UPDATE: 5850 vs 5870 vs 4870 CF

[mmnno]

Originally posted by: ChorniyVolk

Originally posted by: bryanW1995

Originally posted by: ChorniyVolk
Can it run it at all? I was mainly looking at Batman AA

nvidia's $129 card out today outperforms amd's 5870 because of the hardware physix capability etc etc.

you can hack amd cards to run physix unless you're on win 7.

Wait, what's that about a $129 card outperforming the 5870?

And yes, I'll be using Windows 7.

Nvidia said in a press release that because ATi cards tank in performance on PhysX benchmarks and Nvidia cards don't, that means Nvidia cards at every price point are more powerful than ATi cards at every price point.

The person you quoted was sarcastically referring to that bit of aggressive stupidity.

Originally posted by: bryanW1995
you can hack amd cards to run physix unless you're on win 7.

Haven't heard anything about that since last year, when it wasn't yet running on the 4000 series.

 

[ZimZum]

Originally posted by: Keysplayr

Originally posted by: nitromullet

Originally posted by: Keysplayr
...Keep in mind though, that if you get the 5870 now at current pricing, and Fermi comes and destroys it, you won't get nearly what you paid for the 5870...

...I have to stress again the fact that the PhysX driver hack may not always be doable, or prevented in future driver revisions...

Oh noes... I bought a 5870!!!

I feel so...
...so afraid...
...so uncertain
...so doubtful...


The 5870 has actually gone up in price since I bought mine, due to low availability. Not that this is a good thing for buyers or ATI.

However, the OP could realistically buy a 5870, try it out for a bit, and sell it with very minimal loss. I actually did that with a 4870 X2 last year. I think I 'rented' that card for about $20-30. It all worked out... Newegg/ATI made a sale, I got to test out both of the top cards and decide which one I preferred, plus the buyer got an almost brand new 4870 X2 at a slight discount.

DUDE!! I didn't mean it THAT way.
This guy is looking to dump whatever he gets now when Fermi comes out. Possibly. Just seems like a lot of cash to spend on something you'll dump in a few months.

Your assuming that: Fermi will be out in a couple of months, will outperform 5850/5870, will be priced competitively, and that it will have enough of a performance edge on 58xx to justify "dumping" it. Thats allot of assumptions.

The 58xx wont turn into a pumpkin just because Fermi comes out. It will still be a fast card and it will still handle most anything you throw at it. Even with 58xx series out the prices on used 4870/4890 on Ebay are still not that far off from what they cost new. Same will be true of 58xx. You will still be able to sell it and take a minimal loss. Or you can add another in Crossfire and have something that will outperform any single GPU available including Fermi.

 

[nitromullet]

What card should I get for physx processing? Is the lack of suggestions implying that the 9600gso is my best choice?

Personally, I wouldn't invest any cash into a card that will only function as a PhysX card with a driver 'hack'. Don't get me wrong, if I had an extra PhysX capable card already laying around I'd do it, but I wouldn't spend any money on something with a doubtful future. If PhysX means that much to you, then get an NVIDIA card.

 

[alcoholbob]

Lol, 9600GSO for physx? In Batman AA you need a 9800GTX/GTS250 as a co-render card to get physx to run near full speed, and a GTX 260 is still faster. If anything, physx is not an optimized codepath that it would take a $170 GPU on the side to run one out of twenty games that have inefficient physics code like Batman AA.

Last time I checked Crysis has a perfectly functional physics system that can handle 10,000s of colliding objects with CPU acceleration.

Batman AA was created by a small foreign studio, it's no wonder their physics coding is so unoptimized.

 

[Nox51]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: OCguy


We really dont know much about the next gen nV card, so anyone here pretending they know what would be better/worse than 5XXX..well....yea.

Well we do know that it will support DX11 and PhysX. So you get the best of both worlds.

While there are really no DX11 games there are plenty of PhysX titles available.

