Union plumbers throw wrench in Tom Brady's plan

[TheoPetro]

Originally posted by: dartworth
Well I know the charge out rate for my shop here in Cleveland is near $70/hour now, so I would assume it is closer to $80 in Boston.


::shrug::

is that 70/hr for residential or commercial plumbing? Commercial tends to have a lower hourly billing rate. I know we do 99% new commercial and its nowhere near a 70/hr bill rate (akron ohio).

back to the topic though. The whole "use union or else" is utter BS. Use what ever the hell you want. If you want to build a house and use the second lowest bidder then thats your right. Youre paying for it. The unions can go shove this up their collective asses. They are overstepping their boundaries by telling the customer what type of subs to use and they may have gotten away with it in the past but their power is quickly diminishing. Cry, bitch and moan some more please you will fit right in with every other group in this country that "the man" is holding down.

Also I was a plumber for 4 years. 60 an hour is nuts unless you can run 5 jobs yourself. With the average skill of our plumbers its tough to find one that we are able to pay more than 20/hr. Dont get me wrong, it is really hard work. It is no where near fun to go outside in 100+ degree heat and dig ditches for an underground for 10 hour days, but that work doesnt warrant a $60/hr paycheck.

 

[shilala]

Originally posted by: dartworth
Well I know the charge out rate for my shop here in Cleveland is near $70/hour now, so I would assume it is closer to $80 in Boston.


::shrug::

Makes sense then. I suppose I was thinking bid chargeout rather than T&M.
I never paid any attention to the billing on T&M work, but last figure I saw for chargeout at the shop I worked at was around $62.00. That was for some hospital work and was a long time ago.
Pretty much gives away what I've been doing, doesn't it?

 

[dartworth]

I am a pipefitter here in Cleveland and my shop's charge out rate is $67/hr. Some of the larger contractors are at $70-75. This is commercial and industrial work. Of course I don't get paid $67/hr, that is what my company charges the customer. Yes this is for T&M work. I'm not sure what figure they use for contact work.

TheoPetro...what is your positon? What do you pay your top mechanics?

 

[BoomerD]

It amazes me that folks here with college degrees think they're worth whatever they can get, but a union tradesman who spent 6000-8000 hours in an apprenticeship PLUS ~150 hours in unpaid schooling every year are always overpaid...If you compare hours spent in learning the trade, MOST journeymen in the trades have as much or MORE time into learning their trades than most people with a Master's degree...

 

[Phokus]

That union needs to put the crack pipe down.

PS. Tom Brady > Ben Roethlisberger

 

[TheoPetro]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
It amazes me that folks here with college degrees think they're worth whatever they can get, but a union tradesman who spent 6000-8000 hours in an apprenticeship PLUS ~150 hours in unpaid schooling every year are always overpaid...If you compare hours spent in learning the trade, MOST journeymen in the trades have as much or MORE time into learning their trades than most people with a Master's degree...

the work amount may be similar but I dont know many journeymen that have the ability to obtain a masters degree in physics (or chemistry, or any of the sciences for that matter). I was in physics however and I could easily become a journeymen plumber or carpenter (assuming I joined a union).

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
It amazes me that folks here with college degrees think they're worth whatever they can get, but a union tradesman who spent 6000-8000 hours in an apprenticeship PLUS ~150 hours in unpaid schooling every year are always overpaid...If you compare hours spent in learning the trade, MOST journeymen in the trades have as much or MORE time into learning their trades than most people with a Master's degree...

Should I be impressed with the hops the union created to keep the supply of tradesman artificially low and therefor make their wages artificially high.

