*UPDATE* Obama's new vision for NASA - "help Muslim nations feel good" (really)

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
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http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/07/05/nasa-chief-frontier-better-relations-muslims/

"When I became the NASA administrator -- or before I became the NASA administrator -- he [Obama]charged me with three things. One was he wanted me to help re-inspire children to want to get into science and math, he wanted me to expand our international relationships, and third, and perhaps foremost, he wanted me to find a way to reach out to the Muslim world and engage much more with dominantly Muslim nations to help them feel good about their historic contribution to science ... and math and engineering," Bolden said in the interview.

It goes on:

and there is much to be gained by drawing in the contributions that are possible from the Muslim (nations)

Really, I know nations that are now Muslim had accomplishments in the past but in recent memory they haven't done much of anything at all in any scientific fields be it medicine, engineering, manufacturing, etc. When you think of great inventions in the last century Saudi Arabia and Iran are hardly on your short list.

*UPDATE 7/12/2010*

Whitehouse corrects statements by NASA's head:http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/07/12/white-house-muslim-outreach-task-nasa/

The rest of you thread-haters stfu, you just got owned by the White House (and me).
 
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waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
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it don't matter if its true. the fact you linked FOX you are going to get flamed.

and what the Muslim nations did in the past *(rather impressive actually) does not matter today.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
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I think he's just saying that Obama would like NASA to try to work scientifically with Muslim nations the same way it works with other nations, to encourage more Muslim contributions to math and science as in the past.

Given that countries that work closely together on tough scientific problems are probably more likely to behave as friends, this doesn't really sound like such a crazy idea to me.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
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I think he's just saying that Obama would like NASA to try to work scientifically with Muslim nations the same way it works with other nations, to encourage more Muslim contributions to math and science as in the past.

Given that countries that work closely together on tough scientific problems are probably more likely to behave as friends, this doesn't really sound like such a crazy idea to me.

i agree and do think its a good idea.if we can get the whole world working together on some of the huge problems it will help. not just politician but actually coming up with solutions.
 

Freshgeardude

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2006
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yes, that's what we need. crazy Muslims in space blowing up a multi-billion dollar space station.
 

Sclamoz

Guest
Sep 9, 2009
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Probably trying to encourage muslim nations to embrace ideas like science, education and secularism over crazy religious fundamentalism.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
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Probably trying to encourage muslim nations to embrace ideas like science, education and secularism over crazy religious fundamentalism.

Which only sounds objectionable if your goal isn't to much to combat Muslim extremism so much as it is to combat Islam in general (as is obviously the case with folks like Freshgeardude).
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
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Again, Obama's priorities are not with the United states but with foreign countries. He should maybe try to focus on the United States and our 10% unemployment before he worries about other nations.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
Again, Obama's priorities are not with the United states but with foreign countries. He should maybe try to focus on the United States and our 10% unemployment before he worries about other nations.

I would think that getting them to contribute to the worlds space program would be a positive thing for the united states and the world in general.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
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us vs them will always win and make the whole of the world a better place etc.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
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I would think that getting them to contribute to the worlds space program would be a positive thing for the united states and the world in general.
A positive thing would be hoarding US technology and preventing other countries from acquiring our technology. A not so positive thing would be to give away our precious space technology to other foreign entities.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
36,351
10,658
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Presentation is everything.

No one would object if the headline read: "Obama to NASA: 'Reach out to the international community and expand their contribution'".
 

Zedtom

Platinum Member
Nov 23, 2001
2,146
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It's difficult to get people to work together on projects that have nothing to do with religion or geography. The bureaucracy within NASA prevents innovations to be shared without going through proper channels and chains of command.
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
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Lumping all Muslims together is just as ignorant as lumping all Christianity together and the Liberals today are just as guilty if not more so than Conservatives in this, by giving praise to Wahhabi brainwashed muslim nations today for past accomplishments that could never have been if the present ideology was the norm back then.

Science, education and secularism is failing due to the oil funded Wahhabi tentacles spread throughout the muslim world.

