Updated FactCheck.org info on Swiftboat liars

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
7,842
2
81
Clarification: Kerry's Silver Star citations

08.14.2004




In an Aug. 9 update we stated that Kerry's citation for the Silver Star made no mention of killing a Viet Cong. In fact, there are three citations, and one of the three does indeed mention the killing.This merely strengthens our conclusion that George Elliott's second affidavit is misleading. All three citations make clear that Kerry was not awarded the Silver Star for the reasons Elliott implied. We have amended our article on the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth ad to reflect this.

Elliott, who was Kerry's commanding officer at the time, now says he believes Kerry shot a Viet Cong in the back, adding: "Had I known the facts, I would not have recommended Kerry for the Silver Star for simply pursuing and dispatching a single, wounded, fleeing Viet Cong." But the one citation that mentions the killing states that the Viet Cong "fled" and that Kerry "pursued," showing Elliott knew the score when he recommended Kerry for the award 35 years ago. Elliott's affidavit also fails to note that the Viet Cong's rocket launcher was loaded, posing a lethal threat to Kerry and his men.

Furthermore, all three versions of the citation make clear that the basis for the award was not "simply" for the killing alone, but for repeatedly attacking enemy ambushers.



Our article now reads as follows:



Elliott also says in that second affidavit, "Had I known the facts, I would not have recommended Kerry for the Silver Star for simply pursuing and dispatching a single, wounded, fleeing Viet Cong." That statement is misleading, however. It mischaracterizes the actual basis on which Kerry received his decoration.

The official citations show Kerry was not awarded the Silver Star "for simply pursuing and dispatching" the Viet Cong. In fact, the killing is not even mentioned in two of the three versions of the official citation (see "supporting documents" at right.) The citations - based on what Elliott wrote up at the time - dwell mostly on Kerry's decision to attack rather than flee from two ambushes, including one in which he led a landing party.

The longest of the citations, signed by Vice Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, commander of U.S. naval forces in Vietnam, describes Kerry as killing a fleeing Viet Cong with a loaded rocket launcher. It says that as Kerry beached his boat to attack his second set of ambushers, "an enemy soldier sprang up from his position not ten feet from Patrol Craft Fast 94 and fled. Without hesitation, Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY leaped ashore, pursued the man behind a hooch, and killed him, capturing a B-40 rocket launcher with a round in the chamber."

Two other citations omit any mention of the killing. One was signed by Admiral John J. Hyland, commander in chief of the Pacific Fleet, and the other was signed by Secretary of the Navy John Chafee. Both those citations say Kerry attacked his first set of ambushers and that "this daring and courageous tactic surprised the enemy and succeeded in routing a score of enemy soldiers." Later, 800 yards away, Kerry's boat encountered a second ambush and a B-40 rocket exploded "close aboard" Kerry's boat. "With utter disregard for his own safety, and the enemy rockets, he again ordered a charge on the enemy, beached his boat only ten feet away from the VC rocket position, and personally led a landing party ashore in pursuit of the enemy." In these citations there is no mention of enemy casualties at all. Kerry was cited for "extraordinary daring and personal courage . . . in attacking a numerically superior force in the face of intense fire."
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
1
0
This is just a thought (and maybe I watch too much TV), but these guys aren't on trial so what's to prevent a few of them from taking lie detector tests?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,744
6,761
126
Doesn't matter. He protested the war when he got home. Lots of people don't like thinking they fought in an evil useless war. When you bruise people's egos you have to pay.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
Thanks for the post. Further proff that this smear campaign is based on lies and greed.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Doesn't matter. He protested the war when he got home. Lots of people don't like thinking they fought in an evil useless war. When you bruise people's egos you have to pay.

Dear Admiral Mooster,
Hehehehehe... when one finds themselves all gobbled up by the tiger the natural thinking is that at least they won't have to look for food.. :)
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Thanks for the post. Further proff that this smear campaign is based on lies and greed.

but...but...but...the proceeds are going to charity!
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Thanks for the post. Further proff that this smear campaign is based on lies and greed.

but...but...but...the proceeds are going to charity!

That is correct, proceeds are going to the navy.
 

Zephyr106

Banned
Jul 2, 2003
1,309
0
0
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Thanks for the post. Further proff that this smear campaign is based on lies and greed.

but...but...but...the proceeds are going to charity!

That is correct, proceeds are going to the navy.

The Navy is a charity now? Kinda like the Salvation Army?

Zephyr
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,744
6,761
126
Don't forget that if we start thinking that Nam was wrong we might question Iraq. That would be horrible. Truth isn't important. What is important is winning, who cares what at.
 

