Union in Indiana does end run around Unionization laws.

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CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
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Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Whenever the subject of Unions and RTW comes up, CkG seems to find it necessary to inject this falsehood-

Now what you continually forget is that Unions do NOT have to choose to create an exclusive bargaining type of Union which would "protect" them from "moochers" as you call them.

Which is complete FUD. Federal law demands that Unions represent all the workers in a bargaining unit if a majority have opted for union representation, RTW state or not. Yes, Unions want it that way, but it's still a requirement of the law, with sound underpinnings in democratic principles.

Too bad we can't apply CkG's "principles" on a national level- Americans who didn't vote for Bush (actually a majority) wouldn't have to comply with executive directives, either. Which is an absurd proposition, natch, but no more absurd than the one advanced by CkG and other RTW advocates.

I also attempted several search engine queries, all of which came up empty- apparently only the linked site finds this incident to be of major import. And I'm confident the spin imparted to the whole thing isn't exactly neutral. Seems to me that it's a little premature to make any judgements- wait until after the de-certification election before crying foul. RTW advocates are scared sh!tless of card-check unionization- it effectively denies many of the strongarm tactics used by employers to prevent unionization.

Despite claims to the contrary, Guido and Vinnie don't do Labor organizing much any more- their grandchildren do security consulting work and training for outfits like Walmart, and other unspecified security services for the campaign to re-elect the president. Organized crime went legit- they're now Republican.

http://mediafilter.org/caq/CAQ54p.police.html


You are so full of s#!t it isn't even funny. NO WHERE does the law state that Unions HAVE to set up exclusive bargaining contracts with employers. They are more than able to set up "member only" contracts if they wish. YOU have never proven otherwise and I've shown MANY sources that support what I have stated.
You don't seem to understand what that law is talking about if you think it forces unions to be "exclusive bargaining". What the law you keep trying to say forces it actually says is that a Union must represent all IN THAT UNIT. Now if Unions would pull their heads our of their asses they'd change to a member only bargaining unit so they don't have to pay for the "moochers" as you call them. So you see - it's the UNION's fault for having to represent the "moochers" because they set up an "exclusive bargaining" contract with the employer.

So yes - please stop with the union propaganda because you are 100% wrong. IIRC the USA and Canada? are about the ONLY 2 places where "exclusive bargaining" is even allowed by the gov't. Maybe Europe figured out that it doesn't work well when shops are closed and exclusive....we could probably learn something from them on this front.

Too bad your post was full of rant and tripe and contained no real info - just union propaganda.

Now once again - go back and reread that law you cite - and then come back and show people where if FORCES unions to have an "exclusive bargaining contract". I won't hold my breath.....because I can tell you right now that it does NOT force unions to have an exclusive bargaining contract...but if they do they have to represent everyone in the "unit"(which could be "member only" if they pulled their head out) if they have an exclusive bargaining agreement - even in RTW states.

Care to educate yourself Jhhhn? or are you always going to spew this pro-union drivel?

CkG
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
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www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
A Right to Work law secures the right of employees to decide for themselves whether or not to join or financially support a union. = Choice.

Non Right to Work states offer no opportunity for the employee to decide; they must join the union in order to work. = No Choice.

Not exactly true. Unions are an example of Democracy in action, majority rule. That's very dependent on participation by the members- complacency is something lousy leadership depends on, whether they're in the union office or the Whitehouse. The decertification procedure is really pretty liberal, requiring only that a petition signed by 30% of the group be presented to have a de-certification election.

New employees in a Union Shop scenario, even in a RTW state, must, of course, pay that portion of the dues used for non-political purposes. Their coworkers chose union representation at some point in the past through a majority decision, and they all maintain the right and the means to seek democratic de-certification of the Union. Following the RTW line of reasoning, immigrants shouldn't have to pay taxes, either, even though the majority of citizens they join has democratically decided that they'll all pay taxes. Again, it's an absurdity.

Democracy isn't absolute freedom, nor can it ever be. But it's a nice alternative to Totalitarianism or Anarchy, both of which have distinct disadvantages. RTW laws are a misnomer- they're intended to cripple democratic action by workers, reduce them to anarchy, so that Management can more easily implement totalitarian control. Basic weasel maneuver allowed in the compromises necessary to establish Federal labor laws at the time of writing.

In a RTW state can a Union pull it's members off a job if the Employer hires non union workers?