A better understanding of this can be found in the interview with Sufi Muslim Shaykh Muhammad Hisham Kabbani.

No cliff notes here, if something this important is too long for your attention span than maybe you qualify for a job as a politician that doesn't have time to read the bills they vote for.

http://endwahhabism.blogspot.com/2006/03/sufi-muslim-takes-on-wahhabism.html


Sufi Muslim takes on Wahhabism

To the controversial US-based Islamic scholar, Wahhabism is like an octopus whose tentacles are reaching everywhere

By Mafoot Simon
Senior Writer
The Straits Times, Singapore

ALMOST from the moment he sits down, Shaykh Muhammad Hisham Kabbani goes on a sustained frontal attack on Wahhabism, the strain of Islamic thought that is currently and widely believed to be the ideological well-spring of Islamic extremism.

If Wahhabism had been an object standing right before him, it would have been reduced to pulp by the end of the hour-long interview.

But Shaykh Kabbani will tell you that it is not because he hates the Wahhabis. The chairman of the Islamic Supreme Council of America, a religious organisation based in Washington DC whose mission, among others, is to 'educate government officials on the religion, culture and history of the Muslim world', says he is worried because Wahhabism is like an an octopus.

'Its tentacles are reaching everywhere'

Concerted efforts must now be made to stop them, he says. 'You have to hit the head; the head is the teachings, the teachings of radical Wahhabism,' says the 59-year-old.

Back in 1990, arriving for his first Friday prayers in an American mosque in Jersey City, he was shocked to hear Wahhabism being preached. 'What I heard there, I had never heard in my native Lebanon. I asked myself: Is Wahhabism active in America? So I started my research.
Whichever mosque I went to, it was Wahhabi, Wahhabi, Wahhabi, Wahhabi.'

The pervasive presence of Wahhabi teachings in American mosques appalled him.

With a long white beard that reaches the chest, a flowing robe and white headgear, Shaykh Kabbani can easily be mistaken for one of those Islamic scholars more at ease with Quranic verses than the chemical properties of oil or the anatomy of the human body.

But the Lebanon-born scholar graduated with a bachelor's degree in chemistry from the American University of Beirut before continuing his medical studies in Belgium. Today, he also has a degree in Islamic law.

Shaykh Kabbani is one of the organisers of the four-day International Conference of Islamic Scholars to be held in Jakarta from Dec 21 which features some world-renowned Muslim scholars.

Among them are Dr Husain Haqqani of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, Dr Khaled M. Abou El Fadl of the University of California at Los Angeles School of Law, Dr Abdul Ghani Le Joyeux of the Muslim World League of France, and Dr Rahma Bourqia, president of the Universite Hassan II Mohammedia-Casablanca in Morocco.

The conference is meant to provide a forum for Islamic leaders to discuss strategies, programmes and plans to 'elucidate a modern vision for civil society institutions in Muslim societies everywhere'. One highlight is the publication of 'A Declaration of Universal Human
Rights In Islam'.

Shaykh Kabbani moved to the United States in 1990 as an emissary of his 'guru', Shaykh Muhammad Nazim al-Haqqani, the grand shaykh ('shaykh' is a Sufi mystical leader) of the Naqshbandi Order, a modern Sufi group, to make inroads into the US. Since then, he has opened scores of Sufi centres in the US and Canada.

Sufism is generally believed to have grown out of early Islamic asceticism that began as a counterweight to the worldliness of the expanding Muslim community of the early Umayyad period (AD 661-749). There are different variants of Sufism but core beliefs include spirituality, acts of piety and a strong emphasis on prayer and meditation.

Hostility between Sufis and Wahhabis dates back to the very founding of Wahhabism itself in the 18th century when it emerged as the most famous and militant anti-Sufi movement in the Arabian peninsula. Wahhabis considered Sufism a degenerate form of Islam and urged a return to the 'fundamentals' of Islam, as opposed to the 'traditions' that had accrued over the centuries.