 

[MikeyIs4Dcats]

see thats the funny thing, not many people say to themselves "you know, I'm gonna try to engineer a rocket", but they'll decide they can do the electrical work or roofing work on their house. And they fvck it up and half the time don't even know what they did wrong.

tradesmen get no respect. they are skilled professionals. You wouldn't bat an eye at paying a qualified lawyer $200 an hour, but you assume that $60 for a plumber is too much?

go stand ankle deep in someone else's shit, or shut the fvck up.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: TheoPetro
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: BoomerD
It amazes me that folks here with college degrees think they're worth whatever they can get, but a union tradesman who spent 6000-8000 hours in an apprenticeship PLUS ~150 hours in unpaid schooling every year are always overpaid...If you compare hours spent in learning the trade, MOST journeymen in the trades have as much or MORE time into learning their trades than most people with a Master's degree...</end quote></div>

the work amount may be similar but I dont know many journeymen that have the ability to obtain a masters degree in physics (or chemistry, or any of the sciences for that matter). I was in physics however and I could easily become a journeymen plumber or carpenter (assuming I joined a union).

Dart or one of the other plumbers can fill in the gaps, but while having your background may help with the trade, math alone isn't gonna make you a tradesman. You need a LOT more than just being able to do the math. You'll need to be able to actually do the physical work...you'll need to know different standards and building code provisions, you'll have to be willing to get dirty...

Originally posted by: smack Down

Should I be impressed with the hops the union created to keep the supply of tradesman artificially low and therefor make their wages artificially high.

You think that actually having to know the job to be considered qualified is "creating hops to keep the supply of tradesman artificially low and therefor make their wages artificially high?"

Heck, let's just hire anyone off the street and let them plumb a house, build high-rises, weld sensitive piping, etc...
Having standards that a journeyman has to meet makes things better built, safer, and less likely to fail...maybe you think joe-blow who can weld the plow he pulls behind his tractor should be able to weld the piping for a nuk-u-leer plant...or the guy who managed to wire his barn without burning it down should be allowed to wire houses without having to pass certain tests...

 

[shilala]

Originally posted by: TheoPetro
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: BoomerD
It amazes me that folks here with college degrees think they're worth whatever they can get, but a union tradesman who spent 6000-8000 hours in an apprenticeship PLUS ~150 hours in unpaid schooling every year are always overpaid...If you compare hours spent in learning the trade, MOST journeymen in the trades have as much or MORE time into learning their trades than most people with a Master's degree...</end quote></div>

the work amount may be similar but I dont know many journeymen that have the ability to obtain a masters degree in physics (or chemistry, or any of the sciences for that matter). I was in physics however and I could easily become a journeymen plumber or carpenter (assuming I joined a union).

I do. But I enjoyed dope, drinking and pussy far too much to spend wasted money in college. So I jumped on the plumber bus.
It's cool. I seldom work and have had time to learn, see and do more sht than most people see in a lifetime.

 

[TheoPetro]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: TheoPetro
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: BoomerD
It amazes me that folks here with college degrees think they're worth whatever they can get, but a union tradesman who spent 6000-8000 hours in an apprenticeship PLUS ~150 hours in unpaid schooling every year are always overpaid...If you compare hours spent in learning the trade, MOST journeymen in the trades have as much or MORE time into learning their trades than most people with a Master's degree...</end quote></div>

the work amount may be similar but I dont know many journeymen that have the ability to obtain a masters degree in physics (or chemistry, or any of the sciences for that matter). I was in physics however and I could easily become a journeymen plumber or carpenter (assuming I joined a union).

</end quote></div>

Dart or one of the other plumbers can fill in the gaps, but while having your background may help with the trade, math alone isn't gonna make you a tradesman. You need a LOT more than just being able to do the math. You'll need to be able to actually do the physical work...you'll need to know different standards and building code provisions, you'll have to be willing to get dirty...


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: smack Down

Should I be impressed with the hops the union created to keep the supply of tradesman artificially low and therefor make their wages artificially high.</end quote></div>

You think that actually having to know the job to be considered qualified is "creating hops to keep the supply of tradesman artificially low and therefor make their wages artificially high?"

Heck, let's just hire anyone off the street and let them plumb a house, build high-rises, weld sensitive piping, etc...
Having standards that a journeyman has to meet makes things better built, safer, and less likely to fail...maybe you think joe-blow who can weld the plow he pulls behind his tractor should be able to weld the piping for a nuk-u-leer plant...or the guy who managed to wire his barn without burning it down should be allowed to wire houses without having to pass certain tests...