As I said before, any new workers would have to pay dues, not including any portion used for political purposes. It would be illegal for the employer to hire new workers in that work group without making such a pre-condition of employment. It might spark a walkout, more likely the Union would seek injunctive relief thru the Courts.

^^Here is another example of your pro-union tripe.
rolleye.gif


So you are saying that without unions there would be anarchy or totalitarianism? Well tell that thousands of non-union shops:p Maybe you'll get them convert to unions if you tell them they work in anarchy:p Unions are past their usefulness and have become another layer of what they once fought. And in this case I cited - they have done an end run around the unionization requirement to force a shop to go union. I guess the fact that the MAJORITY of the workers in the shop had signed a petition to NOT unionize doesn't matter:p

Oh well - I hope people already have purchased their REESE and Draw-tite hitches because if this union isn't forced back out(because it isn't wanted by the MAJORITY) then prepare to pay more for those hitches. Cequent Towing Product?s is the parent company of REESE and Draw-tite;)

Oh and to answer this question:
"In a RTW state can a Union pull it's members off a job if the Employer hires non union workers?"

Yes. A Union that has an exclusive bargaining agreement with a company dictates when and for what they stage a walk out for. They could walk out for anything - even something as little as having too many non-union people out on the production floor at a time...you know like Engineers or other company employees who aren't part of the union. There has been studies done about how Unions have negatively affected overall productivity in America and walkouts is one key part of that production loss in unionized fields.

CkG
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
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www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
"Care to educate yourself Jhhhn? or are you always going to spew this pro-union drivel? CkG"

Care to educate yourself CAD? or are you always going to spew this anti-union drivel? :D

I have posted the truth - Jhhhn has this asinine idea that the gov't FORCES unions to have exclusive bargaining agreements when it does nothing of the sort. It has been so indoctrinated into union types that they think it is true though:p
Unions have now become what they used to fight against. Sad....really sad.

CkG
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
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Originally posted by: JackDawkins
Originally posted by: Ferocious
Moocher: People who like to get something for nothing.

Let me try and re-explain for the totally brainwashed....

A) RTW.....Employees and Company can NOT negotiate a closed shop agreement. They have NO choice.....it is ILLEGAL.

B) Non-RTW state....Employees and Company are allowed to negotiate such a deal. They have A choice...it is LEGAL.

RTW laws doing nothing but remove a choice by allowing for government legislative interference to step into the picture.

A key reason why Libertarians hate RTW laws.
Is this bizarro world?

A Right to Work law secures the right of employees to decide for themselves whether or not to join or financially support a union. = Choice.

Non Right to Work states offer no opportunity for the employee to decide; they must join the union in order to work. = No Choice.

Exactly. I'm not exactly sure how "closed shop" equals choice for employees at all. Yes they can vote for or against the union but if the union succeeds then it destroys choice for those who do not wish to be in a union. In RTW states employees are free to CHOOSE to join or not join a union if the shop has a union.

CkG
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: JackDawkins
Originally posted by: Ferocious
Moocher: People who like to get something for nothing.

Let me try and re-explain for the totally brainwashed....

A) RTW.....Employees and Company can NOT negotiate a closed shop agreement. They have NO choice.....it is ILLEGAL.

B) Non-RTW state....Employees and Company are allowed to negotiate such a deal. They have A choice...it is LEGAL.

RTW laws doing nothing but remove a choice by allowing for government legislative interference to step into the picture.

A key reason why Libertarians hate RTW laws.
Is this bizarro world?

A Right to Work law secures the right of employees to decide for themselves whether or not to join or financially support a union. = Choice.

Non Right to Work states offer no opportunity for the employee to decide; they must join the union in order to work. = No Choice.

Exactly. I'm not exactly sure how "closed shop" equals choice for employees at all. Yes they can vote for or against the union but if the union succeeds then it destroys choice for those who do not wish to be in a union. In RTW states employees are free to CHOOSE to join or not join a union if the shop has a union.

CkG
Can a Union stage a walk out in a RTW state over the use of non union employees?
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
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www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: JackDawkins
Originally posted by: Ferocious
Moocher: People who like to get something for nothing.

Let me try and re-explain for the totally brainwashed....

A) RTW.....Employees and Company can NOT negotiate a closed shop agreement. They have NO choice.....it is ILLEGAL.

