Update (04-19-10): Ordered Denon 1610

[kalrith]

perhaps you could pick up a 1610/590 from a store to try it out?

That's an interesting thought, but it would definitely drive the price up. Best Buy has it for $376 after tax, and the only other Denon dealer has a display model for $344 after tax, although I might be able to talk them down an extra $20-30. I could go and check it out in the store just to look at it, but obviously it would be better to try it out on my own speakers.

 

[s44]

I dunno. I've run average efficiency (87db) speakers off a hefty AVR (a little more juice than any of your listed options) from 11 feet and have felt the need for more dynamic headroom. Transient peaks will go way higher than your average listening level. You won't necessarily notice between 90W and 75W, but you *will* notice between 200W and 75W.

I guess making your speaker upgrade high-efficiency is one way of making sure this is never an issue, but that's a significant restriction these days.

 

[kalrith]

honestly dynamic volume and EQ make a small difference, but not nearly as much as multEQ. i would just get your favorite http://www.dakmart.com/Audio-Home-A...HDMI-1.3A-RECEIVER-AUTH-DLR/product_info.html

Can anyone else chime in on this? If I remove them from my limitations, then it opens up a couple more receiver options, namely the 888 (same as 2308) for $345.

 

[s44]

How is the 888 an improvement? Still no pre-outs.

 

[kalrith]

How is the 888 an improvement? Still no pre-outs.

Well, it has a bit more power, but I guess that small increase won't make much of a difference. Accessories4Less just listed the 707 at $30 more, so if it wasn't out of my price range before, it definitely is now.

I'm leaning more towards the 1610 now. Here are my main reasons for buying a new reciever, and I think the 1610 provides all of them:

HDMI lossless audio
Audyssey technologies (esp. MultEQ)
Being able to pass all video to TV with HDMI cable
Allowing me to move my Panasonic receiver to my computer room
​

The only other issue here for me is power. If power won't make enough of a difference without an amp, then the choice is really between the 1610 and the 707. At its new $470 price (after cashback), the 707 really is out of my price range.

If I'm lucky, here's what my upgrade path will look like. In 2-3 years upgrade all 5 speakers plus sub. In another 2-3 years possibly upgrade the power as well. I'll be lucky if I can come up with the extra money for (and convince the wife to spend it on) a speaker upgrade. I won't be able to get speakers and an amp at the same time (and there's no point in getting an amp for my current speakers), so at best I'd be getting an amp about 5 years from now.

Given the changes that will occur in receivers over the next 5 years, I think I'm better off nixing the pre-out requirement and planning on upgrade my receiver or getting a pre-pro whenever I need more power. I guess I was hoping that somehow I'd be able to do a full-speaker and amp upgrade in just a couple years, but to be honest, that just isn't going to happen.

With all that being said, do you think the 1610 is a good choice for me, or is there something else I should be looking at?

 

[s44]

I definitely think the 590/1610 is the best budget AVR deal in ages. IMO nothing below the Onkyo 707 (pre-outs) or 1007 (XT, pre-outs, etc.) is really worth it (over the 590/1610 that is).

Too bad Pioneer crippled the 1019 compared to the 1018.

 

[KIAman]

I've purchased the Denon AVR-1909 last year because of all the things you specified. Out of all the features, I have yet to use Dynamic Volume or EQ all that much, if at all. Audyssey EQ, is amazing. I used the thing for 1 week without using it and thought everything sounded fine. Once I got some 30 minutes of quiet time, I used their feature and it was a night and day difference in sound quality.

Also, another feature that I absolutely love is being able to convert incoming video/sound to HDMI, leaving the connection between the TV and Receiver to only a single HDMI cable. Wonderous!

 

[kalrith]

Update: For $370 I could get a pair of ELT525 towers and an ELT525 center. Would these speakers totally blow my Polk R50 towers and CSi25 center out of the water? For the same price, it seems that I could make a much bigger difference in my HT system. The only negative I see is the 85dB efficiency.