Today, Wahhabism is associated with the Saudi government, which funds many Wahhabi missionary activities overseas, including in the US.

Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden is also believed to be a Wahhabi

Shaykh Kabbani's fame in the US pre-dates the Sept 11, 2001 attacks, however. In 1999, during a forum organised by the US State Department, he charged that '80 per cent' of the mosques in the US were run by extremists. Following that claim, more than 100 Islamic centres and groups issued a statement condemning his remarks.

In 2002, on a visit to Malaysia, he raised an alarm when he revealed that a former Malaysian Cabinet minister had allegedly funded a Muslim organisation in the US which has possible links with extremist groups. He has not changed his view.

More recently, he has been a guest at the White House Iftar (breaking of the Muslim fast) hosted by US President George W. Bush, and has met world leaders such as Afghan President Hamid Karzai.

He travels regularly to this region, Britain and elsewhere.

He has written a number of books, the latest being The Approach Of Armageddon - An Islamic Perspective.

It has been described as an 'unprecedented work' and touted as a 'must read' for religious scholars and lay persons interested in broadening their understanding of centuries-old religious traditions pertaining to the Last Days.

His other books include The Naqshbandi Sufi Way, Angels Unveiled, Encyclopaedia Of Islamic Doctrine (seven volumes), and Women Companions Of The Prophet Muhammad (with Dr L. Bakhtiar).

His garb and forceful views on the Wahhabis notwithstanding, the jet-set Sufi is not without a sense of humour.

When told that I had requested the interview to be brought forward by an hour to 9.30am, he quipped: 'I was told you were coming at 7.30am, so I have been ready since 7.30am.'

Introduced to my colleague, photojournalist Aziz Hussin, as 'the great shaykh from the US', he countered: 'No, no. The small shaykh from the US.'

Whether great or small, the shaykh is quite controversial, something that he unabashedly admitted during the interview.

He has his share of critics. In 2001, Professor John Voll of Georgetown University in Washington DC said that Shaykh Kabbani was overstating his case against Wahhabism.

'Wahhabism itself is subject to moderate and extreme strains,' said Prof Voll, adding: 'The Saudis have given millions to Harvard Law School. Does that make it a Wahhabi institution too?'

But questions like this, however, have not stopped, and are not likely going to stop, the shaykh from slamming the Wahhabis.

Giving moderate Muslim speakers a platform

Q. What is the purpose of the International Conference of Islamic Scholars to be held in Jakarta?

A. It is to establish, once and for all, the proper image of Islam and to empower moderate speakers or scholars to speak up.

Q. The conference flier here says that 'the moderates are struggling for access to the public square'. Why?

A. In my humble opinion, moderate scholars have no access to anything. The dominating voice today is the voice of the Wahhabi sect. They dominate everything: publishing, books, money. Everything is in their hands.

If one moderate scholar speaks up, the Wahhabis will bring hundreds of speakers from their side to speak. That is why there is no public square for the moderates. We are trying to establish a structure for these moderates to stand up and it is a challenge. But we are trying.


Q. You say Wahhabism is the primary source of extremism.

A. Of course, Islam is peaceful in its history. Islam does not allow aggression.

But the Wahhabi sect spreads a radical ideology, financed by oil money. Today Wahhabism is everywhere, not just in Saudi Arabia. You go to any mosque, you will find literature from Saudi Arabia about Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab (the founder of Wahhabism). You will find on the shelves only books by scholars from Saudi Arabia. You cannot find books by other scholars in these mosques.

Q. Are Muslims ready to say that the Saudis are behind this extremism?

A. Ask the 19 hijackers (who flew the planes in the suicide attacks on the United States in 2001, several of whom were Saudi-born), do not ask me. That will give you a clear answer.

Q. Is that one reason why moderates are not speaking up? Because they are not willing to say openly who is behind the extremism?