I have done the physical work. I do know most of the code (plumbing more so than construction) I was out in the field as a helper for 4 years. My point was just that comparing academia to construction is comparing apples to oranges. I also dont think that every chemist could go out and do plumbing but I think the number of chemists that can do plumbing is higher than the number of plumbers that can do chemistry (just my opinion from what I have observed).

 

[TheoPetro]

Originally posted by: shilala
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: TheoPetro
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: BoomerD
It amazes me that folks here with college degrees think they're worth whatever they can get, but a union tradesman who spent 6000-8000 hours in an apprenticeship PLUS ~150 hours in unpaid schooling every year are always overpaid...If you compare hours spent in learning the trade, MOST journeymen in the trades have as much or MORE time into learning their trades than most people with a Master's degree...</end quote></div>

the work amount may be similar but I dont know many journeymen that have the ability to obtain a masters degree in physics (or chemistry, or any of the sciences for that matter). I was in physics however and I could easily become a journeymen plumber or carpenter (assuming I joined a union).

</end quote></div>I do. But I enjoyed dope, drinking and pussy far too much to spend wasted money in college. So I jumped on the plumber bus.
It's cool. I seldom work and have had time to learn, see and do more sht than most people see in a lifetime.

You really know a lot of journeymen that have the ability to understand quantum mechanics? Hell most of our guys have trouble filling out time cards correctly let alone comprehending different energy states of electrons.

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: TheoPetro
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: BoomerD
It amazes me that folks here with college degrees think they're worth whatever they can get, but a union tradesman who spent 6000-8000 hours in an apprenticeship PLUS ~150 hours in unpaid schooling every year are always overpaid...If you compare hours spent in learning the trade, MOST journeymen in the trades have as much or MORE time into learning their trades than most people with a Master's degree...</end quote></div>

the work amount may be similar but I dont know many journeymen that have the ability to obtain a masters degree in physics (or chemistry, or any of the sciences for that matter). I was in physics however and I could easily become a journeymen plumber or carpenter (assuming I joined a union).

</end quote></div>

Dart or one of the other plumbers can fill in the gaps, but while having your background may help with the trade, math alone isn't gonna make you a tradesman. You need a LOT more than just being able to do the math. You'll need to be able to actually do the physical work...you'll need to know different standards and building code provisions, you'll have to be willing to get dirty...


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: smack Down

Should I be impressed with the hops the union created to keep the supply of tradesman artificially low and therefor make their wages artificially high.</end quote></div>

You think that actually having to know the job to be considered qualified is "creating hops to keep the supply of tradesman artificially low and therefor make their wages artificially high?"

Heck, let's just hire anyone off the street and let them plumb a house, build high-rises, weld sensitive piping, etc...
Having standards that a journeyman has to meet makes things better built, safer, and less likely to fail...maybe you think joe-blow who can weld the plow he pulls behind his tractor should be able to weld the piping for a nuk-u-leer plant...or the guy who managed to wire his barn without burning it down should be allowed to wire houses without having to pass certain tests...

Wow, you know the building code. Of course anyone could go online and read them, oh wait they are secret laws that are not allowed to be published by the city never mind.

 

[dartworth]

Originally posted by: TheoPetro

You really know a lot of journeymen that have the ability to understand quantum mechanics? Hell most of our guys have trouble filling out time cards correctly let alone comprehending different energy states of electrons.

Do you have a college degree?

I can guarantee that I can do your job just a good as you and probably even better.

