United States ranks next to Pakistan in upward mobility

[Texashiker]

Interesting article about how likely, or unlikely you are to be living in the same social class as your parents,

http://money.cnn.com/2013/12/09/news/economy/america-economic-mobility/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

A lot of it boils down to education.

The rich can afford to pay for their childrens education, while poor families are limited by how much money they can borrow, or pay as they go. The balancing factor seems to be nations that tax the rich to pay for higher education of poor families.

My opinion, student loan debt is strangling upward mobility. Instead of being able to buy a home, start a family, and start saving money, young adults spend the first decade paying off college debt.

 

[brycejones]

Any concern about upward mobility is the sign of a commie sympathizer. 😉

 

[PliotronX]

Student loan debt is worth it, the schooling creates connections and direction to where you are destined to be. In some cases it makes you a better student because you are risking debt to learn rather than mommy and daddy handing it to you. Rich kids can be some of the dumbest wastes of organic material...

 

[nehalem256]

Interesting article about how likely, or unlikely you are to be living in the same social class as your parents,

http://money.cnn.com/2013/12/09/news/economy/america-economic-mobility/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

A lot of it boils down to education.

The rich can afford to pay for their childrens education, while poor families are limited by how much money they can borrow, or pay as they go. The balancing factor seems to be nations that tax the rich to pay for higher education of poor families.

My opinion, student loan debt is strangling upward mobility. Instead of being able to buy a home, start a family, and start saving money, young adults spend the first decade paying off college debt.

Except that most of the really poor are not poor due to lack of higher education. Its more a failure to get a primary education, having children out of wedlock, drug use, etc.

 

[LegendKiller]

Student loan debt is worth it, the schooling creates connections and direction to where you are destined to be. In some cases it makes you a better student because you are risking debt to learn rather than mommy and daddy handing it to you. Rich kids can be some of the dumbest wastes of organic material...

The 3 year cohort default rate for student loans is ~16-18%. The delinquency rate is ~23-25%. Both of these numbers are artificially low since student loans are non-dischargable. I would estimate the number of students that would default if they could would be ~30-40%.

The number of young adults living in their parents house is much higher than it was 10-15 years ago. The unemployment rate for retirement age workers are declining due to monetary burdens (kids living at home, co-signed loans).

Student loan debt *can* be worth it, depending on what it is used for. However, a huge portion of it is *not* worth it.

 

[Texashiker]

Any concern about upward mobility is the sign of a commie sympathizer. 😉

When it comes to higher education I am about as commie / liberal (same thing) as they get.

My personal feelings on the issue, tax the rich and all of the fortune 500 companies until higher education is free to all.

 

[Exterous]

The 3 year cohort default rate for student loans is ~16-18%. The delinquency rate is ~23-25%. Both of these numbers are artificially low since student loans are non-dischargable.

They also include loan holders who are currently in deferment in the 'on time payment' group

 

[Atomic Playboy]

The rich have absolutely no incentive to increase the upwards mobility of people below them; why sell out the best advantage your offspring will enjoy in the name of fairness for people you don't even know? As far as the rich are concerned, once you've reached the rarefied air of a 1%er, you want upwards mobility to be effectively zero to preserve your position.

 

[unokitty]

Pew Center has also done some work about "who is falling out of the middle class". Thought it might relate to the original posting since it shows that education is a factor. But it is only one of several factors.

Back to the article referenced in the OP Jason Long, an economist at Wheaton College said:

"It's clear that Americans still believe that America has exceptional mobility, and that's not true," said Long. He calling it "vexing" that "lots of people could be systematically mistaken about verifiable, factual information."

"Vexing that lots of people could be systematically mistaken about verifiable factual information?"

Clearly, he has never participated here....

Uno

 

[Atomic Playboy]

"Vexing that lots of people could be systematically mistaken about verifiable factual information?"

Based on my observations, 65% of Americans won't actually understand that sentence.

 

[nehalem256]

Pew Center has also done some work about "who is falling out of the middle class". Thought it might relate to the original posting since it shows that education is a factor. But it is only one of several factors.

Back to the article referenced in the OP Jason Long, an economist at Wheaton College said:


"Vexing that lots of people could be systematically mistaken about verifiable factual information?"

Clearly, he has never participated here....

Uno

So basically.

Dropping out of HS... bad
not getting married(especially if a woman)... bad
Getting divorced(especially if a woman)... bad
using drugs... bad

So the fact that people who make poor life choices end up in poverty tell us that there is a problem with economic mobility why?

 

[Slew Foot]

Women using heroin go far in life? Are these people porn stars?

 

[Daverino]

The only solution is to deny poor people food, health care and their unemployment benefits

That'll teach 'em for being poor.

 

[HumblePie]

Women using heroin go far in life? Are these people porn stars?

When you are already at the bottom.... how do you drop lower?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Women using heroin go far in life? Are these people porn stars?

Yeah that was weird. Maybe they were so screwed by using it that they were more motivated?

 

[nehalem256]

Yeah that was weird. Maybe they were so screwed by using it that they were more motivated?

Yeah, that is truly weird. The only thing I can think of is that number of women using heroin is small, and for some reason that small population has something else going for them.

Also interesting that being a black woman makes you less likely to be in poverty. Whereas a black man is more likely to be in poverty.

