Universal healthcare in Europe and Canada

[kyrax12]

From what I understand the healthcare system in most of Europe and Canada are in a single pay system where the government basically pay for everyone's insurance premium and in return the people have to pay higher in their income tax.

It seems to benefit a lot of people because having treatment and doctor's check up won't put them in crippling debt but what I want to know are the pros and cons. I am doing a presentation on Universal Healthcare and I need to find out more.

From what I have gathered on the pros and cons.

1. Everyone have their healthcare paid more- Which means that surgeries and MRIs won't put people into crippling debt

2. Everyone have access to Health insurance paid for by the government

Cons

1. Rations- To control the expense of this healthcare program, the government needs to institute waiting lists for doctor's appointment.

2. Expense- A single payer Universal health is a multi-trillion dollar program and the U.S can't afford it.

 

[Phokus]

In response to your cons:



1) We ration as well. Millions of people don't (or didn't, don't know which parts of Obamacare has kicked in yet) don't have access to health insurance. An estimated 44,000 die a year because of a lack of health insurance.

2) We pay twice as much in healthcare costs per capita as other countries with universal healthcare do, which is fucking ridiculous when we don't even cover everyone.

 

[alent1234]

the reason the US pays more is because we get more healthcare in the US. other countries if your kid is born too early, they let him/her die. same with old people

 

[Phokus]

the reason the US pays more is because we get more healthcare in the US. other countries if your kid is born too early, they let him/her die. same with old people

Infant mortality rates are much higher in the US than other countries:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate

We're worse than Croatia and Cuba

 

[Kntx]

Cons

1. Rations- To control the expense of this healthcare program, the government needs to institute waiting lists for doctor's appointment.

2. Expense- A single payer Universal health program is a multi-trillion dollar and the U.S can't afford it.

You've got the jist of it... but it would be more accurate to say

1. Rations -
To control the expense of this healthcare program, the government needs to institute waiting lists for medically unnecessary elective procedure

2. Expense- A single payer Universal health program is a multi-trillion dollar that the U.S cannot fund without large changes to the tax structure and spending priorities

 

[Chaotic42]

Infant mortality rates are much higher in the US than other countries:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate

We're worse than Croatia and Cuba

Do all of these countries report infant mortality rate the same way? The CDC says that the US reports all live births, but other countries have different definitions: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db23.htm

Cuba and Croatia aren't on that page.

 

[mnewsham]

the reason the US pays more is because we get more healthcare in the US. other countries if your kid is born too early, they let him/her die. same with old people

Maybe in some middle african village, but the rest of the developed world is on par with or better than the US.

 

[Phokus]

Do all of these countries report infant mortality rate the same way? The CDC says that the US reports all live births, but other countries have different definitions: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db23.htm

Cuba and Croatia aren't on that page.

Seems that among the countries that report infant mortality the same way, the US fairs just as poorly.

 

[Fingolfin269]

This one for me always comes down to wondering just how much is it going to cost me. I don't mind paying a little more if it does help everyone else out, and my quality of health care doesn't suffer, but getting that price tag from someone is the kicker.

So to me that really ties into #2. I'm not sure if I can afford to carry my burden under UHC or not.

 

[vi edit]

RE: infant mortality rate

You don't truely understand this until you've spent any time in any time in a neonatal ICU.

Simply put, there are thousands of babies born every year that in most other countries would have been dead by 25 weeks of gestational age or sooner and never would have been born in the first place.

There are many countries that do not count low birth rate babies as being "born" like they do in the US.

http://pjmedia.com/blog/the-doctor-is-in-infant-mortality-comparisons-a-statistical-miscarriage/

[edit] I didn't mean to link to a Right Winger cess pool site, but it doesn't change the information in that article who's an MD who happens to be affiliated with the State of California for what that is worth...

 

[Leymenaide]

In response to your cons:



1) We ration as well. Millions of people don't (or didn't, don't know which parts of Obamacare has kicked in yet) don't have access to health insurance. An estimated 44,000 die a year because of a lack of health insurance.