A. That is true in a sense...(But) they are also being threatened. They are afraid. No one will protect them.

Q. Who are these moderates?

A. I give you one example. Mohd Maliki (Muhammad Ibn Alawi Abbas Ibn Al Aziz Al Maliki, a scholar) from Mecca. He was a moderate and tried to stand up against the Wahhabis in Mecca and Medina. Around 1980, he was exiled because he wanted to debate (a fatwa issued by the Saudi religious authorities). After intervention from many Arab Muslims, he was allowed to return, but his movements were curbed. Recently, he died. But to allow his jenazah (funeral) prayers to be done in the Kaabah, they had to declare publicly that he had repented before he died.

Q. What about the moderates in the United States?

A. Most of the mosques in the US are influenced by Saudi teachings. Check the mosques, you'll find Saudi books, Saudi curriculum for the schools. If you speak against Wahhabism, your mosque will not get more funds. The people in the mosques have been brainwashed.


Q. The conference statement also says that 'the struggle for ideological primacy within Islam is a fight that only Muslims themselves can wage'. Is this the position of the conference organiser?

A. Muslims have to come together and discuss these differences and put an end to what is going on, because if the Muslims cannot do that, no one can do it.

Q. Do you see this as a clash of civilisations instead?

A. I do not see a clash of civilisations. Sept 11 caused a clash of civilisation. But I say the clash of civilisation is among Muslims themselves. Muslims are fighting each other; they are killing each other. There are no human rights in Islamic countries. People are thrown in prisons, beaten to death.

Q. One American Muslim writer said that this talk that only Muslims themselves can solve this problem is actually divisive. It is dividing the ummah (community).

A. The Muslim community is already divided. You are telling me there is unity among the Muslims? The Prophet said: 'My ummah will be divided into 73 different groups.' It already exists. It has existed since the time of the Prophet.

Today, there is one hegemony in the Muslim world, the hegemony of the Wahhabi sect that makes all Muslims look bad. Maybe the writer you mention is getting oil money. Many writers get oil money.

Q. I do not mean to be rude, but the same could also be said of those who espouse a line similar to what comes out of Washington. That they are being paid by the CIA.

A. I am not receiving anything from the US government. I practise the Sufi tradition - the purification of the self; to be peaceful at all times and not to create confusion. Obey God, obey the Prophet, obey the authorities. We do not incite confusion. If we do not like something, we say it in a nice, diplomatic way. We debate. Today, there is no room for debate.

Q. How to stop the Wahhabis?

A. They have been around 40 years, so there is no quick fix. You have to plan for the next 40 years. But the first thing to do is stop sending your students to Saudi Arabia to study. Unfortunately, Singapore, Indonesia, Malaysia, America, Arab countries are still doing that.

Send your students to where there are established mainstream Muslim ways that are currently eliminated from Wahhabi books. Bring back the traditions - the (Indian) subcontinental traditions, the South-east Asian traditions.

Teach them Sufism, spirituality. They have to be taught to be peace-loving, to integrate and be part of the bigger community.

Wahhabism tells you, do not be part of a kafir (disbeliever) community. (But) you have to integrate with the system wherever you are; as in Singapore, you have to be part of this unique system that you have. You cannot say I am a Muslim, he is a Chinese. Both of you are subjects, citizens of one system. Your religion is between you and Allah. That is Islam.

I would also suggest humbly that you do not import scholars. They come from the Middle East and Africa and have a Middle Eastern and African mentality. My suggestion is to build in the universities an Islamic studies curriculum approved by modern, moderate scholars. These graduates can later teach others.

Q. Is this not something personal, the antagonism between your Sufism and Wahhabism?

A. This is the message we are sending if you want to change. We do not care much really. We live peacefully, live our own lives. But today, we see things are getting out of hand. Even the government has lost control. So we are giving a suggestion: To solve this problem, you have to go back to cultivating a love for the arts, the sciences, poetry, music - the essence of Sufism.

There is no poetry of love today. Only the poetry of vengeance... against the West, Europe, Muslims, Palestine. They are instilling in small kids the sense of hate; we have to change that hate to love.