Anytime you want to come visit me at work and weld on some SCH 160 chrome main steam line let me know.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: TheoPetro
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: shilala
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: TheoPetro
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: BoomerD
It amazes me that folks here with college degrees think they're worth whatever they can get, but a union tradesman who spent 6000-8000 hours in an apprenticeship PLUS ~150 hours in unpaid schooling every year are always overpaid...If you compare hours spent in learning the trade, MOST journeymen in the trades have as much or MORE time into learning their trades than most people with a Master's degree...</end quote></div>

the work amount may be similar but I dont know many journeymen that have the ability to obtain a masters degree in physics (or chemistry, or any of the sciences for that matter). I was in physics however and I could easily become a journeymen plumber or carpenter (assuming I joined a union).

</end quote></div>I do. But I enjoyed dope, drinking and pussy far too much to spend wasted money in college. So I jumped on the plumber bus.
It's cool. I seldom work and have had time to learn, see and do more sht than most people see in a lifetime.

</end quote></div>

You really know a lot of journeymen that have the ability to understand quantum mechanics? Hell most of our guys have trouble filling out time cards correctly let alone comprehending different energy states of electrons.

No one said plumbers should be nuk-u-leer scientists...but then again, perhaps nuk-u-leer scientists aren't cut out to be plumbers either...

Originally posted by: smack Down
Wow, you know the building code. Of course anyone could go online and read them, oh wait they are secret laws that are not allowed to be published by the city never mind.

going on line and reading building codes doesn't make you understand them anymore than if I go on line and read quantum physics makes me understand that...PLUS, it's rare for a plumber to have on-line access in his tool-box...although MOST do have a Fitter's manual with them...

My point isn't that they know certain building codes...it's that not EVERYONE is qualifed to do the work...just like not everyone is qualified to write computer code, or do the engineering involved with designing buildings, bridges, or power plants...

The level of training involved in the trades is more "hands-on" than in the sciences, but that doesn't make it less valuable...your college degree in physics won't help you become a better ironworker or carpenter, but knowing the math may give you more insight into WHY things are the way they are, and should help you with the necessary calculations for angles and stresses. Knowing calculus won't make you a better pipefitter, (experience will) but will help you calculate all the different factors involved in making that piping fit where it's supposed to go...A math or computer science degree won't make you a better crane or equipment operator, but may help with calculating angles, radius, (if you can read a tape measure) or even checking grade and surveying...ALL things you need to have at least a minimum knowledge of as a journeyman...

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy

Originally posted by: Savij
Metric president Geoffre Karaboolad said he would have been happy to hire union plumbers for the Brady job but none contacted him during the bidding process.

Exactly... Unions just suck. They had their place in the early 1900's. Now they are just a bunch of shakedown artists.

What an uneducated comment. Just because this union is like this doesn't mean that all unions are like this.

No. It's a very educated comment. Every union I've ever had to deal with, UFCW, Teamsters, IBEW... they are all like that. Shakedown artists. Extortionists. Thugs. Unions could give a crap about their members. (Don't have a job and can't pay your dues... see how much they love you then) Unions are like governments. They crave power and control and only exist to get more of it for themselves.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

That figure is just as arbitrary as your wage figure. The point is, wages are not directly linked to what a person "deserves" to make.

There is no "deserves" in capitalism. You're going to make what you can get.

If you spent $100,000 and 8 years of schooling to get a Phd and you still don't make as much as a plumber, that's your problem. The fact of the matter is that in capitalism, you're going to make what people think you are worth, not what you think you are worth.

If you think you're worth more then try selling your services to someone else for what you think your time is worth. If they agree, then you'll make that money. If nobody wants to take you up on the offer, then I guess that nobody else feels that you're worth that amount.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy

No. It's a very educated comment. Every union I've ever had to deal with, UFCW, Teamsters, IBEW... they are all like that. Shakedown artists. Extortionists. Thugs. Unions could give a crap about their members. (Don't have a job and can't pay your dues... see how much they love you then) Unions are like governments. They crave power and control and only exist to get more of it for themselves.

My mom is the president of the nurses union. I hear about the crap they have to deal with. The hospital was trying to claim that they're no longer bound to a contract that they signed and that they're going to cut wages. The nurses unionized, took the matter to court, and won.

