Up for a MASSAGE of the brain???

[ethebubbeth]

Originally posted by: SoftwareEng

Originally posted by: ethebubbeth
I had to write the exact same paper for my college freshman English class... it was a fun one.

There are two characters in your story, possibly responsible for you failing that class: You and the Professor. Who was more responsible?

I received an A for the course, and an A+ on the paper .

I was most responsible, since I was the one that wrote the paper. The subjectivity of the professor played a part in the final grade, but is not nearly as important as the work itself.

 

[Thraxen]

Originally posted by: DainBramaged
Now that I've read the fault, I have to say that those who don't put the assassin first are dead wrong, at least as far as the law would be concerned. Blaming the wife for charging the bridge knowing that she could die is like saying that you would be more responsible if I kill you after I put up a sign that I would kill anyone who I could see from my house.

I agree with the assassin being 1st, but the wife can be no lower than #2 unless it is proven someone hired the assassin, then she moves to #3. She could have chosen to not cross the bridge and then had to live with her husband coming home and finding her gone.

 

[DAGTA]

Assassin is the only one responsible for her death. He/she made the choice to kill another person.

 

[swtethan]

why would you go take the boat in the first place if the bridge is quicker and FREE?

 

[ethebubbeth]

Here is another course of food for thought... In addition to ranking culpability for the death of the wife, how do your own experiences and biases affect your ranking?

(this was the prompt for the paper I had to write)

 

[akasha]

Its amazing how everyone basically states that it could be the husband that hired the assassin. Who knows, it could have been the lover that did it. He could have wanted a way out of it, pretended he was the husband, hired the assassin, did the whore one last time, called the assassin to let him know she was on the way back home, blah blah blah, and who would eventually get blamed?the husband. Sorry to say, the assassin would verify that the ?husband? hired without even a face to face meeting?hmmmm:laugh:

 

[ethebubbeth]

Originally posted by: akasha
Its amazing how everyone basically states that it could be the husband that hired the assassin. Who knows, it could have been the lover that did it. He could have wanted a way out of it, pretended he was the husband, hired the assassin, did the whore one last time, called the assassin to let him know she was on the way back home, blah blah blah, and who would eventually get blamed?the husband. Sorry to say, the assassin would verify that the ?husband? hired without even a face to face meeting?hmmmm:laugh:

Exactly. People tend to make the assumption that the husband hired the assassin. The assassin could have been hired by someone completely uninvolved in the story. The assassin could have made a mistake and been in the wrong location or mistakenly killed the wife (Yeah, that would make him a terrible assassin. The story never said he was a GOOD assassin ).

 

[DainBramaged]

Originally posted by: akasha
Its amazing how everyone basically states that it could be the husband that hired the assassin. Who knows, it could have been the lover that did it. He could have wanted a way out of it, pretended he was the husband, hired the assassin, did the whore one last time, called the assassin to let him know she was on the way back home, blah blah blah, and who would eventually get blamed?the husband. Sorry to say, the assassin would verify that the ?husband? hired without even a face to face meeting?hmmmm:laugh:

Personally, I'm going to go with the fact that the boatman knew what was going on the whole time, it pissed him off, and to avenge the unsuspecting husband, hired the assassin to kill her.

 

[Dessert Tears]

Coincidentally, I started re-reading the novel in which this story appears earlier this week.

Originally posted by: swtethan
why would you go take the boat in the first place if the bridge is quicker and FREE?

The wife uses the bridge for her first crossing in the novel's version.

Edit: From reviewing the novel, I'm surprised that everyone didn't pick the Lover.
Further Edit: The novel is The Pigman, by Paul Zindel.

 

[Azraele]

Originally posted by: Thraxen

Originally posted by: Azraele
I think she bears sole responsibility for being unfaithful in the first place. If she had been faithful, she would never have beeen out that night.

No way. You can't absolve the actual killer just because the woman shouldn't have been out cheating.

I'm not referring to should or shouldn't, I'm referring to the fact it never wouldn't happened if she hadn't gone out that night. Her choice to go out set the chain in motion. There would have been no opportunity to kill had she not gone out, the assassin would cease to be a part in that scenario.

