Unmanned planes - war cheaper, safer, easier

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
There are some of us who view the perpetually ongoing increase in the power of governments to oppress publics - from military tactics to technology to psychological practices - as ever further shifting the bar higher on the public's inability to ever meaningfully oppose the government when it is at odds with the public. I've long said the days of 2nd-amendment fans having the revolution are over forever.

60 Minutes did a piece tonight on the growth and effectiveness of unmanned aircraft.

Link

Far up in the sky with an excellent permanent view of whatever they want on the ground, undetected from the ground, and able to destroy in seconds.

Watch the piece and then imagine the people in the crosshairs are your 2nd amendment 'patriots' resisting.

There has always been injustice in wars, unjust war; one restraint on unjst war has been the cost.

The lower the cost of war becomes, the easier it is for the side waging it to get public support for the war.

Imagine these in the hands of Kim Jong Il. The hands of Putin against Chechnya. The hands of the Chinese using them in Tibet and elsewhere. The hands of India or Pakistan. The hands of Iran - or of Israel using them against the Palestinians and Lebanon. Imagine the House of Saud possessing these.

Imagine them in the hands of a US government against its own people.

I know there's no stopping the advance - the benefits are too compelling despite the risks. It's a bit like when those who watched aviation develop recognized that when you add some bombs and guns to the planes, war would be quite a different thing - and the Blkitzkrieg and firebombing followed, before Napalm and Agent Orange.

When nuclear weapons were created, the scientists said that our science was advancing faster than our ability to handle the political issues needed. Luckily, the risks they saw to day have only resulted in coming extremely close to a nuclear exchange, rather than actually having one. But the threat of loose nukes continues to prove their point.

I'm not sure I want any government continuing to increase its powers in this manner, further and further, making its power cheaper, easier, stronger.

How secure would our founding fathers have felt the democracy was with these changes, as they imagined George III in possession of them?

The Boston Tea Party would have been the beginning and end of revolt, resembling Tiannemen square rather than the beginning of revolution.

The technology we cheer today as effective against legitimate enemies is the technology potentially if not likely used for illegitimate repression tomorrow.

On milestones of the government's powers against its people increasing, this may be a large one, following electronic surveillance.

But it'll be cheered and funded and deployed, somewhere, more and more.

One of the few politically costly prices of war remaining are the casualties - which can now be reduced further, making war cheaper - and more likely.

If you think of the world under tyranny, the unmanned aircraft fit well into the image. Sadly, I don't have much to recommend here. Just commentary.

I'd shift resources to pursuing peace in the world and having less need for such weapons. But we know the likelihood of that.

Maybe these will become useful law enforcement tools - tracking fugitives and criminal organizations, while not launching missiles, just filming. Maybe they won't get into the hands of repressive regimes, and will be used with restraing in the US. Maybe they'll not be exploited as pretty much every other technology has.

I watch the men who use these and kill the enemy - and their frame of justice is that they hit the actual enemy combatants rather than civilians - about which there is controversy as to how well they're doing. But what I don't see is these men having any questions about the justice of the wars themselves. And that's dangerous, IMO. It's all too easy to get people to buy into the justice of a war and to wage it strongly committed. The Americans who invaded Mexico under the pretenses of President Polk - a war Lincoln led the opposition to and Grant said was 'the most unjust ever waged' - had no lack of men to wage it over any issue of justice. And there will be men to use these unmanned planes for any purpose the powers that be choose. All seeming so uncontroversial now, merely a 'more effective weapon' in wars not being questioned - any more than the US opposition to the elected, left-wing government in Afghanistan before the Soviet invasion - opposition that led to the creation of the enemy we fight in the region today - was controversial for its injustice.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
thats right. we should just stop building/designing new weapons. that will make everything ok!
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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Well don't worry, it will all be run by the same people many trust to provide health care. Everything will be fine.
 

Mani

Diamond Member
Aug 9, 2001
4,808
1
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Originally posted by: waggy
thats right. we should just stop building/designing new weapons. that will make everything ok!

That is one hell of a straw man.
 

herm0016

Diamond Member
Feb 26, 2005
8,516
1,128
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this... instead of " saving lives by using un-maned aircraft in hostile missions, and furthering science by using them to do research"
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
To some extent, one can use these drones against a primitive and defenseless population, but a manned or unmanned set of aircraft could shoot down such drones with almost total impunity. Or an adaptive enemy could learn to set up decoy target that will cause the drones to waste their bomb and missile loads,
and then with no fox guarding the hen house, there is a window of opportunity while the drone flies home to rearm. Or the enemy may learn to jam the frequencies used to communicate with the remote control base, and simply instruct the drone to crash into the ground. As a new wonder weapon of war, counter tactic are not yet developed, but I fully expect they will be.
 

cubeless

Diamond Member
Sep 17, 2001
4,295
1
81
Originally posted by: Lemon law
To some extent, one can use these drones against a primitive and defenseless population, but a manned or unmanned set of aircraft could shoot down such drones with almost total impunity. Or an adaptive enemy could learn to set up decoy target that will cause the drones to waste their bomb and missile loads,
and then with no fox guarding the hen house, there is a window of opportunity while the drone flies home to rearm. Or the enemy may learn to jam the frequencies used to communicate with the remote control base, and simply instruct the drone to crash into the ground. As a new wonder weapon of war, counter tactic are not yet developed, but I fully expect they will be.

just got through watching the new terminator movie, eh?