2) We pay twice as much in healthcare costs per capita as other countries with universal healthcare do, which is fucking ridiculous when we don't even cover everyone.

I own a biz in Canada and Europe. The United States is about nothing but greed. Better care and lower cost anywhere else.

 

[Juddog]

This thread makes me wish I could move to Canada, but Canada won't even take me unless I have a job offer up there to start off with.

 

[kyrax12]

Is it true that in Canada it is illegal to pay out of pocket to receive better care?

 

[Juddog]

I own a biz in Canada and Europe. The United States is about nothing but greed. Better care and lower cost anywhere else.

^^ This - it's too bad our politicians in the US are so blatantly bought out if the dollar figure is high enough. Gotta love worse coverage, paying more, for treatment that isn't as good (unless you're rich of course).

The healthcare system in the US is fooked.

 

[soulcougher73]

I'd like to see something maybe more in line with Switzerland..or maybe it was Germany. Where they have single payer system but if you have the money and want to go above and beyond you can pay for private health care from doctors who participate. I guess for those particular people it may suck since you are paying twice, but its a choice they have if they want to afford paying for private healthcare. I think the US needs to becomre more united where people dont mind spreading the cost of single payer around to help out those less fortunate. Right now most people are too greedy to want to fathom their tax money going to pay for someone elses healthcare.

 

[zinfamous]

the reason the US pays more is because we get more healthcare in the US. other countries if your kid is born too early, they let him/her die. same with old people

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:hmm:

wait--You are trolling, aren't you? ...aren't you?


:hmm:

 

[Scouzer]

Is it true that in Canada it is illegal to pay out of pocket to receive better care?

This is generally true. To be stated more accurately, it is illegal to a medical institution to charge for better/timely care.

Canada is the only country in the world that I'm aware of that has no private medicine. Any other country with social medicine has private care available for the rich, but that's illegal in Canada. Like anything, this has pros and cons.

It blows my mind that many Americans still believe they have some sort of health care system of envy. It is ridiculously shitty for a huge percentage of the working class and really good for the 1%. How is that a good thing?

 

[CanOWorms]

RE: infant mortality rate

You don't truely understand this until you've spent any time in any time in a neonatal ICU.

Simply put, there are thousands of babies born every year that in most other countries would have been dead by 25 weeks of gestational age or sooner and never would have been born in the first place.

There are many countries that do not count low birth rate babies as being "born" like they do in the US.

http://pjmedia.com/blog/the-doctor-is-in-infant-mortality-comparisons-a-statistical-miscarriage/

[edit] I didn't mean to link to a Right Winger cess pool site, but it doesn't change the information in that article who's an MD who happens to be affiliated with the State of California for what that is worth...

I recall a study from a few years back stating that differences in reporting is not the entire reason, but also US demographics: the US has more mothers (such as teenage mothers) with premature births and other complications.

 

[ichy]

I'd like to see something maybe more in line with Switzerland..or maybe it was Germany. Where they have single payer system but if you have the money and want to go above and beyond you can pay for private health care from doctors who participate.

Sounds like Germany. The Swiss system is not single payer, in fact in many ways it's similar to Obamacare (insurance provided by private companies, everyone has to buy insurance and insurance companies have to accept everyone.)

 

[mikeymikec]

Certainly Britain's and Germany's healthcare systems are completely different, so I think OP's impression of "most of Europe's healthcare system" is probably wrong. From what I understand of France's healthcare system is that they quite heavily tax the people to provide it. How British people get taxed to provide the NHS is more complicated (National Insurance contributions are mandatory for anyone earning over a certain (low) sum, but then I think a lot of the NHS's budget is derived from taxpayer money in general).

British people basically get everything necessary under the National Health Service, as well as some grey areas of "necessary", such as free contraceptives or some cosmetic surgery (based on definitions of necessary that I'm not intimately aware of).