Oh yes let's compare an industry wide standard with a closed in vendor specific standard. Brilliant man, pure genius. Fucking hell...

 

[ChorniyVolk]

Originally posted by: Astrallite
Lol, 9600GSO for physx? In Batman AA you need a 9800GTX/GTS250 as a co-render card to get physx to run near full speed, and a GTX 260 is still faster. If anything, physx is not an optimized codepath that it would take a $170 GPU on the side to run one out of twenty games that have inefficient physics code like Batman AA.

Last time I checked Crysis has a perfectly functional physics system that can handle 10,000s of colliding objects with CPU acceleration.

Batman AA was created by a small foreign studio, it's no wonder their physics coding is so unoptimized.

Well that's depressing.

Are there any physx titles that use it well enough like Batman does? I don't know if a scene with fluttering papers would be worth that kind of price tag.

And as far as getting an nvidia card, for the performance, what else competes in the price range of a 5850 and a 4870 CF set up? I'm assuming, nothing. Plus, even if I did get an nvidia card, wouldn't physx take a large chunk of performance power from it anyway, so I'd have to get a standalone physx card to support that anyway?

 

[Painman]

Well, so far, nV has failed to put PhysX on my radar screen in any other form than a stream of musky piss from Huang's shriveled dick right into my eye socket, for having had the audacity to buy an ATi card as my main render device.

Urinating into your customer base's face... now that's a novel marketing approach.

Sorry, Jen-Hsun. I'm not going there. Not buying any dumbass Batman game/marketing ploy either.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: Astrallite
Lol, 9600GSO for physx? In Batman AA you need a 9800GTX/GTS250 as a co-render card to get physx to run near full speed, and a GTX 260 is still faster. If anything, physx is not an optimized codepath that it would take a $170 GPU on the side to run one out of twenty games that have inefficient physics code like Batman AA.

Last time I checked Crysis has a perfectly functional physics system that can handle 10,000s of colliding objects with CPU acceleration.

Batman AA was created by a small foreign studio, it's no wonder their physics coding is so unoptimized.

I think a 9600GSO does just fine dude.
http://jkamassociates.com:8888/index.htm

Only a bit shy of a 8800GTS 512 in Batman AA.

Actually, 9600GSO in most cases, seems to be the sweet spot, or just before the point of diminishing returns. Don't you think?

 

[ChorniyVolk]

Originally posted by: Keysplayr

Originally posted by: Astrallite
Lol, 9600GSO for physx? In Batman AA you need a 9800GTX/GTS250 as a co-render card to get physx to run near full speed, and a GTX 260 is still faster. If anything, physx is not an optimized codepath that it would take a $170 GPU on the side to run one out of twenty games that have inefficient physics code like Batman AA.

Last time I checked Crysis has a perfectly functional physics system that can handle 10,000s of colliding objects with CPU acceleration.

Batman AA was created by a small foreign studio, it's no wonder their physics coding is so unoptimized.

I think a 9600GSO does just fine dude.
http://jkamassociates.com:8888/index.htm

Only a bit shy of a 8800GTS 512 in Batman AA.

Actually, 9600GSO in most cases, seems to be the sweet spot, or just before the point of diminishing returns. Don't you think?

Hmm, that does look like good news, as far as the 9600.

Any counter arguments?

 

[ChorniyVolk]

Also, reposting my questions from above in an easier to reply to format.

1. Alright, so, this is the best option for me: 5850 overclocked? Would like some comments on that CF 4870 1GB option though, if it does perform better than even the 5870 at that price, I don't think it would be smart to not consider it an option. And still thinking about the 5870 as well, overclocked you guys say the gap between it and the 5850 is further closed, but I wonder, if games are really pushing this hardware, and if a hundred bucks or so isn't that big a deal, if the 5870 isn't worth it. Well once I know whether I have 2 or 3 options, that'll be the big question. Any nvidia cards that are worth noting for that price to match performance? I'm assuming not, after so many posts and not even one recommendation.