There is all kinds of crap that is going on. The hospital claimed that it didn't have the money to pay the nurses the amount that they agreed to, but they wouldn't release their financial data. The union had to take that to court just to have them release it. Once they released it, they discovered that the executives repeatedly gave themselves huge raises and bonuses while trying to cut the nurses' pay.

You can't get people to comply just by asking for it. You need to have someone working for you full time and pursue the issues in court.

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

That figure is just as arbitrary as your wage figure. The point is, wages are not directly linked to what a person "deserves" to make.</end quote></div>

There is no "deserves" in capitalism. You're going to make what you can get.

If you spent $100,000 and 8 years of schooling to get a Phd and you still don't make as much as a plumber, that's your problem. The fact of the matter is that in capitalism, you're going to make what people think you are worth, not what you think you are worth.

If you think you're worth more then try selling your services to someone else for what you think your time is worth. If they agree, then you'll make that money. If nobody wants to take you up on the offer, then I guess that nobody else feels that you're worth that amount.

I understand and agree. What I have a problem with is people thinking that because they make a certain amount of money that they deserve to make that much because "they work hard."

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf


I understand and agree. What I have a problem with is people thinking that because they make a certain amount of money that they deserve to make that much because "they work hard."

Yeah, that doesn't make sense either. They're lucky they are making as much as they are.

And that wage isn't guaranteed forever, either. If some new development makes their job redundant, then suddenly they're not needed anymore.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: dartworth
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: TheoPetro

You really know a lot of journeymen that have the ability to understand quantum mechanics? Hell most of our guys have trouble filling out time cards correctly let alone comprehending different energy states of electrons.</end quote></div>


Do you have a college degree?

I can guarantee that I can do your job just a good as you and probably even better.

Anytime you want to come visit me at work and weld on some SCH 160 chrome main steam line let me know.

I doubt that you can instantly do someone's job better without any sort of training or related education. Talk about a big ego...

People aren't saying that plumbers are stupid. However, I think that it would be easier to be a plumber than a nuclear physicist. The entry requirements are less and it requires less brain power. More people can be a plumber than a nuclear physicist.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

People aren't saying that plumbers are stupid. However, I think that it would be easier to be a plumber than a nuclear physicist. The entry requirements are less and it requires less brain power. More people can be a plumber than a nuclear physicist.

That all depends on the person. I'd imagine that it would be easier for Stephen Hawking to be a nuclear physicist than a plumber.

 

[NoShangriLa]

That is about the rate that the contractor charge. And there are 2 plumber unions in North America.

The going rate for a journeyman plumber is about $25-28/hour, but pay increase do get upward to $33-35 an hour for a foreman/job runner. Benefits add an additional $5-6/hour.

And, yes Plumber Unions are babies that constantly fight with each others and then there are corruptions at the very top level that pissed the hell out of the little guys.

<-- The above reasons discourage me from working for the plumbing union.

 

[NoShangriLa]

People aren't saying that plumbers are stupid. However, I think that it would be easier to be a plumber than a nuclear physicist. The entry requirements are less and it requires less brain power. More people can be a plumber than a nuclear physicist.

That all depends on the person. I'd imagine that it would be easier for Stephen Hawking to be a nuclear physicist than a plumber.

It very well be that it is easier to be a plumber than a physicist, however not everyone can be or want to be a plumber or an physicist.

The failing rate for plumbing & pipe trades in the college that I attended is 50%, and at least 50% of the people that pass will only work as a low level plumber/laborer. It take business minded person with skills to run a run of the mill plumbing company. And, then it takes even more skills to manage a successful mechanical plumbing company.

Running a company is not as easy at most people think, because it require business/managerial/mechanical engineering skills for plumbing.

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: MikeyIs4Dcats
what a horrible union....most aren't like this. It does seem that it is more common for the plumbers & pipefitters locals to be crybabies though.

BS, all of them are like this.

My favorite union story ever was one from a couple years ago which detailed that the new AFL Union Hall in Houston was constructed without union labor. The reason: Cost! bwahahahahaha...