United passenger forcibly removed from plane for not giving up seat

[Exterous]

Ah I think we're finding the common ground here.

'Compliant Citizen Class'

Evidence does point to the command being lawful and I don't think there is much question that the police will use force if you refuse a lawful command. That statement should not be viewed as support for the level of force used

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Evidence does point to the command being lawful and I don't think there is much question that the police will use force if you refuse a lawful command. That statement should not be viewed as support for the level of force used

Historically speaking, authoritative forces find ANY level of force applicable for a non-compliant citizen. By accepting that use of force is acceptable for refusing a given command, you are de facto accepting any use of force as acceptable, because that power creeps over time.

 

[manly]

Generally asking what would happen if the person was white is tacitly playing the race card in a colloquial manner.

Evidence does point to the command being lawful and I don't think there is much question that the police will use force if you refuse a lawful command. That statement should not be viewed as support for the level of force used

Whatever you say dude, I guess in your world view corporate policy is policy. If it was your father or grandfather in the same situation and he wasn't budging, he'd deserve to be physically removed as well.

 

[ponyo]

First hand account:






http://miami.cbslocal.com/2017/04/1...ghts-after-united-forcefully-bumps-passenger/

Better and different first hand account of what happened:

"Another passenger, Joya Cummings, said that she and her son were sitting in the row directly behind Dao, and that originally, the doctor and his wife volunteered to take an $800 voucher for willingly giving up their seats.

But once they realized there were no other flights that night, the couple declined, Cummings said. When the airline failed to find volunteers, the crew said they would choose people randomly — and that's when Dao was selected.

Throughout the encounter, Cummings said, Dao was upset but not belligerent or violent. Once officers were called on board, she added, Dao was "calm and soft-spoken" and didn't act violently with officers.

"Other than not getting out of the seat, he didn't fight back. He just stood his ground," Cummings said."

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...gizes-dragging-kentucky-doctor-flight-n745161

This gives us a better picture of what happened. And no one mentioned the Daos had originally volunteered for $800 before finding out there wasn't another flight. And this proves United didn't pick someone random. There's no way the Daos got randomly picked by the computer the second time after they had volunteered the first time. So the random computer selection process crap is complete lie by United corporate.

 

[ponyo]

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/white-house-calls-united-video-troubling-dems-ask-probe-n745256

And we now know why that United asshole CEO Munoz issued the second apology today. He was feeling the heat from multiple Senators and lawmakers including the top Senators from the Senate Commerce Committee and the Aviation Subcommittee. This kind of conduct starts at the top. If Munoz isn't fired and re-accommodated for this, United will never change.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/white-house-calls-united-video-troubling-dems-ask-probe-n745256

And we now know why that United asshole CEO Munoz issued the second apology today. He was feeling the heat from multiple Senators and lawmakers including the top Senators from the Senate Commerce Committee and the Aviation Subcommittee. This kind of conduct starts at the top. If Munoz isn't fired and re-accommodated for this, United will never change.

Rofl, yep, only a problem if you get called out on it, only illegal if you get caught.

Par for the course.

EDIT: Oh, and I still don't like that this is being reported in many places as an 'overbooked' flight, as it was here.

 

[tynopik]

And this proves

you keep using that word

i do not think it means what you think it means

 

[ponyo]

you keep using that word

i do not think it means what you think it means

You believe the Daos got randomly picked?

 

[tynopik]

You believe the Daos got randomly picked?

i think you don't have any proof one way or another

 

[elitejp]

First hand account:[/QUOTE
And thats exactly how i see it as going down.
Ive dealt with people who just wont cooperate and when they just start squirming (their bodies )and moving you just dont know what they will do next. Which makes it very hard to control and protect them from getting injured. He obviously struggled against the security because you dont get injured when you cooperate like the other three passengers did.
Now i dont know why everyone is calling the ceo an asshole. He wasnt there and wasnt in control. And i dont even want to blame the security. I dont think a single security person expected this outcome. Its unfortunate that he got hurt but when it comes to the point of security needing to be called you would expect most people to comply. Obviously this guy thought differently and a bad situation became worse.
The sad thing is that he will probably get rewarded for not being complient. So in the future security will only have the authority to politely ask you to do something and you can say no and they will just have to walk away

 

[Exterous]

Whatever you say dude, I guess in your world view corporate policy is policy.

