect of most firearms accidents is that someone executed "Step 3" before they executed "Step 1"; thereby injuring or executing themselves, or worse - an innocent bystander.
Moonbeam:
Aside from a sense of responsability I have to provide accurate information to the many individuals that may follow these topics (lurking, rather than posting), I can't claim an entirely altruistic motive in my response to your post:
With the current flood of rhetoric in support of more oppresive gun-control measures, every individual that chooses to conduct themselves as a potential statistic poses a direct threat to my rights due to their negligence.
The unfortunate aspect of most firearms accidents is that someone executed "Step 3" before they executed "Step 1"; thereby injuring or executing themselves, or worse - an innocent bystander.
- Oct 9, 1999
- 37,562
- 9
- 81
Well, I ended up with none of my original choices. The local shop had a Sig P226 .40 used by in near perfect condition for $370, it even had a better grip. Plus they have a 30 day satisfaction guarantee, so I figured I couldn't go wrong there.
Thanks for everybody's suggestions.
Thanks for everybody's suggestions.
Hey, do you know where I can find out about local gun laws?
I want to get a handgun for target practice, shooting range, etc... But I live in NJ and I hear its one of the hardest places to get a license...
I just need find out whether or not a license is needed to just own a gun; or whether you only need it to carry a gun. Basically I need to know what I need to purchase a gun.
I want to get a handgun for target practice, shooting range, etc... But I live in NJ and I hear its one of the hardest places to get a license...
I just need find out whether or not a license is needed to just own a gun; or whether you only need it to carry a gun. Basically I need to know what I need to purchase a gun.
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