Shad0hawK

Banned
May 26, 2003
1,456
0
0
Originally posted by: Todd33
Clarification: Kerry's Silver Star citations

08.14.2004




In an Aug. 9 update we stated that Kerry's citation for the Silver Star made no mention of killing a Viet Cong. In fact, there are three citations, and one of the three does indeed mention the killing.This merely strengthens our conclusion that George Elliott's second affidavit is misleading. All three citations make clear that Kerry was not awarded the Silver Star for the reasons Elliott implied. We have amended our article on the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth ad to reflect this.

Elliott, who was Kerry's commanding officer at the time, now says he believes Kerry shot a Viet Cong in the back, adding: "Had I known the facts, I would not have recommended Kerry for the Silver Star for simply pursuing and dispatching a single, wounded, fleeing Viet Cong." But the one citation that mentions the killing states that the Viet Cong "fled" and that Kerry "pursued," showing Elliott knew the score when he recommended Kerry for the award 35 years ago. Elliott's affidavit also fails to note that the Viet Cong's rocket launcher was loaded, posing a lethal threat to Kerry and his men.

Furthermore, all three versions of the citation make clear that the basis for the award was not "simply" for the killing alone, but for repeatedly attacking enemy ambushers.



Our article now reads as follows:



Elliott also says in that second affidavit, "Had I known the facts, I would not have recommended Kerry for the Silver Star for simply pursuing and dispatching a single, wounded, fleeing Viet Cong." That statement is misleading, however. It mischaracterizes the actual basis on which Kerry received his decoration.

The official citations show Kerry was not awarded the Silver Star "for simply pursuing and dispatching" the Viet Cong. In fact, the killing is not even mentioned in two of the three versions of the official citation (see "supporting documents" at right.) The citations - based on what Elliott wrote up at the time - dwell mostly on Kerry's decision to attack rather than flee from two ambushes, including one in which he led a landing party.

The longest of the citations, signed by Vice Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, commander of U.S. naval forces in Vietnam, describes Kerry as killing a fleeing Viet Cong with a loaded rocket launcher. It says that as Kerry beached his boat to attack his second set of ambushers, "an enemy soldier sprang up from his position not ten feet from Patrol Craft Fast 94 and fled. Without hesitation, Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY leaped ashore, pursued the man behind a hooch, and killed him, capturing a B-40 rocket launcher with a round in the chamber."

Two other citations omit any mention of the killing. One was signed by Admiral John J. Hyland, commander in chief of the Pacific Fleet, and the other was signed by Secretary of the Navy John Chafee. Both those citations say Kerry attacked his first set of ambushers and that "this daring and courageous tactic surprised the enemy and succeeded in routing a score of enemy soldiers." Later, 800 yards away, Kerry's boat encountered a second ambush and a B-40 rocket exploded "close aboard" Kerry's boat. "With utter disregard for his own safety, and the enemy rockets, he again ordered a charge on the enemy, beached his boat only ten feet away from the VC rocket position, and personally led a landing party ashore in pursuit of the enemy." In these citations there is no mention of enemy casualties at all. Kerry was cited for "extraordinary daring and personal courage . . . in attacking a numerically superior force in the face of intense fire."

so what exactly does this refute? the citations were awarded on kerry's reports and reccomendation by his CO(who also thought he knew what he did by mostly by kerry's reports)...it is circular reasoning

you do not really think CINCPAC and the sec of the navy saw it first hand do you? ROFL!!!
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
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EDIT: Consolidating and adding info:

Larry Thurlow, one of the lying Swiftboat Veterans:
http://www.nationalreview.com/script/printpage.asp?ref=/york/york200407301059.asp
Thurlow says that Kerry's version of the events of March 13, 1969, is simply wrong. "His story is a total fabrication," Thurlow says. One of the Swift Boats did hit a mine that day, Thurlow says, but much of the rest of Kerry's story is inaccurate. "This thing about being under intense enemy fire is a falsehood...There was no fire off either bank [of the river]. This thing about getting Jim out of the river under a hail of bullets with these serious injuries is totally fabricated."


The lie exposed:
http://www.thehistorynet.com/ah/blkerryinvietnam/index3.html

Larry Thurlow received a bronze star for a fire fight he now says did not occur!



AND

George Elliott lying:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5694561/
HURLEY: This is from George Elliott, one of John Kerry?s commanders in Vietnam. This is the recommendation for the award of the Bronze Star. And he talks about a little bit in this.