 

tvarad

Golden Member
Jun 25, 2001
1,130
0
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Originally posted by: Lemon law
To some extent, one can use these drones against a primitive and defenseless population, but a manned or unmanned set of aircraft could shoot down such drones with almost total impunity. Or an adaptive enemy could learn to set up decoy target that will cause the drones to waste their bomb and missile loads,
and then with no fox guarding the hen house, there is a window of opportunity while the drone flies home to rearm. Or the enemy may learn to jam the frequencies used to communicate with the remote control base, and simply instruct the drone to crash into the ground. As a new wonder weapon of war, counter tactic are not yet developed, but I fully expect they will be.

Don't worry Lemon Law, by the time that happens, there will be a new weapon that will track what your thinking and blew you to smithereens ;).
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
327
126
Originally posted by: cubeless
Originally posted by: Lemon law
To some extent, one can use these drones against a primitive and defenseless population, but a manned or unmanned set of aircraft could shoot down such drones with almost total impunity. Or an adaptive enemy could learn to set up decoy target that will cause the drones to waste their bomb and missile loads,
and then with no fox guarding the hen house, there is a window of opportunity while the drone flies home to rearm. Or the enemy may learn to jam the frequencies used to communicate with the remote control base, and simply instruct the drone to crash into the ground. As a new wonder weapon of war, counter tactic are not yet developed, but I fully expect they will be.

just got through watching the new terminator movie, eh?

That's how LL learns his military tactics and strategy. :)
 

MotF Bane

No Lifer
Dec 22, 2006
60,801
10
0
Originally posted by: Lemon law
To some extent, one can use these drones against a primitive and defenseless population, but a manned or unmanned set of aircraft could shoot down such drones with almost total impunity. Or an adaptive enemy could learn to set up decoy target that will cause the drones to waste their bomb and missile loads,
and then with no fox guarding the hen house, there is a window of opportunity while the drone flies home to rearm. Or the enemy may learn to jam the frequencies used to communicate with the remote control base, and simply instruct the drone to crash into the ground. As a new wonder weapon of war, counter tactic are not yet developed, but I fully expect they will be.

Uhhh....
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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Originally posted by: MotF Bane
Originally posted by: Lemon law
To some extent, one can use these drones against a primitive and defenseless population, but a manned or unmanned set of aircraft could shoot down such drones with almost total impunity. Or an adaptive enemy could learn to set up decoy target that will cause the drones to waste their bomb and missile loads,
and then with no fox guarding the hen house, there is a window of opportunity while the drone flies home to rearm. Or the enemy may learn to jam the frequencies used to communicate with the remote control base, and simply instruct the drone to crash into the ground. As a new wonder weapon of war, counter tactic are not yet developed, but I fully expect they will be.

Uhhh....

Pretty much. Mostly.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,640
9,941
136
Originally posted by: Craig234
Topic Summary: Future tool of totalitarians?

Expanded tax revenue to support expanded government is ultimately the foundation of totalitarians. Something you support wholeheartedly while I stand in opposition. Increased surveillance and automated systems are a symptom of a much larger ideological disease.
 

Zedtom

Platinum Member
Nov 23, 2001
2,146
0
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The technology that allows drones will surely lead to even more sophisticated devices that utilize unmanned robotics. The logical progression beyond that would be skipping the middleman and just fighting it out in cyberspace. Oh... Gene Roddenberry already thought about that years ago:

Spock concludes that the war is waged by computer and Anan 7 explains that they have determined a way to conduct a ?peaceful? war to avoid the devastation to the planets? infrastructure.

Star Trek epidode "A Taste of Aramageddon" synopsis
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
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I think the unmanned drone planes are great, especially when they kill the Taliban and Al Queda.

Now, did my failing hear me, or does each plane only cost $11 million? If it's just $11 million per plane, then we can buy them like popcorn.
 

JTsyo

Lifer
Nov 18, 2007
12,031
1,131
126
To prevent this, we must allow all Americans to fly UAVs. This is clearly protected by the 2nd amendment. The spirit of the amendment is to arm with the people in such a way that they can overthrow the government.
 

Wheezer

Diamond Member
Nov 2, 1999
6,731
1
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Originally posted by: darom
I like this implementation better:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-tank_dog

Among the plan's failings was the Soviet use of their own diesel tanks to train the dogs rather than German tanks, which had petrol engines[1]. On the battlefield this resulted in the dogs tending to seek food under and thus destroying the Russian tanks with which they were familiar instead of the strange German tanks.

ooops....no plan is perfect.
 

Alienwho

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2001
6,766
0
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Unmanned vehicles are a scenario where everybody wins. The Taliban shoots one down, they feel great about destroying a US weapon. The US population feels good that it was only a vehicle that was destroyed instead of an actual person. The company that makes the vehicle is happy because they get paid to make another one to replace it.

Unmanned vehicles will heal this world and all the problems in it.