Update (04-19-10): Ordered Denon 1610

[JackBurton]

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1230591

Aside from the quasi-philosophical issues of buying from a company run by a man willing to defraud charities and its customers, pragmatically speaking, the company's future is unclear making warranty support and customer service somewhat hazy.

Thanks Chronoshock. That's pretty bad.

 

[vshah]

set it up yet kalrith?

 

[kalrith]

It's supposed to arrive tomorrow. Hopefully I'll have (or make) time tomorrow night to get it set up.

 

[kalrith]

Cliffs: I like my Denon 1610

Well, I'm very pleased to report that I received the most recently manufactured model with the latest firmware. That means I shouldn't have the problems between the Denon and my phat PS3 that some of the older firmwares had. Obviously it would be free to get the firmware flashed under warranty, but I'd be out about $20 (one-way shipping) and a couple weeks of usage to send it to a repair center.

I installed it Friday night, and it was pretty straight forward. It's really nice just having one HDMI cable connected to the TV, especially once I wall-mount. I plan on still routing a few HDMI cables through the wall just in case one fails. I also got to remove the optical cables from my PS3 and HTPC.

I really like the look of it in my entertainment center (haven't taken pics yet, sorry). It's about twice as tall and 3 times as heavy as my old Panasonic receiver. I had to do a little rearranging to fit it in there, but I managed to do so and have at least 1 1/2" of clearance above it and an opening in the front and back, so overheating shouldn't be an issue. I'll have more room on my shelves once I wall-mount the TV and put the center speaker on top of the entertainment center. That should make the speaker sound better as well.

I haven't had a lot of time to listen to it, but it does seem that I have to turn it up louder than I did with my Panasonic. I never turned my Panasonic up past -25dB, so I'm not concerned about maxing out the volume and still wanting more, but it definitely seems quieter at the same dB setting. I'll know tonight or tomorrow how much of a difference there is when I watch one of my regular TV shows.

I didn't want to do a lot of comparisons between the two receivers until I ran the Audyssey MultEQ, and I just ran that last night. I couldn't find my tripod anywhere, so I had to screw it on top of a lamp where the light shade usually goes . I read about that idea on avsforum, and it actually worked really well. I placed it on a hard book on my couch to make it stable, and then placed it on a box in from of the couch for some additional measurements.

It took a lot longer than I thought it would to run MultEQ. This is mainly because I was trying to get my subwoofer's volume to within +/- 3dB, and that took about 6-8 run throughs to get it right. I'd run MultEQ, then wait for it to calculate, then check the subwoofer trim level, adjust the volume, and run MultEQ again. My wife wasn't in a bad mood this morning, so I assume she slept through all of that even though it was quite loud, and the speakers are up against the wall to our bedroom. I was in there one time while the subwoofer was chirping, and it sounded like someone was trying to beat down our door .

Once I adjusted the subwoofer volume how I wanted it (the trim level read -1.5dB), I ran it through the 6 calibration positions. I was surprised that it placed my cheap Polk R50 speakers at FullBand and my CSi25 center at 40Hz. I adjusted both crossovers to 60Hz and placed the subwoofer LPF at 80Hz. I might adjust the crossovers to 80Hz, which is where I had them on my Panasonic receiver, but I'm going to try them at 60Hz for a while. That plus turning on Dynamic Volume (on the day setting, which adjusts the volume the least) are the only changes I made after Audyssey completed.

I'm looking forward to watching some HD shows and seeing how the speakers sound, especially on shows that I'm used to watching and can make a pretty direct comparison between the two receivers.

My next step is to connect my computer speakers to my Panasonic receiver. I just hope I can get my computer sub to play nice with the receiver.

 

[Aikouka]

I purchased a Denon 1610 today too . If anyone else is interested, it's on sale now at a lot of retailers for around $310, so a little bit more than EE had it, but still a decent deal. If you want 7.1, the 1910 is now around $350 to $380.

Now I just need to find a good array of speakers and purchase some good source material for testing them .

 

[vshah]

hmm, the 1611 was just announced. can't find solid specs for it online, but one british mag says 110wpc x 5...interesting

 

[kalrith]

hmm, the 1611 was just announced. can't find solid specs for it online, but one british mag says 110wpc x 5...interesting

Denon basically fudged the numbers by stating the power at 6 ohms instead of 8 ohms. This pdf product page shows that it's rated at 120W/ch (6 ohms, .7% THD) and 75W/ch (8 ohms, 0.08% THD). The latter is identical to the rating on the 1610; therefore, zero power increase has been made other than in the marketing department

 

[vshah]

Denon basically fudged the numbers by stating the power at 6 ohms instead of 8 ohms. This pdf product page shows that it's rated at 120W/ch (6 ohms, .7% THD) and 75W/ch (8 ohms, 0.08% THD). The latter is identical to the rating on the 1610; therefore, zero power increase has been made other than in the marketing department

ah,that's more like it. 3d features etc. i can live without, but the hdmi gui overlay would have been nice.