B) Non-RTW state....Employees and Company are allowed to negotiate such a deal. They have A choice...it is LEGAL.

RTW laws doing nothing but remove a choice by allowing for government legislative interference to step into the picture.

A key reason why Libertarians hate RTW laws.
Is this bizarro world?

A Right to Work law secures the right of employees to decide for themselves whether or not to join or financially support a union. = Choice.

Non Right to Work states offer no opportunity for the employee to decide; they must join the union in order to work. = No Choice.

Exactly. I'm not exactly sure how "closed shop" equals choice for employees at all. Yes they can vote for or against the union but if the union succeeds then it destroys choice for those who do not wish to be in a union. In RTW states employees are free to CHOOSE to join or not join a union if the shop has a union.

CkG
Can a Union stage a walk out in a RTW state over the use of non union employees?

Yes as I stated at the end of a different thread that refuted Jhhhn's claims.
Oh and to answer this question:
"In a RTW state can a Union pull it's members off a job if the Employer hires non union workers?"

Yes. A Union that has an exclusive bargaining agreement with a company dictates when and for what they stage a walk out for. They could walk out for anything - even something as little as having too many non-union people out on the production floor at a time...you know like Engineers or other company employees who aren't part of the union. There has been studies done about how Unions have negatively affected overall productivity in America and walkouts is one key part of that production loss in unionized fields.

Don't believe me? I've seen it happen. Infact we sent a couple of our Engineers to babysit a plant when their maintence crew walked out. Our engineers said it wasn't too fun trying to get in and out of the plant during the walk out and the company paid out their nose for our 24/7 babysitting. Great deal for the company - no?

CkG
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
Ahh, He's Baaaack!

With more of the usual.

The truth about the whole "bargaining unit" definition is that the government defines the bargaining unit, not the union, and that the union can represent each and every one of them after obtaining that right thru a democratic process, or none of them if no majority supports the union election. Very simple, very straightforward, and very disingenuous to claim otherwise. It would also be pretty stupid for the union to reject the fees from non-members even if they could- they're obligated to represent them in any disciplinary scenario, up to and including some rather expensive arbitrations. As I said earlier, it's a democratic process- I'm stuck with your Idol, Dubya, in the Whitehouse until the next inauguration, and I acknowledge that. I have the right and the means to work for his ouster, as employees in any bargaining unit have the right to de-certify their union. They can demand such an election at any time, however, with a 30% signatory rate on a petition to that effect. Doesn't mean I have the right to not pay taxes in the meantime, and it doesn't mean that union protesters don't have to pay for the representation they have, either.

"Bargaining Unit: A group of employees in a given workplace that has sufficient commonality to constitute a unit for purposes of collective bargaining. A bargaining unit is usually defined by the National Labor Relations Board or similar federal, state, or local agencies."

http://www.afscme.org/about/ofcman12.htm

Or google <union obligation to represent all employees in a bargaining unit> for a few hundred hits, each of which contradicts Ckg's usual FUD.

Only the dimmest and most heavily indoctrinated employees refuse to pay full dues in a right to work state, anyway, seeing as how it's generally only a few dollars/month- it's like cutting your nose off to spite your face- they often abdicate the right to vote in Union matters, depending on state law and union bylaws...

As for the walkout scenario you describe, it's strictly anectdotal and obviously one-sided. You are correct, however, in stating that Unions can have a walkout whenever they feel the contract is being violated by the other side, within certain legal limitations that vary from state to state. This is, of course, generally not w/o provocation or a series of dialogues. Union members generally want to keep working, living on a budget and all- sounds like your HR team miscalculated, as they're prone to do, their collective wetdream generally being to break the union, gain a name for themselves, move up and over in the corporate structure. They gambled and lost- but blame the Union anyway... UHH-WAH! Evil Unions called us on violating the Contract! We're losing money, and it's their fault!

Not exactly....
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Ahh, He's Baaaack!

With more of the usual.