But ok, take it at it's base, then I would lay blame on the killer for choosing to kill. The other players are minor contributions leading the the event of the murder instigated by the assassin.

 

[flexy]

>>>
how do your own experiences and biases affect your ranking?
>>>

thats exactly the POINT..this whole thing is more an *interesting* game in psychology. And/Or reflection of the society and how assumptions, prejudgement and BIAS affect a (preferrably *neutral*) judgement.

I mean, i can *at least* expect from a somewhat sane person that NO ACTION (NOT involving a crime like murder etc.) whatsoever *legitmates* the punishment w/ death. If this were the case (and sadly it looks like SOME people on ATOT very well tend towards this)...we would have the same societu like in, say, Iran, where women get stoned to death for adultery.

In what relationship is the punishment w/ death to the "crime". Or statements like "she deserved it"...etc..etc..

If you can't go down from your BIAS than you have no place/competence to even remotely judge in a crime, this BIAS can involve other races, genders, political view,own preferences of "what YOU think is moral" or whatever. Again, if this were the case the world would be an anarachy (dictatorship ?).

The "art" there would be seeing it as neutral as possible and at least TRYING to *not* let my BIAS influence a decision "who is guilty".

The husband can not be less guilty because he was CHEATED on. If so..again ---> anarchy
The wife is not MORE guilty because she took a risk.
The wife did NOT more "deserve" death because she commited adultery.
Whether the wife is a "whore", prostitute, sex-obsessed nymphomanian, republican, democrat, white, black, stupid, Someone killed her.
I can't weigh the act of the killing more or less according what background the victim is from or based on the victim's view on life
(EXCEPTION tho if the killing happened in self-defense, but that doesnt apply here)

Not that i am a lawyer or anything...but shouldn't it be clear that the only one responsible is of course the killer (assuming he was not hired) and that fpor the other persons, I GUESS those have the higher responsibility who KNEW that the assassin was on the bridge

From that point of view..the husband did NOT know about the killer, i assuming the boatsman didnt either (this is not clear)...actually the lover KNEW.

so..recap..

1) Assassin
2) Lover (he knew about the killer on the bridge)

For the other we need more data...eg. whether boatsman actively refused to "save" her, but i think he didnt know about the assasin.
Husband didnt have any intention to KILL (assuming assasin was not hired by him)..so i'd place him at bottom

w/ the wife it's not clear why she didnt stay at the lover's and instead took the known risk going back to the house...but i dont want to place her into a "responsibility" because she took a risk...rather "stupidity"...but then (again, not enough data) maybe she HAD to go there and there was no way around ?

 

[gotsmack]

NO, it does not say she admited that she was unfaithful or would be if left alone, it says that she knows that she will be.

It says that she first tries to cross the bridge to get home before going to the boat man and lover, but some tried to kill her so she retreated. She didn't get killed until the second attempt to cross.


While I understand your gang area arguement, it doesn't really apply since gang members don't kill everyone who comes into their area.

Originally posted by: flexy

Besides...she KNEW that she will be unfaithful, even admited it to the husband and explained...and he KNOWINGLY refused to take action, eg. take her with on the trip.

1) Assassin (who else) ???? Its a f***g no-brainer..he killed her. Period.

>>>
1. The Wife- She knew she would die if she tried to walk the bridge. It would be a totally different story if she didn't know. She gambled and lost, her own fault.
2. The Assassin- Did the actual killing, but the wife knew where the assassin would be.
>>>

who said she KNEW she would die ? She certainly made the run in attempt NOT to be killed, she took the chance but the attempt failed.
(makes me wonder why she just didnt stay at the lover's house btw


This logic (and other similiar opinions here)...is as like saying:
I KNOW that this or this area in town is really BAD, with gangs and shootings, so..there is a situation where i NEED (!) to go thru this area [since all other ways are blocked, i dont have a choice!)...i get shot.....and then its my own fault that i got shot ? And some other opinions even go like "well....the assasin just did his job" <-- blahblah.....other words: Well..if i got shot by a gang-member...its not REALLY their fault since...well...duh..thats what gang-members usually do


IMHO all other characters are interchangeable...maybe boatsman as last since he didnt know the situation (?).