Edit: And does anyone know how the ELT525 speakers would compare to the Polk Monitor 70 and CS2? The Polks can be had for around $440 on a good sale.

 

[vi edit]

The ELT center is really not that well regarded and easily the weakest link in the combo. I'll post some more comments in the morning...I'm tired

 

[s44]

The only negative I see is the 85dB efficiency.

And the fact that you're enriching a criminal piece of crap?

 

[kalrith]

The ELT center is really not that well regarded and easily the weakest link in the combo. I'll post some more comments in the morning...I'm tired

Yeah, I was just reading about that. It's sad that the towers can be set at a 60Hz crossover, but the center needs a 100Hz crossover. Some people do modifications on theirs to make them sound better, but some of those modifications cost more than the speaker itself :\.

And the fact that you're enriching a criminal piece of crap?

Yeah, there is that. Some people limit their shopping choices according to the ethics of the business (i.e. don't shop at Walmart), but I'm not one of them.

The ELT thought was just a random one. If I do a speaker upgrade, it will probably be a more major one than that. I'll probably be sticking with the Denon 1610 for $306 from Electronics-Expo. I read about some problems sending LPCM to the Denons with older firmware and that the ones manufactured this year had the latest firmware without any of those problems.

Electronics-Expo said that they could guarantee a newer one if I placed the order over the phone. It would negate my Bing cashback, but that's questionable anyways since I'm using a coupon code. If I did get one with an older firmware, I'd have to pay to ship it to a Denon service center, which would likely be as much as the $18 CB I might get.

Thanks again for all the help. I'll post my impressions once I get the receiver (unless I change my mind AGAIN).

 

[vi edit]

Kalrith, if I remember right you are fairly handy right? You've done a decent amount of home repair.

Give the DIY speaker route some thought. If you've got a table saw & a router you are good to go. And the table saw isn't even a requirement, just makes cuts easier.

For around $420 after materials the N3 kit from GR Research is quite a bargain. These things have glowing reviews.

http://www.gr-research.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=151

A good weekend and you can get the cabinets roughed in. Then another weeks worth of hour or two a night to do the finishing and you'll have a set of speakers you won't want to upgrade for a long time. You can also build a matched center channel to go with them.

 

[kalrith]

Well, I really liked the DIY route you took with your subwoofer, so I'll definitely give it some thought for the speakers as well. Time isn't something I have a lot of right now, so it'll be a good time to upgrade my receiver since that doesn't require that much time. When it is time for the speaker upgrade, I'll have to do more than just check and see what deals are out there. I'll have to put a lot of time and thought into it and read a ton of reviews as well.

I had already researched receivers a lot, so I basically know what I'm looking for, and I think the Denon 1610 will fit the bill. If I ever need more power in the future, then I'll deal with that situation then.

 

[vshah]

fyi i bought my 1610 from electronics-expo (in store) last november, and I don't have any problems with LPCM. ordered online for in store pickup and bing cashback worked as well...

 

[kalrith]

fyi i bought my 1610 from electronics-expo (in store) last november, and I don't have any problems with LPCM. ordered online for in store pickup and bing cashback worked as well...

Well, I suppose I could order it online with bing CB and hope that there are no problems with LPCM. If there are, then I'll just have to pay the $15 to ship it to the service center, and the firmware upgrade and return shipping will be free.

I just read some more on the 1610 LPCM issue, and here's a quote from avsforum:

HDMI LPCM issue
Another issue that was just recently identified (and therefore not resolved by the above update) for these (4) models only is the inability for Dyn Eq and Dyn Vol to work correctly with HDMI LPCM audio (ie BDP is doing the decoding) even though the Dyn Eq and Dyn Vol lights are lit. Those models with serial numbers beginning with "9" would likely have this issue. A newer firmware update is now available (Jan '10) for these (4) models that would also include fixes for the bitstream issues mentioned above. Although all new production units beginning Jan '10 (serial number starting with "001") will include the first firmware update, they may NOT include this second firmware update. It has been reported though that units beginning with "003" (March '10) will likely have both updates installed. The serial number is located on the back of the AVR as well as on the box itself. Your best bet is to ask for the most recent model they have received if possible, ideally "003".