Then he says: ?Shortly after starting their exit from this river, a mine detonated under one of the boats, PCF-3, lifting it two feet above the water and wounded everyone on board. Almost simultaneously, another mine detonated, close aboard PCF-94, knocking First Lieutenant Rassmann into the water and wounding Lieutenant J.G. Kerry in the right arm.? It goes on that PCF-4 provided cover fire, that they received sniper fire from the riverbanks. ?Lieutenant J.G. Kerry, from his exposed position on the bow of the boat, managed to pull Lieutenant Rassmann aboard despite the painful wound in his right arm.

?Meanwhile, PCF-94 gunners provided accurate suppressing fire.? It concludes by saying: ?Lieutenant J.G. Kerry proved himself to be calm, professional and highly courageous in the face of enemy fire.? That is signed by George Elliott, one of these same guys now who is saying, oh, but I remember it differently and I want to change my mind.

http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=231
What Elliott said in the ad is that Kerry "has not been honest about what happened in Viet Nam." In his original affidavit Elliott said Kerry had not been "forthright" in Vietnam. The only example he offered of Kerry not being "honest" or "forthright" was this: "For example, in connection with his Silver Star, I was never informed that he had simply shot a wounded, fleeing Viet Cong in the back.

In the Globe story, Elliott is quoted as saying it was a "terrible mistake" to sign that statement:

George Elliott (Globe account): It was a terrible mistake probably for me to sign the affidavit with those words. I'm the one in trouble here. . . . I knew it was wrong . . . In a hurry I signed it and faxed it back. That was a mistake.

http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_4998.shtml
Another prominent figure in the anti-Kerry book as well as the ad denouncing Kerry, retired Lt. Commander George Elliott, recanted his statement last week in interviews with at least two news sources and then recounted his recant. Elliott also supported Kerry in his 1996 campaign and told a Boston audience that he felt the Senator "deserved the medals he won in Vietnam."

O?Neill further destroyed his credibility by appearing on CNN after assuring the network he had not spoke out publicly about Kerry this year. CNN later had to retract their claim of an ?exclusive? interview after they learned O?Neill appeared on C-Span to discuss Kerry in March.

Elliott Praises Kerry in 1969 Report
Elliott had a much different opinion of Kerry at the time than in the ad. In a fitness report on Kerry, dated Dec. 18, 1969, he stated that "in a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action LTJG Kerry was unsurpassed...LTJG Kerry emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group."

Elliott also said he voted for Gore. I find that very hard to believe considering he's donated to the GOP. Elliott is a pathological liar. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.


AND

Hibbard has not revealed that he was Kerry's CO for only two weeks and never wrote a performance review for Kerry.


AND

Hoffman has been called a Kurtz-like psychopath.
Capt. Roy Hoffmann: "I told them you not only have authority," Hoffmann now says, "I damned well expect action. If there were men there and they didn?t kill them or capture them, you?d hear from me."

Also, Hoffman is a liar:
http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_4998.shtml
?They seek retribution by fabricating stories to destroy Kerry,? Brinkley says. ?Hoffman, in particular lacks credibility.?

On May 6, Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reporter Steve Schultze, interviewed Hoffman and wrote ?Hoffmann acknowledged he had no first-hand knowledge to discredit Kerry's claims to valor and said that although Kerry was under his command, he really didn't know Kerry much personally.?

On August 5, however, Hoffman told Sean Hannity on his ABC radio show that "I knew him (Kerry) well, because I operated very closely with him and, uh, many of the operations, uh, most of the operations were-were conducted with multiple boats."


AND

Merrie Spaeth is the Communications Director for the Swiftboat Veterans group and is a staunch GOP supporter.


AND

Their website is funded by a Missouri Republican with close ties to John Ashcroft.


AND

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/5/4/132751.shtml
?It is our collective judgment that, upon your return from Vietnam, you grossly and knowingly distorted the conduct of the American soldiers, Marines, sailors and airmen of that war (including a betrayal of many of us, without regard for the danger your actions caused us.) Further, we believe that you have withheld and/or distorted material facts as to your own conduct in this war.?

But it is with regard to the latter sentence of the charge that O?Neill and others get vague.

When asked by NewsMax if they had in mind any potential smoking gun of distortion that might be revealed by an unfettered examination of Kerry?s military records, there was no answer forthcoming.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
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What's amazing is that, even in the face of these facts - from these guys' own words, there are still people that think they are telling the truth about Kerry.

That's what scares me. People that cannot see the truth when it's blazing in front of their eyes.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
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Originally posted by: conjur
What's amazing is that, even in the face of these facts - from these guys' own words, there are still people that think they are telling the truth about Kerry.