If you think this is a problem you can solve through diplomacy, in 70 years, they will conquer you and finish you completely. People think there is one (Osama) bin Laden. Who says there is one bin Laden? Every extremist will become a bin Laden.

Q. The way you put it, they seem like a cancer...

A. They are not a cancer. They are an octopus, reaching everywhere.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
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That's exactly what we need to do for the Muslim world. Get them to realize that they were once leaders of science, not backward theocratic right wing fanatics. Maybe we can do the same for American Christian creationists too.
 

Sclamoz

Guest
Sep 9, 2009
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A positive thing would be hoarding US technology and preventing other countries from acquiring our technology. A not so positive thing would be to give away our precious space technology to other foreign entities.

What does highlighting muslim scientific achievment have to do with giving them our space technology? It's funny the idea of saying something encouraging turns into giving them technology. Never mind the fact that US companies like Haliburton are already doing that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0giXvhEWMo

Lumping all Muslims together is just as ignorant as lumping all Christianity together and the Liberals today are just as guilty if not more so than Conservatives in this, by giving praise to Wahhabi brainwashed muslim nations today for past accomplishments that could never have been if the present ideology was the norm back then.

I think you've missed the point. It's to draw attention to how the muslim world was leading in science, math, philosophy, astronomy, medicine before they gave it up for religious craziness. Yes, they wouldn't have accomplishment any of it if they were all Wahabis that's the idea, to make Wahabism and other extremists seem negative.
 

PeshakJang

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2010
2,276
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Except that historical Muslim contributions to science and math are mostly relating to their conquering of scientifically advanced civilizations and the assimilation of their scholars and archives. No real new advancements were brought by the Muslim conquerors, and intellectual progress was basically halted, except in the communities of forced converts.

That aside, the nature of modern Islam is extremely restrictive of scientific achievement. Unless we are advocating meddling with their religion and cultures now, Islam will be a major roadblock toward any real scientific advancement.

Call it bigotry if you're an idiot... but that's just the predominant truth of the culture.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
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Unfortunately this is one of those times where media slant has taken a well-meaning sentiment and twisted it. To restate the purpose of this statement, I quote an excellent article from GQ magazine:

The Next Giant Leap

In explaining why space is worth exploring, as NASA frequently finds itself doing, there’s a mistaken supposition, because—as with anything of real value—the benefits are largely unknown. It’s a philosophical matter, almost religious in its insolubility. Why do we need to love or live at all?

The answer is in wondering. And NASA is about wonder. Its last administrator, Michael Griffin, attempted to reinstill that wonder when he gave a series of soaring, sermonlike speeches, and asked, “What is the value to the United States of being involved in enterprises which lift up human hearts everywhere when we do them?”

His answer: making the world unite. (Or, in flawless NASA-ese: doing “the kinds of things that make others want to work with us to do them.”) A Star Trek–like ideal, in line with Kennedy’s vision in the early ’60s. But now, just a few decades into the endeavor, all is uncertainty. Obama, a Kennedy-like president who wants NASA to “inspire the world,” took office; Griffin was let go. Nobody outside NASA knows what we’re doing in space.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
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Except that historical Muslim contributions to science and math are mostly relating to their conquering of scientifically advanced civilizations and the assimilation of their scholars and archives. No real new advancements were brought by the Muslim conquerors, and intellectual progress was basically halted, except in the communities of forced converts.

That aside, the nature of modern Islam is extremely restrictive of scientific achievement. Unless we are advocating meddling with their religion and cultures now, Islam will be a major roadblock toward any real scientific advancement.


Call it bigotry if you're an idiot... but that's just the predominant truth of the culture.

That's the whole POINT
 

mpo

Senior member
Jan 8, 2010
458
51
91
Yep, there is no way NASA would ever have any sort of outreach to the Middle East.

Next, you'll tell me that an honest-to-goodness Muslim has already flown on a Shuttle flight.

Sort of like Sultan Salman al-Saud who flew as a Payload Specialist on the Shuttle mission STS-51G in 1985:
http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/Bios/htmlbios/al-saud.html