If the "LPCM" (which includes the "bitstream" firmware update as well) has been installed, the Main Ver # = 00.89, Sub Ver# = 00.26. (Note: The only difference between this update and the former update will be the change in Sub Ver# from 00.24 to 00.26)

So, it looks like I'd actually need a model from March 2010 to be pretty certain of the firmware upgrade. I'll probably check with Electronics Expo and see if they can guarantee me one of those. Or I might just take my chances in order to get the bing cashback.

 

[vshah]

ah i see. i haven't checked to see that specific situation. worst case scenario, just make the denon do the decoding instead of your BD player?

 

[kalrith]

ah i see. i haven't checked to see that specific situation. worst case scenario, just make the denon do the decoding instead of your BD player?

The Denon will work just fine with bitstreamed HD codecs. However, with LPCM (like with my fat PS3), I have to choose between sending lossless LPCM or lossy bitstreamed DD 5.1 if I want to have Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume work.

 

[vshah]

The Denon will work just fine with bitstreamed HD codecs. However, with LPCM (like with my fat PS3), I have to choose between sending lossless LPCM or lossy bitstreamed DD 5.1 if I want to have Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume work.

ah, didn't realize the PS3 didn't bitstream.

 

[fstime]

You may want to stay away from AV123, assuming you have not heard the recent news regarding their business practices.

 

[vshah]

nm, saw that you have a sub in your sig

 

[kalrith]

ah, didn't realize the PS3 didn't bitstream.

The slim does, but the fat doesn't.

Update (04-19-10): I ordered the Denon 1610. I agree with s44 that there aren't any receivers worth getting over the 1610 before hitting the $470 Onkyo 707. If my CB goes through (even though I used a coupon code), then the 1610 will be $288 shipped, which is obviously much, much closer to the $260 target price than $470 would've been. I also won't have to worry about the heat issue so much.

I rarely (if ever) listen to anywhere close to reference levels (my receiver never dips below -25 dB), and everything I've read says that even the power difference between 75W and 150W (let alone 75W and 100W) won't be noticeable at normal listening levels. When I upgrade my speakers, I'll stick with high-efficiency ones. If I ever do get an amp for my speakers, it probably won't be until some new crazy features and HDMI 1.5 or 1.6 are out, so it'll be time to upgrade the receiver (or get a pre-pro) anyways.

Thanks for all the help. I'll update this thread once I receive it. I hope that I don't have any of the firmware problems I mentioned. If I do, I'm just going to live with them for a while. It seems that Denon is doing firmware updates every few months, and I'd rather wait a little while and get as many updates done at one time instead of sending my receiver to them a couple times.

Electronics-expo said that all of their 1610s are from a February shipment, so they shouldn't have the problems of the '09 models, but they might not have the Jan. 2010 firmware update.

 

[BigSmooth]

Congrats on making a decision; I am a very careful buyer like you are and it always feels good when I finally pull the trigger. I am sure you'll be happy with the receiver.

 

[vshah]

congrats, its a great little receiver. i've been enjoying mine a lot so far.

 

[JackBurton]

You may want to stay away from AV123, assuming you have not heard the recent news regarding their business practices.

Sooooooooo, what is the recent news about AV123? I haven't heard anything about it and I'm curious to know what happened.

 

[Chronoshock]

Sooooooooo, what is the recent news about AV123? I haven't heard anything about it and I'm curious to know what happened.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1230591

Aside from the quasi-philosophical issues of buying from a company run by a man willing to defraud charities and its customers, pragmatically speaking, the company's future is unclear making warranty support and customer service somewhat hazy.