 

[Praxis1452]

wife
husband
lover
boatman
assassin.

No it's not inverted the assassin is last.

 

[Tweak155]

Nice thread. I am really interested in responding but too tired to think after reading several responses.

 

[FilmCamera]

The only person responsible is the assassin.

 

[chambersc]

Assassin is the only one responsible in any way for her death.

 

[xanis]

1) Assassin
2) Wife
3) Boatman
4) Lover

 

[akshatp]

I just read this entire thread, and I am amazed that no one raised the possibility that the assassin and the husband are the same person?!?!??

Think about it. If he went to a far town overnight for a business trip, why would he return in the morning? He would logically return later on that evening, after concluding his business.
Unless the business trip was a cocaine deal taking place at 2 in the morning...

 

[montanafan]

I teach psychology sometimes and this is a good exercise to use in those classes as well. You can get into some really good discussions about why people made the choices of who is responsible after they've made their picks. Trying to defend some of them makes for really good back and forth between students. It's good for Civics classes as well.

It usually goes the same way it has here. You have several people who pick the wife and say it's a matter of personal responsibility, but then you ask them why they've thrown out the law, or do they really think death should be the punishment for adultry.

You ask about the moral responsibility of the lover and the boatman.

You ask about the victim of a crime analogy.

It usually comes down to those who insist it is her responsibility because it never would have happened if she hadn't cheated on her husband. Then you throw in the argument that no one said it was the husband and why did they assume that. And what if it was the lover who hired him.

In psychology class we usually conclude with the fact that people's experiences, biases, stereotypes, morals, values, etc. all come into play when they make their choices and how reason, logic, and the law can all go out the window in some people's minds in cases like these.

Oh, and the final conclusion for most after discussing it all out is that the wife is the least responsible, and really not responsible at all. That's because though people are responsible for their actions and should face the consequences, most finally conclude that the consequence for adultry should be divorce and not death.

 

[OVerLoRDI]

My English teacher had this exact same thing up a few weeks ago. Except she added a friend that refused to help also.

 

[Spacehead]

Assassin
Wife
Lover
Husband
Boatman


Assassin killed her so...
Wife had multiple chances to avoid the whole situation that got her killed

"She runs back up to her lovers house and explains the whole situation and then asks for the money. He laughs and says. You got yourself into this mess. You get yourself out."
Lover had at least one chance to save her



"The husband has to go to a far town overnight for a business trip. The wife begs and pleads to go with him, for she knows she will be unfaithful if left alone."

"So she goes down to the boatman...but she's unable to pay him, so he refuses to take her."
Husband & Boatman, the way i read it, had no knowledge of the situation so could be interchangable

 

[flexy]

Originally posted by: montanafan That's because though people are responsible for their actions and should face the consequences, most finally conclude that the consequence for adultry should be divorce and not death.

Uh..finally someone with commom sense here

Ironically, looking at your userinfo, a female (?)

[wipes tear off eyes]

But seriously..i dont even get that far and see a relationship between the "crime" and the "adultery" .

Deep down (for the "case") it doesnt matter whether she left the house to go to the store, or walked her dog...........or went to her lover cheating on her husband.

The interesting thing is (as you say, and that's why psycholgy is so interesting) how opinions/morals affect judgement.

 

[chambersc]

How is anyone other than the assasin responsible for the death?

 

[gotsmack]

Originally posted by: chambersc
How is anyone other than the assasin responsible for the death?

when you gamble at a casino and lose a lot of money who is at fault? you for gambling or the casino for taking your money?

what if the pit boss openly declares that for the next hour no one is going to win any money and you play anyway.

 

[Andyb23]

Originally posted by: Krazy4Real

Originally posted by: amdhunter

Originally posted by: Vegitto
Wife
Wife
Wife
Wife
Wife

It's her own damn fault for cheating on her husband.

:thumbsup:

QFT

Yep and I guess I'm one of those "socialists"

LOL