I mean go right ahead and make up whatever you want I guess because I never said anything like that.

Better and different first hand account of what happened:


http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...gizes-dragging-kentucky-doctor-flight-n745161

Flyertalk has several other reports that mention yelling from the Dr. from other passengers although I don't have it in me to sift through the 240+ page thread. Apparently he also ran back onto the plane and had to be removed a second time:

"He continued to resist,” United wrote in its summary, “running back onto the aircraft in defiance of both our crew and security officials.”

And no one mentioned the Daos had originally volunteered for $800 before finding out there wasn't another flight. And this proves United didn't pick someone random. There's no way the Daos got randomly picked by the computer the second time after they had volunteered the first time. So the random computer selection process crap is complete lie by United corporate.

I agree that does look bad - however if United was singling out volunteers then both he and his wife would have been told to leave instead of him and 3 other people.

 

[ponyo]

i think you don't have any proof one way or another

I don't have to prove a thing. United has to prove Daos got randomly picked the second time.

I agree that does look bad - however if he was singled out because he volunteered then I would think they both would have been told to leave since they both volunteered

They both were told to leave. His wife left. He didn't. Who's going to believe both of them got randomly selected the second time. This was no random picking.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

And thats exactly how i see it as going down.
Ive dealt with people who just wont cooperate and when they just start squirming (their bodies )and moving you just dont know what they will do next. Which makes it very hard to control and protect them from getting injured. He obviously struggled against the security because you dont get injured when you cooperate like the other three passengers did.
Now i dont know why everyone is calling the ceo an asshole. He wasnt there and wasnt in control. And i dont even want to blame the security. I dont think a single security person expected this outcome. Its unfortunate that he got hurt but when it comes to the point of security needing to be called you would expect most people to comply. Obviously this guy thought differently and a bad situation became worse.
The sad thing is that he will probably get rewarded for not being complient. So in the future security will only have the authority to politely ask you to do something and you can say no and they will just have to walk away

Man, what a crisis, if people aren't compliant you might have to ask nicely then try a tactic other than brute force! What has our world come to when man can't simply be beaten into submission! Surely this is the downfall of America!

 

[Viper GTS]

I mean go right ahead and make up whatever you want I guess because I never said anything like that.

Flyertalk has several other reports that mention yelling from the Dr. from other passengers although I don't have it in me to sift through the 240+ page thread. Apparently he also ran back onto the plane and had to be removed a second time:

I agree that does look bad - however if United was singling out volunteers then both he and his wife would have been told to leave instead of him and 3 other people.

Other reports have said it was him + his wife. Two couples. Also in the videos I believe she is the woman following the group down the aisle. She didn't leave without him.

Viper GTS

 

[elitejp]

Man, what a crisis, if people aren't compliant you might have to ask nicely then try a tactic other than brute force! What has our world come to when man can't simply be beaten into submission! Surely this is the downfall of America!

Or the plane just never takes off.
Its not like security went in there and just started beating the guy. Rather they tried to forcibly remove him, he resisted. My point is security wasnt purposely trying to beat the crap out of the guy. He suffered a small injury. At least call it what it is

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Or the plane just never takes off.
Its not like security went in there and just started beating the guy. Rather they tried to forcibly remove him, he resisted. My point is security wasnt purposely trying to beat the crap out of the guy. He suffered a small injury. At least call it what it is

Okay, I'll call it what it was. The airline's bottom line was affected by not having four United employees on this aircraft, and so they made the choice to a) attempt to bribe people to take the next flight, which didn't work, at which point b) they attempted to remove four unwilling people. One resisted, so they called in the muscle to remove him forcibly. He refused to comply, and as a result was injured by the actions of the forced removal.

They could have offered more compensation as part of the bribery, or simply accepted that they were going to take an L for failing to account for an aircraft which didn't have proper staff available to take off the next morning. Both of those cost money, however, while forcibly removing an uncooperative 'client' didn't, so they chose the latter.