 

[kalrith]

ah,that's more like it. 3d features etc. i can live without, but the hdmi gui overlay would have been nice.

I was totally bummed when I first saw the power "increase," but once I realized they fudged the numbers, I was very relieved in light of my recent 1610 purchase.

 

[s44]

I purchased a Denon 1610 today too . If anyone else is interested, it's on sale now at a lot of retailers for around $310, so a little bit more than EE had it, but still a decent deal.

Actually, J&R now has it at $300, free shipping, before 5% BCB (so $285 final unless you're in NY and have to pay tax). Not sure if it will go to an even deeper clearance price once the 1611 actually shows up...

 

[kalrith]

I have a question about my 1610. I've been a bit disappointed by how much more I have to turn it up than my Panasonic reciever (i.e. -15 dB on Denon = -35 dB on Panasonic). Last night I had my HTPC muted so I decided to turn the receiver all the way up, and it went up to +18 dB! Do most receivers go into the positive range? I always thought that 0 dB was max volume. I'll have to plug my Panasonic receiver in and see how high it goes. If the Panasonic tops out at 0 dB, then I think the Denon is just as loud (or just a tick or two quieter, which doesn't matter).

BTW, I noticed a very big sound improvement on Survivor last night. The speakers blended in better and sounded much fuller (which is probably due in part to the crossover being dropped from 80 Hz to 60 Hz). I was very impressed with how well the bass blended in with the speakers. I think the sub calibration made a big difference, and I'm very glad I went with MultEQ instead of settling for 2EQ (which does nothing with the sub).

I did make another change besides just the receiver, and I'm not certain what difference it would've made. I moved each main over a foot to give them 8' of separation instead of 6'. I also moved them closer to the wall, about 6" compared to 12-15" as before. What changes would that make to the sound? I moved them to keep them out of my son's path of destruction

 

[vshah]

every receiver i've ever used (3 denons and a couple yamahas) has gone up into positive dB

 

[Anubis]

I have a question about my 1610. I've been a bit disappointed by how much more I have to turn it up than my Panasonic reciever (i.e. -15 dB on Denon = -35 dB on Panasonic). Last night I had my HTPC muted so I decided to turn the receiver all the way up, and it went up to +18 dB! Do most receivers go into the positive range? I always thought that 0 dB was max volume. I'll have to plug my Panasonic receiver in and see how high it goes. If the Panasonic tops out at 0 dB, then I think the Denon is just as loud (or just a tick or two quieter, which doesn't matter).

i noticed the same thing with my 1910 vs my old JVC, ill have to check if the JVC does positive numbers when i get home, if it does its news to me i never had to turn it up that loud

 

[kalrith]

every receiver i've ever used (3 denons and a couple yamahas) has gone up into positive dB

Hmmm...well, if that's true, then why would there be such a difference in volume between the Denon and Panasonic? Why would -15 dB on a 75W/ch receiver equal -35 dB on a 100W/ch receiver, or do those settings not really affect max-volume output? My Panasonic could almost chase me out of the room at -25 dB, and now I'm concerned that I'll have to put the Denon into positive dB to attain that volume level.

I guess here's my real question. If I did have to run the Denon at max volume to reach the volume I like during my "loud" (i.e. wife's not home) sessions, will there be any sort of sound degredation or other negative impact since it's at its max whereas the Panasonic had lots more headroom at that same volume?

Edit: I do plan to check my Panasonic receiver tonight for its max volume. I did a quick Google search and couldn't find the answer.

 

[vi edit]

There's a couple things that might be happening.

1) what inputs are you comparing? I wonder if the panasonic is applying a little boost to the source

2) while the denon may be "not as loud" it's probably not distorting as much either

0db is supposed to be where the amp runs out of power, minus some dynamic/on demand reserve and up to the point where distortion kicks in. Panasonic could be fudging theirs a bit and introducing distortion earlier.

 

[kalrith]

There's a couple things that might be happening.

1) what inputs are you comparing? I wonder if the panasonic is applying a little boost to the source

2) while the denon may be "not as loud" it's probably not distorting as much either

0db is supposed to be where the amp runs out of power, minus some dynamic/on demand reserve and up to the point where distortion kicks in. Panasonic could be fudging theirs a bit and introducing distortion earlier.

That's exactly what I was thinking. I don't care about absolute max volume, and I don't care what dB number the receiver says. All I care about is how good it sounds at the loudest I am willing to set it at. Even if the Panasonic can achieve a louder max volume or fudge the numbers so that -25 dB sounds like -5 dB on the Denon, that doesn't matter as long as the sound from the Denon at my listening volume is as good or better.