2. Fuck 60 FPS, what games are like to dip below 30FPS with that set up assuming my cpu isn't bottlenecking the game (which I really doubt would be the case, for obvious reasons)? AA on or off?

3. Also, somewhat related, that Super AA stuff that the 5000 series implements, is that exclusive to ATI, or is it just a DX11 feature? I like the idea that I can turn it on and old games look delicious, that's a justifiable use of AA. Is that the default AA that is also to be used in newer games? And with the 5000 series, AA won't take that big a chunk off of performance, you say?

I omitted the physx card choice question, if the benchmarks in Keysplayr's link are anything to go on, the 9600 would indeed be the best for price : performance, eh?

 

[Painman]

I've seen how useful a thing like CUDA can be to non-gaming spheres like the medical imaging community. That's great. Yet Huang has still pissed in my face. And it's ironic that he's done so, because his much vaunted PhysX/CUDA has yet to mean anything to me.

Maybe that's why he pisses in my face. Frustration? I'm just so freakin' Won Over. :roll:

 

[Keysplayr]

Painman. If PhysX/CUDA means nothing to you, why then do you feel like your face has been pissed in? If you didn't care one bit, I'd expect a comment like, "meh, who cares?" . Not something like, "I feel like Nvidia pissed in my cheerios." To me, that means you do obviously care.
So how much longer are you going to tell us that you could care less about PhysX and then in the next breath tell us how upset (face,piss) you are. I've never seen anyone "not" care about something so adamently. Except maybe a girl who is in love but will never admit it.
You know the saying, "the lady doth protest too much."? I think we are seeing a relative of that situation here.

 

[ChorniyVolk]

On the other hand, his piss metaphors are a joy to imagine in the literal sense.

I mean, does it splatter everywhere and there lies the complaint, because certain areas are off limits while others are a-okay, or is it the entire act that's unpleasant, but made moreso unpleasant by specific aim towards the face?

So many questions.

Would love it if someone answered mine though, from a few posts above.

And also, I looked at how much money I had to waste, and thought about how I don't spend it on much else, so maybe the 5870 is worthwhile after all. So all I'd need is a few favorable comments towards the 4870 1GB x2 option and I'd have a nice round number of 3 options to choose from.

but more important are my other concerns above.

And thanks guys, I really appreciate all the info and help.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Originally posted by: ChorniyVolk
Also, reposting my questions from above in an easier to reply to format.

1. Alright, so, this is the best option for me: 5850 overclocked? Would like some comments on that CF 4870 1GB option though, if it does perform better than even the 5870 at that price, I don't think it would be smart to not consider it an option. And still thinking about the 5870 as well, overclocked you guys say the gap between it and the 5850 is further closed, but I wonder, if games are really pushing this hardware, and if a hundred bucks or so isn't that big a deal, if the 5870 isn't worth it. Well once I know whether I have 2 or 3 options, that'll be the big question. Any nvidia cards that are worth noting for that price to match performance? I'm assuming not, after so many posts and not even one recommendation.

2. Fuck 60 FPS, what games are like to dip below 30FPS with that set up assuming my cpu isn't bottlenecking the game (which I really doubt would be the case, for obvious reasons)? AA on or off?

3. Also, somewhat related, that Super AA stuff that the 5000 series implements, is that exclusive to ATI, or is it just a DX11 feature? I like the idea that I can turn it on and old games look delicious, that's a justifiable use of AA. Is that the default AA that is also to be used in newer games? And with the 5000 series, AA won't take that big a chunk off of performance, you say?

I omitted the physx card choice question, if the benchmarks in Keysplayr's link are anything to go on, the 9600 would indeed be the best for price : performance, eh?