The truth about the whole "bargaining unit" definition is that the government defines the bargaining unit, not the union, and that the union can represent each and every one of them after obtaining that right thru a democratic process, or none of them if no majority supports the union election. Very simple, very straightforward, and very disingenuous to claim otherwise. It would also be pretty stupid for the union to reject the fees from non-members even if they could- they're obligated to represent them in any disciplinary scenario, up to and including some rather expensive arbitrations. As I said earlier, it's a democratic process- I'm stuck with your Idol, Dubya, in the Whitehouse until the next inauguration, and I acknowledge that. I have the right and the means to work for his ouster, as employees in any bargaining unit have the right to de-certify their union. They can demand such an election at any time, however, with a 30% signatory rate on a petition to that effect. Doesn't mean I have the right to not pay taxes in the meantime, and it doesn't mean that union protesters don't have to pay for the representation they have, either.

"Bargaining Unit: A group of employees in a given workplace that has sufficient commonality to constitute a unit for purposes of collective bargaining. A bargaining unit is usually defined by the National Labor Relations Board or similar federal, state, or local agencies."

http://www.afscme.org/about/ofcman12.htm

Or google <union obligation to represent all employees in a bargaining unit> for a few hundred hits, each of which contradicts Ckg's usual FUD.

Only the dimmest and most heavily indoctrinated employees refuse to pay full dues in a right to work state, anyway, seeing as how it's generally only a few dollars/month- it's like cutting your nose off to spite your face- they often abdicate the right to vote in Union matters, depending on state law and union bylaws...

As for the walkout scenario you describe, it's strictly anectdotal and obviously one-sided. You are correct, however, in stating that Unions can have a walkout whenever they feel the contract is being violated by the other side, within certain legal limitations that vary from state to state. This is, of course, generally not w/o provocation or a series of dialogues. Union members generally want to keep working, living on a budget and all- sounds like your HR team miscalculated, as they're prone to do, their collective wetdream generally being to break the union, gain a name for themselves, move up and over in the corporate structure. They gambled and lost- but blame the Union anyway... UHH-WAH! Evil Unions called us on violating the Contract! We're losing money, and it's their fault!

Not exactly....

And you still don't understand that Unions aren't "FORCED" by anyone but themselves to have exclusive bargaining contracts. They are more than able to have "member only" bargaining agreements. It's only once a union is formed and defined by their bargaining agreement are they forced to represent those in the "unit". The reality is quite simple for the whiners who complain about "freeloaders" or "moochers" as you call them is for the Union to adopt a "members only" bargaining unit. There is NOTHING that prevents a union from creating these "member-only" units.
I've stated this time and time again but you don't seem to be able to get it through your skull. I've even posted multiple sources which support and state the exact same thing as I've been trying to tell you.

But incase you need to read it again....here is one of your "Union backers" who admits I am right.
Former Pro-Big Labor NLRB
Chairman Admits: The Law 'Permits
"Members-Only" Bargaining'

In his 1993 book Agenda For Reform, Stanford law professor and former union lawyer William Gould, who went on to serve for four years as the Clinton-appointed chairman of the National Labor Relations Board, acknowledged that the law "permits 'members-only' bargaining for employees without regard to majority rule or an appropriate unit and without regard to exclusivity."

So why is it that union officials very rarely if ever bargain contracts covering only union members, and instead demand that every contract with an employer recognize one union as the "exclusive" bargaining agent for members and nonmembers alike?

The fact is that monopoly-bargaining privileges, which union officials euphemistically call "exclusive" representation, are something they deeply covet. "Exclusive" representation gives union officials uncontested power to negotiate over pay, promotions, work rules, and layoffs for all workers in a bureaucratically-determined "unit."

Under "exclusive" representation, union nonmembers cannot bypass the union and bargain on their own behalf, even if they have good reason to believe they could get a better contract that way. The U.S. Supreme Court acknowledged in the 1944 J.I. Case decision that many workers could get better pay and benefits by bargaining individually, but found that federal labor law would not permit such bargaining without union officials' consent. The "practice and philosophy of collective [monopoly] bargaining looks with suspicion on such individual advantages," explained the court opinion.

Even where an "exclusive" bargaining contract does not include any provision authorizing the forced collection of dues from nonmembers, or where such provisions are out-and-out forbidden by a state Right to Work law, "exclusivity" is an effective tool for corralling employees into a union.

Of course, there is nothing in the law to prevent a union from seeking to be recognized as the bargaining agent only for its members employed at a particular enterprise. And there is also nothing in the law to prevent a union that already has an "exclusive" bargaining contract to renounce that privilege and seek to bargain for its members only.