That's what scares me. People that cannot see the truth when it's blazing in front of their eyes.
The only people that believe them are those who want to.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
Originally posted by: conjur
What's amazing is that, even in the face of these facts - from these guys' own words, there are still people that think they are telling the truth about Kerry.

That's what scares me. People that cannot see the truth when it's blazing in front of their eyes.

What's amazing to me is right now, somewhere in America, someone is writing an OP-ED piece that Rip will soon be copying and pasting to try and refute the lies these liars keep telling.
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
1
0
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: conjur
What's amazing is that, even in the face of these facts - from these guys' own words, there are still people that think they are telling the truth about Kerry.

That's what scares me. People that cannot see the truth when it's blazing in front of their eyes.

What's amazing to me is right now, somewhere in America, someone is writing an OP-ED piece that Rip will soon be copying and pasting to try and refute the lies these liars keep telling.

:laugh:
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
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Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: conjur
What's amazing is that, even in the face of these facts - from these guys' own words, there are still people that think they are telling the truth about Kerry.

That's what scares me. People that cannot see the truth when it's blazing in front of their eyes.

What's amazing to me is right now, somewhere in America, someone is writing an OP-ED piece that Rip will soon be copying and pasting to try and refute the lies these liars keep telling.

BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!

LMFAO!!
 

DoubleL

Golden Member
Apr 3, 2001
1,202
0
0
Originally posted by: [by]umbrella39
Thanks for the post. Further proff that this Kerry campaign is based on lies and greed
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would have to agree with umbrella39 on this one
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
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Umbrella39:

We will believe the big lie if repeated often enough. If we see it in print, or if it is on The Fox Cartoon Network, then IT IS TRUE. :)

You know Rove is probably having daily phone consults with the lead guy on this dumb story. You know Rove will work this to death. And you know that at least one-third of the American public will believe that John Kerry shot an innocent child in the back as he ran in fear. Why they didn't allege he raped a village full of virgins escapes me, except for the obvious probability that no such village still exists anywhere in the world. :)

-Robert
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: DoubleL
Originally posted by: [by]umbrella39
Thanks for the post. Further proff that this Kerry campaign is based on lies and greed
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would have to agree with umbrella39 on this one

:roll:

Good job changing umbrella39's words.
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
1
0
Originally posted by: DoubleL
Originally posted by: [by]umbrella39
Thanks for the post. Further proff that this Kerry campaign is based on lies and greed
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would have to agree with umbrella39 on this one


HAHAHAHA
hahahaha
um
hehehehe
um
heh
um
good one?
 

wiin

Senior member
Oct 28, 1999
937
0
76
Conjur said:
What's amazing is that, even in the face of these facts - from these guys' own words, there are still people that think they are telling the truth about Kerry.




What's amazing is that there are still people that think kerry is telling the truth even when kerry is lying about Kerry:

"I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting in a gunboat in Cambodia," said Kerry on the Senate floor. "I remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States tell the American people I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia. I have the memory which is seared ? seared ? in me. ? "
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
9,634
0
0
If this organization wants to give the illusion that they are unbiased, perhaps they shouldn't hire ex-Ted Kennedy staffers.

Seth Goldman
Researcher, Annenberg Political Fact Check

Seth Goldman earned his B.A. in political communication at George Washington University. He joined the Annenberg Public Policy Center in June, 2004 with previous experience as journalist, press relations assistant, and media researcher. He has worked at the Committee for a Democratic Majority and at Sen. Edward M. Kennedy's campaign committee. At GWU he founded and edited Sticks & Stones, an independent, student-run progressive newsmagazine.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
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Originally posted by: wiin
Conjur said:
What's amazing is that, even in the face of these facts - from these guys' own words, there are still people that think they are telling the truth about Kerry.
What's amazing is that there are still people that think kerry is telling the truth even when kerry is lying about Kerry:

"I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting in a gunboat in Cambodia," said Kerry on the Senate floor. "I remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States tell the American people I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia. I have the memory which is seared ? seared ? in me. ? "
And that's a lie how?

Because you say so? :confused:
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: wiin
Conjur said:
What's amazing is that, even in the face of these facts - from these guys' own words, there are still people that think they are telling the truth about Kerry.
What's amazing is that there are still people that think kerry is telling the truth even when kerry is lying about Kerry:

"I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting in a gunboat in Cambodia," said Kerry on the Senate floor. "I remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States tell the American people I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia. I have the memory which is seared ? seared ? in me. ? "
And that's a lie how?

Because you say so? :confused:

because the swift boats cant make it to cambodia. Because his story has changed numerous times. Because his journal says he was elsewhere.