German people (from what I understand, my wife is German) have medical insurance (don't know if it is mandatory, but unemployed people claiming benefits get state-provided medical insurance) from private (ie. a normal company) insurance providers.

 

[silverpig]

This is generally true. To be stated more accurately, it is illegal to a medical institution to charge for better/timely care.

Canada is the only country in the world that I'm aware of that has no private medicine. Any other country with social medicine has private care available for the rich, but that's illegal in Canada. Like anything, this has pros and cons.

It blows my mind that many Americans still believe they have some sort of health care system of envy. It is ridiculously shitty for a huge percentage of the working class and really good for the 1%. How is that a good thing?

Well, we kind of do have a private healthcare system... it's called the US. There are rich people here who get their sprained knee MRI in 3 days by driving down to Seattle as opposed to waiting 4 weeks up here.

OP: If you need emergency care or just want an appointment to see a doctor, you don't wait at all in Canada.

 

[Scouzer]

Well, we kind of do have a private healthcare system... it's called the US. There are rich people here who get their sprained knee MRI in 3 days by driving down to Seattle as opposed to waiting 4 weeks up here.

OP: If you need emergency care or just want an appointment to see a doctor, you don't wait at all in Canada.

I was thinking of the US as essentially being the Canadian private option when I posted. It allows us to skip having a private option of our own.

I don't know about other provinces, but an MRI in 4 weeks in Alberta just isn't going to happen. It's 3-6 months unless it's something that requires immediate attention.

As for seeing a doctor in the ER... emergency room wait times are typically on the order of 1-6 hours for low or medium priority things. If you are high priority you are thrown straight to the front of course.

Your wait time to see a general physician is mostly related to your choice of a family doctor. Some doctors choose to take on stupid amounts of patients which results in a 1 or 2 week wait for an appointment. My doctor does not do this and as a result it's easy to see him in a day or two.

 

[vi edit]

I recall a study from a few years back stating that differences in reporting is not the entire reason, but also US demographics: the US has more mothers (such as teenage mothers) with premature births and other complications.

That's the other part about being in a NICU you realize. Having a job, all your teeth, and a high school diploma is optional. A LOT of preterm babies are from women that have absolutely shitty health. And that's from a lifestyle choice...not a lack care access one. Drugs, alcohol, obesity, ect.

On the opposite end of that pendulum are people with fertility issues that shouldn't even be able to conceive that have their bodies jacked up full of drugs and hormones and have a uterus made of tissue paper going into labor at 25 weeks. I'm guessing our use of fertility drugs are much higher than other countries also. Sucks to say, but these women's bodies weren't meant to carry babies. But they are trying to do it anyway.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

1) Unnecessary tests & procedures. There are 9 lists on that page, each in a different PDF. Some of them are mostly common sense for medical professionals; but not necessarily for the public, because their value has been overstated or inflated for various reasons. Some of the items are repeated within and between lists; that's because these are common conditions, either as a primary diagnosis or as an item of exclusion in a differential.
2) Emphasis on doctor-centered care rather than utilizing nurse practitioners and pharmacists as well
3) Emphasis on secondary care rather than primary care.
4) Emphasis on user-pays rather than single-payer healthcare.

the reason the US pays more is because we get more healthcare in the US. other countries if your kid is born too early, they let him/her die. same with old people

I thought this kind of bullshit only got touted around in P&N.

 

[RedString]

We would be able to afford something if we didn't have military bases in 120+ countries around the world and had a ridiculously disproportionate military budget.

As for seeing a doctor in the ER... emergency room wait times are typically on the order of 1-6 hours for low or medium priority things. If you are high priority you are thrown straight to the front of course.

Your wait time to see a general physician is mostly related to your choice of a family doctor. Some doctors choose to take on stupid amounts of patients which results in a 1 or 2 week wait for an appointment. My doctor does not do this and as a result it's easy to see him in a day or two.

I don't think that's because of the healthcare.. I typically end up waiting just as long when going to ER, or with someone who is at ER (unless it's bad). (Texas)