But union officials virtually never take advantage of these options, because a monopoly is what they want.
Please take time to read the whole link though...it might "enlighten" you some more.;)

Once again consider yourself educated. So please for the last time quit spewing your Union propaganda filled with falsehoods. But incase you are a glutton for punishment I have a few more links for you if you really think Unions are God's gift to workers today.


Bah - I'll toss another quote from the link in here too - for good measure.;)
In fact, according to Dr. Charles Baird, the chairman of the Economics Department at California State University, Hayward, and an expert in comparative labor law, the U.S. and Canada are the only major countries in the world today that legally authorize "exclusive" bargaining.

Furthermore, as noted above, nothing in U.S. law would prevent union officials from engaging in members-only bargaining if that were what they wanted. The experience of dozens of other countries shows that it is a viable alternative.

Therefore, union officials' argument that state Right to Work laws allow union nonmembers a so-called "free ride," and unions have no choice but to bargain on such nonmembers' behalf, is simply phony.

CkG
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
Well, CkG, what you've offered up is one scholar's POV, rather than the actual law of the land, which was settled long ago, and has been continuously refined in subsequent rulings. Check the "Exclusive Representation" section in this article-

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-174.html

and references to the NLRA act of 1935, and applicable supreme court decisions, NLRB v. Jones & Laughlin Steel Corporation, 1937, and J. I. Case Co. v. NLRB, 1944.

Obviously, the Author agrees with you in principle, otherwise he wouldn't be published on the Cato site, but he nonetheless concedes that "exclusive representation" is the law of the land, and places certain obligations on all parties. He even points out inconsistencies between the two cases, and ascribes political motivation to the 1937 decision. Doesn't change the law one bit, however. This is the same professor you quoted earlier.

It seems obvious why Unions sought to have the law written the way it is, and was a major victory at the time, even though there has been some serious whittling in the meantime. Nonetheless, that's the way it is. Some of us like it, some don't, but we all get to live by it and yet maintain the option of addressing it through our elected representatives.

Other links of interest-

http://www.doi.gov/hrm/pmanager/labfaq.html#3

http://www.nrtw.org/foundation-won.htm
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Well, CkG, what you've offered up is one scholar's POV, rather than the actual law of the land, which was settled long ago, and has been continuously refined in subsequent rulings. Check the "Exclusive Representation" section in this article-

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-174.html

and references to the NLRA act of 1935, and applicable supreme court decisions, NLRB v. Jones & Laughlin Steel Corporation, 1937, and J. I. Case Co. v. NLRB, 1944.

Obviously, the Author agrees with you in principle, otherwise he wouldn't be published on the Cato site, but he nonetheless concedes that "exclusive representation" is the law of the land, and places certain obligations on all parties. He even points out inconsistencies between the two cases, and ascribes political motivation to the 1937 decision. Doesn't change the law one bit, however. This is the same professor you quoted earlier.

It seems obvious why Unions sought to have the law written the way it is, and was a major victory at the time, even though there has been some serious whittling in the meantime. Nonetheless, that's the way it is. Some of us like it, some don't, but we all get to live by it and yet maintain the option of addressing it through our elected representatives.

Other links of interest-

http://www.doi.gov/hrm/pmanager/labfaq.html#3

http://www.nrtw.org/foundation-won.htm

Hehe - you still don't understand the argument and keep trying to say "exclusive bargaining" is the law of the land but yet have NOT produced the law or case law that FORCES unions to have "exclusive bargaining" agreements. Yes - in the cases where an exclusive bargaining agreement has been voted and agreed upon - all in the "unit" have to be represented and pay some sort of dues and have to deal with all the stuff you keep trying to point out, but I'm not arguing that. I've read everything you've linked to before and there is NOTHING that states that Unions are FORCED to enact "exclusive" agreements and don't have the choice to enter into "member-only" agreements.
Oh, and BTW - it wasn't just a scholar - he was a former union lawyer and chairman of the National Labor Relations Board. Seems like just a "scholar" to me
rolleye.gif


Stay blind and programmed Jhhhn but you are wrong. There is NO law or caselaw which forces unions to choose "exclusive" agreements instead of "member-only" agreements, and I repeat - nothing you have stated or linked to has refuted that. I've been all over this Jhhhn - I've discussed this with many more knowledgable than you and who even put up a greater fight -but in the end they could not point to the law or case that said Unions were FORCED to have "exclusive" agreements instead of being able to choose "member-only".