Now to answer your questions:

1) I'm comparing the exact same show (Survivor). On my Panasonic the input was SPDIF out from my HTPC. On my Denon it was SPDIF out from my TV's tuner. I kind of screwed up my HTPC's settings by trying to get HDMI audio to work, and I couldn't even get SPDIF audio to work again. I had to watch it live through my TV's tuner. I'm not sure how much of a difference that makes. I should have my HTPC setup with HDMI audio by next Thursday, and can do a more apples-to-apples comparison.

2) Like I said before, the Denon sounded awesome last night. I'm not sure if it's MultEQ, Dynamic Volume, dropping the crossover to 60 Hz, or a combination of all three, but even my wife noticed the improvement in sound quality. We had the receiver at about -12 dB (which was equivalent to -35 dB on the Panasonic), and I would say that's our normal listening volume. When my wife's not around, I turn it up much louder than this and would like it to be much louder than this all the time.

I watched about half of LOTR: The Two Towers on my PS3 connected via SPDIF to the Panasonic a couple weeks ago. The next time I can chase my wife out of the house for a couple hours, I'll watch the second half with my PS3 connected via HDMI to the Denon. I had it on -25 dB on the Panasonic, and that was as loud as I would ever want it with me in the same room (my ears were ringing some afterwards, and I don't want to deafen myself). I know it won't be a back-to-back comparison, but I should still be able to tell when I get to the sweet spot of volume for me. It'll be interesting to see what volume setting that requires on the Denon.

 

[vi edit]

The other question I have is did you apply any volume boost to the individual channels on the panasonic to have them run hotter? Auddessy might be toning them down or leaving them level on the Denon.

 

[kalrith]

The other question I have is did you apply any volume boost to the individual channels on the panasonic to have them run hotter? Auddessy might be toning them down or leaving them level on the Denon.

On the Panasonic I might've had the center at +1 dB, but the rest of the speakers were at 0 dB. I think Audyssey set the mains at -4 dB, the center at -0.5 dB, and the sub at -1.5 dB or something close to that

 

[kalrith]

Well, I'm happy to report that my Panasonic only goes up to 0 dB. From what you guys have said, it seems that the Panny was introducing distortion long before reaching 0 dB. Since the Denon maxes out at +18 dB and sounds as loud as the Panny around -12 to -15 dB, it"s likely extremely close to the Panny in volume, just without the fudging of the numbers.

 

[alcoholbob]

Hmmm...well, if that's true, then why would there be such a difference in volume between the Denon and Panasonic? Why would -15 dB on a 75W/ch receiver equal -35 dB on a 100W/ch receiver, or do those settings not really affect max-volume output? My Panasonic could almost chase me out of the room at -25 dB, and now I'm concerned that I'll have to put the Denon into positive dB to attain that volume level.

I guess here's my real question. If I did have to run the Denon at max volume to reach the volume I like during my "loud" (i.e. wife's not home) sessions, will there be any sort of sound degredation or other negative impact since it's at its max whereas the Panasonic had lots more headroom at that same volume?

Edit: I do plan to check my Panasonic receiver tonight for its max volume. I did a quick Google search and couldn't find the answer.

Panasonic XR55 power output:

(from AVSforum linked review from German magazine):

XR55
Stereo:
2*93W / 8ohm
2*120W / 6ohm
2*169W / 4 ohm
2*206W / 3ohm
2*238W / 2ohm

All channels:
7*86W / 8ohm
7*153W / 4ohm

(only pic I could find online though, the review was so old it's no longer online).

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/siriusc/av/pana/stereoplay_de_XR55_test.jpg

It seems to provide pretty solid power. Not all receivers have equal gain levels, as you seem to have realized.

You wanna see something nutty for a receiver? TX-SR805/875:

http://web4.soundandvisionmag.com/receivers/2463/test-bench-onkyo-tx-sr875-av-receiver.html

Onkyo TX-SR805/875
1 channel driven: 201/322 watts
5 channels driven (8 ohms): 141 watts
7 channels driven (8 ohms): 128 watts
Distortion at 1 watt (THD+N, 1 kHz)
8/4 ohms: 0.02/0.03%

!!! Pretty nice for a receiver with a street price of $500 back in the day (the 805).

I couldn't find anything on the 1610, but I think the AVR-2307 should be comparable at the very least, since it retails at $800.

http://web2.soundandvisionmag.com/receivers/2171/test-bench-denon-avr-2307ci-av-receiver.html

Denon 2307CI
1 channel driven: 140/226 watts
5 channels driven (8 ohms): 86 watts
7 channels driven (8 ohms): 74 watts
Distortion at 1 watt (THD+N, 1 kHz)
8/4 ohms: 0.05/0.06%

This is why they say Onkyo's run hot...it's called drowning with power.

 

[vi edit]

I just grabbed an Onkyo RC180 from Onecall for $549 shipped. I think there's a bing cash back too, but I didn't see that until I checked out.

I'm happy with that price. Plus I saw some Onkyo 707's at vanns for $410-$450 in their clearance/open box sections. Retailers are really gutting inventory to make way for the new stuff.