 

[HumblePie]

Yeah, that is truly weird. The only thing I can think of is that number of women using heroin is small, and for some reason that small population has something else going for them.

Also interesting that being a black woman makes you less likely to be in poverty. Whereas a black man is more likely to be in poverty.

Oprah skewing the results?

 

[Franz316]

So basically.

Dropping out of HS... bad
not getting married(especially if a woman)... bad
Getting divorced(especially if a woman)... bad
using drugs... bad

So the fact that people who make poor life choices end up in poverty tell us that there is a problem with economic mobility why?

Is it the poverty that leads to bad decision making or is it bad decision making that leads to poverty? Probably a little of both, but if I had to choose, it would be the first. Solely blaming the person is an overly simplified viewpoint, and lacks any deeper level of thought.

Being in poverty changes the way a person thinks and priorities change accordingly. Basically, poverty begets poverty. It's a feedback loop that is very difficult to get out of. Poor people tend to get the worst educations, have nonexistent family structures, be extremely stressed, have no positive reinforcement and are the most unhealthy. That's a recipe for bad decision making, and it is very hard for me to blame a person in that situation since I've never been in it.

There have been many studies on how poverty affects the brain and all come to the same conclusion - being poor is detrimental to a person's development.

 

[Texashiker]

"Vexing that lots of people could be systematically mistaken about verifiable factual information?"

If you take a child and tell that child the same thing over and over and over, they take it as fact.

The vast majority of people have been lied to their entire lives. The lie is if you work hard, that hard work will be recognized and rewarded.

Nobody is going to reward you for your hard work. If you do not like working for chump change hit the door.

 

[HumblePie]

If you take a child and tell that child the same thing over and over and over, they take it as fact.

The vast majority of people have been lied to their entire lives. The lie is if you work hard, that hard work will be recognized and rewarded.

Nobody is going to reward you for your hard work. If you do not like working for chump change hit the door.

To play devil's advocate. It's more the fact that they aren't told the entire equation.

Hard work is part of the equation to success. The other parts are:

Winning personality
Good looks
Ambition
Good connections (which can be achieved if one does not start with these through the other 3)

Hard work is the smallest factor of getting anywhere, but without it you go no where up.

 

[BoberFett]

Women using heroin go far in life? Are these people porn stars?

LOL, I'm not the only one who wondered about that...

 

[nehalem256]

Is it the poverty that leads to bad decision making or is it bad decision making that leads to poverty? Probably a little of both, but if I had to choose, it would be the first. Solely blaming the person is an overly simplified viewpoint, and lacks any deeper level of thought.

I would suggest re-reading the chart title posted in this thread. It is about people falling out of the middle class.

Being in poverty changes the way a person thinks and priorities change accordingly. Basically, poverty begets poverty. It's a feedback loop that is very difficult to get out of. Poor people tend to get the worst educations, have nonexistent family structures, be extremely stressed, have no positive reinforcement and are the most unhealthy. That's a recipe for bad decision making, and it is very hard for me to blame a person in that situation since I've never been in it.

There have been many studies on how poverty affects the brain and all come to the same conclusion - being poor is detrimental to a person's development.

Therein lies the flaw in your argument. America clearly had more poverty in the 1940s yet had more intact families. The difference is values not poverty.

In the 1940s having a child out of wedlock basically wasn't a choice then. So in a way you may have a point. Liberal value lead to a cycle of poverty.

 

[nehalem256]

To play devil's advocate. It's more the fact that they aren't told the entire equation.

Hard work is part of the equation to success. The other parts are:

Winning personality
Good looks
Ambition
Good connections (which can be achieved if one does not start with these through the other 3)

Hard work is the smallest factor of getting anywhere, but without it you go no where up.

The most important is making good choices. If you drop out of high school, have kids with multiple baby daddies, all the hard work in the world isn't going to get you very far.

 

[HumblePie]

The most important is making good choices. If you drop out of high school, have kids with multiple baby daddies, all the hard work in the world isn't going to get you very far.

Naw, not even those really matter.

I've seen people come back from those bad decisions.

Again, the formula for success if really, really simple. (assuming upward mobility is trying to be obtained and we aren't talking of those already starting at the top).

Hard work, good personality, good looks, ambitious drive, and good networking.

Some of those are in balance to others. Some you really can't get like good looks, but those with good looks have an easier chance to succeed. Same with those that make the right connections.

Other secondary factors do also play a role. Education is a good example. Education though is a byproduct of two of the main factors. Hard work and ambition. Won't get the education part without those two. Which makes it a corollary factor and not a main factor.

To rank the order of the 4 main points is a bit hard. Mainly because there have been people that have succeeded quite well with only 2 out of the 4 main ingredients in the formula. However, doing that is much harder and more dependant upon pure luck. Such as those born with extraordinary good looks and little ambition. Seen those people start at the bottom and still succeed even if they were dragged into it through someone else through good networking.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

I stated this before and I'll state it again, income inequality is nothing more than a surface issue. Income inequality is symptom of a lack of income mobility in society. Those who strictly focus on income inequality are missing forest for the trees because it does not really matter how much more income you earn relative to someone else (say Bill Gates) but how easy it is for you personally to move up the ladder of success in society to a higher income bracket without major artificial impediments being placed in front of you that slow you down or block your path. I understand however, that the reasons why "income inequality" is popular with many on the left is that is allows intensely focus people's attention on class based division politically to their benefit.