 

[Exterous]

Other reports have said it was him + his wife. Two couples. Also in the videos I believe she is the woman following the group down the aisle. She didn't leave without him.

Viper GTS

I don't have to prove a thing. United has to prove Daos got randomly picked the second time.

They both were told to leave. His wife left. He didn't. Who's going to believe both of them got randomly selected the second time. This was no random picking.

I've not see it reported that his wife was asked to leave only that she chose to leave with him. Other reports just say 'A third person was asked to leave and did'. While I would hope that journalism like the NY Times would be on point enough to know that the 3rd person was his wife but perhaps the rush to get the new story out is too much. If it was him and his wife then I agree that its very unlikely it was a computer selection

 

[shortylickens]

Someone explain

 

[ponyo]

Someone explain

The guy isn't Chinese so this no longer works. But I do hope the Chinese protest and would love to see the Chinese traffic for United completely dry up. That would make my day. So would firing of that asshole CEO Oscar Munoz.

 

[Skel]

Assuming 1 captain, one copilot and 2 FAs you're looking at about $250,000 in salary on that flight. Having spare crew around to cover the gaps means you need multiple crews doing nothing to cover a days worth of flights since they have to follow certain FAA regulations in terms of rest even when not flying. RPA airlines flies to about 65 airports. So thats an extra $32M in operation costs. In Q3 2016 RPA had a net loss of $366M. So thats just RPA. If we're talking United as a whole thats a higher average pay scale and some 200 airports. (Captains make between $232/hr and $328/hr depending on seniority and plane type). Plus you can't just pick crew and stick them on any airplane - they have to be trained and certified on them. United has 11 different aircraft and 21 variants. Thats a ton of crew and a ton of salary for only occasional use at best. Could they do it? Sure. But you would pay for it in the ticket price. And United would lose business - far more than this incident has cost them. How do we know? Look at Spirit Airlines. The most complained about airline by several orders of magnitude. 3x the IDBs as United. A worse on time rating. Longer average delays. More flight cancellations per passenger. More lost luggage by traveler. Yet incredibly successful and took notable market share away from the legacy carriers. The market has spoken and the market wants the cheapest experience possible even if that means is a shitty experience fraught with delays and awful customer service.



I guess I'm not sure the point of mentioning race then

While that's a lot of working around to say that price is worth it to the airline, I still don't get how as a customer the airline's lack of ability to properly staff it's resources means that a paying customer should be screwed over. I get that it'd cost United a bunch of money, but as a customer it's not my problem on how that business runs it's resources. I just care about getting what I paid for. It's not like the customer gets any bonuses when the business is doing well, so why should they care when there's an issue?

 

[Svnla]

Look like United did not provide any written statement as per DOT's requirement - https://www.yahoo.com/news/uniteds-real-mistake-173844672.html

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

While that's a lot of working around to say that price is worth it to the airline, I still don't get how as a customer the airline's lack of ability to properly staff it's resources means that a paying customer should be screwed over. I get that it'd cost United a bunch of money, but as a customer it's not my problem on how that business runs it's resources. I just care about getting what I paid for. It's not like the customer gets any bonuses when the business is doing well, so why should they care when there's an issue?

According to some, because it's fine to put the customer on the hook for the actions of the Company, such as failure to plan ahead, failure to staff properly, and failure to perform appropriate risk assessment.

 

[ponyo]

Look like United did not provide any written statement as per DOT's requirement - https://www.yahoo.com/news/uniteds-real-mistake-173844672.html

They didn't provide written statement and they didn't pick random like they said they did. Dao and his wife were picked because they had volunteered earlier and were asian. Fire Oscar Munoz. Sorry, re-accommodate Oscar Munoz.

 

[SaltyNuts]

I think the important thing here is what airline can I fly in the U.S. that won't sell out my seats and leave the flight overbooked so I can't get on the plane? Anyone have any idea? Thanks.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I think the important thing here is what airline can I fly in the U.S. that won't sell out my seats and leave the flight overbooked so I can't get on the plane? Anyone have any idea? Thanks.

Private jet, or your own vehicle. Can't even rely on them not overbooking, apparently.