The 5850 is better bang for the buck than the 5870... it's over $100 cheaper or more than 25% cheaper, but much closer in performance than 25%. Basically AMD can charge a bit of a premium for the 5870 since it's the fastest single GPU you can get. The problem with Nvidia's offerings is that the closest card they have to the 5850 is the GTX285, which actually costs quite a bit more for less performance! Infact looking at Newegg, the GTX285 is priced closer to 5870 levels. From a feature stand point, it's completely subjective based on what you feel is more important. I think AMD's 58x0 cards have more and better features personally, but someone else may feel Physx is more important than DX11... I'll take the opposite. Basically, the 5850 has pretty well made the GTX285 at it's current pricing just not make any sense to all but the biggest Nvidia fan boys.

I'm not sure if AMD's AA modes are required for DX11, but I believe they are not. One thing AMD really did right with the 58x0 cards are it's features. They really added and improved a lot of things beside performance. In a way they've given old games some new life with their new AA modes, and given you what you need for future games with DX11. One of the things I've heard over and over here in the past was that Nvidia's AF was very much superior to AMD's, but it looks like AMD addressed that with the 58x0 and now they have the superior AF (I never saw a difference myself, but others do).

Either the 5850 or 5870 would be safe bets, and most likely have enough horsepower to last you a long time. It's really just a question of if you feel the 5870's performance advantage is worth it's price premium over the 5850.

 

[CyberAtomix]

ok we don't have that much concrete info on fermi yet but on your topic tittle all i see is flame-Bait all over why? Cause:
1:no one can give you a Definitive answer yet without benchmarks from the Green Goblin Side
and you will have a Flame war happening from both sides of the Looney-Fanboy Clubs
2: There is lots of speculation around the web were you can research looking for info without flame-baiting, that includes these forums were you can find info by the search engine here.
Now keep in mind that this is my Opinion thats all and that i don't have nothing personal
but making threads about an Nvidia card that we know little about only makes more and more speculations run wild.

now my personal Opinion is that Fermi will be Quicker than the 5870 by how much i don't know but by then ATI will have the x2 version out.

 

[LCD123]

If you plan to upgrade again in a few months, just get two hd4850s they will be similar to the hd5850 for much cheaper and the hd4850s will keep their resale value better.

 

[Cookie Monster]

What does the 5870 do better than their expected top card?

At the top of my head, its price. When it comes to GPGPU capabilities, Fermi looks to be the better solution (not to mention its half rate DP performance!) not to mention that CUDA is already 3 years old giving it a bigger advantage. Being an engineering student its fascinating to see some of my colleagues working on projects based on CUDA for their final year projects.

When it comes to gaming, we've yet to see what Fermi has to offer. Its too early to tell, but nVIDIA still has the better AF implementation. Although the AF pattern looks quite good (according to the flower shape anyway), the ATi solutions still undersamples which still leads to the texture shimmering. Mind you that Angle dependency has nothing to do with shimmering. This has been confirmed by Novum, the guy who coded the 3DCenter Filter Tester

 

[ChorniyVolk]

So I got on anandtech today and I saw that article on prices.

5800 series going up in price over time? Damn, that doesn't sound good.

I'm thinking that the 4870 CF solution is the best, they can't go down much more over time so I could probably hock them for a lesser depreciation in value compared to the 5000 series, right? And can anyone confirm that they'll perform better than the 5870? I mean, I'll be missing out on DX11 and on that awesome AA, but if they're more powerful than the 5870 for the cost of a 5850 (once I sell the PSU that is), then they sound like the best option for me as far as the renting thing goes.

I'd check benchmarks, but google only gives me stuff a year old, which has no comparison to the 5800 series, and I'm assuming drivers have improved performance since then.

 

[spinejam]

imo, get a used 4870x2 2gb as a temp. @ 1920x1200, it will run everything you throw at it as well as hold it's value more than 2 separate 4870's will. when the 5870 stock improves(and prices drop - hopefully), sell the 4870x2 and upgrade.

fwiw, my rig in sig scores p15463 in 3dmark vantage and 22816 3dmark06.

it's plenty fast in 1920x1200 gaming too!

just my opinion, and you know everyone's got one!

 

[cbn]

UPDATE: This thread got big, so I thought I'd update the thread title and OP post with my current question: Which of the three should I go with, 5850 for the current prices, 5870 for the current prices, or two 4870's in CF for $330 minus what I can get for selling the PSU in the combo deal? Where does the 4870CF go in terms of a tier list for performance between the 2 5800 cards?

Just that I was about to buy a 5870 and then I started thinking that with what Nvidia have been doing with all the Physx exclusives and whatnot, I'm worried about their next series being better, even if it is through really shitty practices.

I'm just an uninformed consumer, what does the 5870 do to make it worthwhile other than be out way earlier?

Also, sidenote: Is Powercolor an okay company? A site has their 5870 at a great price and they offer 2 year warranty, but I've never heard of them.

I wouldn't buy Nvidia for Physx.....hardly any game uses GPU Physx right now. (CPU Physx is a different story)

I have a HD4870 1GB right now and it is a pretty strong card. If you want to spend money go with a HD5850 if at all possible (It is much better on power consumption and supports DX11)

 

[ChorniyVolk]

Well answer me this: Are two 4870 1GB cards running together in Crossfire more powerful than the 5850? 5870? Less powerful?

I'd be getting them for a great price, if I can get a decent amount for the PSU they'll cost even less than the 5850, and I'm alright with missing out on DX11 as there aren't any games I want to play using it right now IIRC.

Spinejam, by x2 you mean two cards, or the one with two GPU's? Someone in this thread said that two cards in crossfire do better than the x2.

 

[spinejam]

Well answer me this: Are two 4870 1GB cards running together in Crossfire more powerful than the 5850? 5870? Less powerful?

I'd be getting them for a great price, if I can get a decent amount for the PSU they'll cost even less than the 5850, and I'm alright with missing out on DX11 as there aren't any games I want to play using it right now IIRC.

Spinejam, by x2 you mean two cards, or the one with two GPU's? Someone in this thread said that two cards in crossfire do better than the x2.

one card (2-gpus)

 

[ChorniyVolk]

Oh nevermind, they said it was equal to an X2, not that it's better: "Are your HD 4870's 512MB or 1GB version? If they're the 1GB version are as fast as a single HD 4870X2 which is often slighly faster than the HD 5870."

So is that true? I mean, if I'm getting more power than the 5870 for a lower price than the 5850, I'm alright with missing out on DX11 (no games I like using it right now), AA for older games (if it's that mind blowing, I guess the Fermi release will have competition in my eyes), or Eyefinity (one monitor ftw).

 

[spinejam]

Oh nevermind, they said it was equal to an X2, not that it's better: "Are your HD 4870's 512MB or 1GB version? If they're the 1GB version are as fast as a single HD 4870X2 which is often slighly faster than the HD 5870."

So is that true? I mean, if I'm getting more power than the 5870 for a lower price than the 5850, I'm alright with missing out on DX11 (no games I like using it right now), AA for older games (if it's that mind blowing, I guess the Fermi release will have competition in my eyes), or Eyefinity (one monitor ftw).

This is my card: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814102768

 

[lavaheadache]

imo, get a used 4870x2 2gb as a temp. @ 1920x1200, it will run everything you throw at it as well as hold it's value more than 2 separate 4870's will. when the 5870 stock improves(and prices drop - hopefully), sell the 4870x2 and upgrade.

fwiw, my rig in sig scores p15463 in 3dmark vantage and 22816 3dmark06.

it's plenty fast in 1920x1200 gaming too!

just my opinion, and you know everyone's got one!

Excellent advice.

I just traded my ps3 and GTX 280 for a HD4870x2 and a 1 gig HD4870. Trifire is working without a hitch and has handled everything I've threw at it.

I'm Still planning on upgrading when either Fermi is released or I can get my hands on a hd5870 .