Now run along before I'm forced to bring down the union house with a an analysis of productivity and job loss. Or we could just return to the original subject of Union corruption and their tactics.;)

CkG
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
Here, CkG, is a link to the act itself-

http://www.nlrb.gov/nlrb/legal/manuals/rules/act.pdf

section 9, subsection 159 (a) pretty much covers it, the use of the word "shall" obligates a Union to act as I've described. Not "can" or "may" or "could" but rather "...shall be the exclusive representatives of all employees in such a unit.." and so forth. The language obligates the Union to such action, and the Supreme Court affirmed such an interpretation, as I noted earlier. And the Unions prefer it that way.

Perhaps you'd care to enter into a debate as to the meaning of "shall"- although I suspect such would further degrade your credibility in this matter. I'll save you the trouble-

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=shall&x=14&y=17

Definition 2b clearly applies-

used in laws, regulations, or directives to express what is mandatory <it shall be unlawful to carry firearms>

Anything else, before we can consider this matter closed?
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Here, CkG, is a link to the act itself-

http://www.nlrb.gov/nlrb/legal/manuals/rules/act.pdf

section 9, subsection 159 (a) pretty much covers it, the use of the word "shall" obligates a Union to act as I've described. Not "can" or "may" or "could" but rather "...shall be the exclusive representatives of all employees in such a unit.." and so forth. The language obligates the Union to such action, and the Supreme Court affirmed such an interpretation, as I noted earlier. And the Unions prefer it that way.

Perhaps you'd care to enter into a debate as to the meaning of "shall"- although I suspect such would further degrade your credibility in this matter. I'll save you the trouble-

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=shall&x=14&y=17

Definition 2b clearly applies-

used in laws, regulations, or directives to express what is mandatory <it shall be unlawful to carry firearms>

Anything else, before we can consider this matter closed?

Hehe - I've been all over that act there Jhhhn and like I've stated before - that deals with the obligations after the formation or choice of Union. It does not deal with the choice of a member-only or exclusive type agreement.
You getting the point yet? I don't give a rats ass about what they are "obligated" to do for the "unit" - I'm talking about how the "unit" is defined. IE. wether that unit is a "member-only" or "exclusive" type.
Now care to address the issue or do you wish to continue this game of pointing things out that I already know and have acknowledged? Yes - in exlusive bargaining agreements a union must do blah blah blah and whatnot.

I see you still are beating the same dead horse as last time and have yet to get a clue that it's NOT what I'm talking about.:p

CkG
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
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We need to get rid of unions and legislation that impedes corporate profits. The masses have been uppity with their expectations. I say bring back the good old days of the British Industrial Revolution. Workers had it so good then, and the companies were so kind, just like the coal mining camps of yesteryear.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
Still dodging, are we?

" I don't give a rats ass about what they are "obligated" to do for the "unit" - I'm talking about how the "unit" is defined."

Reference the NLRA once again. Section 9, subsection 159(b) [Determination of Bargaining Unit by Board] clearly states that the NLRB shall define the work unit, not the Union. I pointed this out earlier, but you've chosen to ignore it, as is often the case when facts contradict your pov. That definition renders your whole diatribe moot. The NLRB determines the membership in a bargaining unit, and the union is obligated to, "shall", exercise "exclusive representation" on their behalf, as per section 159, subsection 9(a).

The law serves as the framework within which Collective Bargaining agreements exist. The NLRB defines the Bargaining Unit, and the Union must represent all of the members of that unit if elected by a majority within that unit to do so. It's an all or nothing take it or leave it kind of deal, with precedents in the case law cited above. Your only source, Prof Baird, agrees that such is the case in the Cato article linked previously.

The whole proposition you've advanced, non-exclusive bargaining, simply cannot exist within the framework of the law, unless the NLRB chooses to define "Work Unit" in the manner you've described. And, I suppose, that's not completely out of the question, although it would seem to be very much like defining ketchup as a vegetable, or burger flippers as manufacturers.



 
May 10, 2001
2,669
0
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Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
We need to get rid of unions and legislation that impedes corporate profits. The masses have been uppity with their expectations. I say bring back the good old days of the British Industrial Revolution. Workers had it so good then, and the companies were so kind, just like the coal mining camps of yesteryear.
oh: before the welfare system that allows people not to take the worst jobs? and before a minimum wage? and before things like OSHA; Even in RTW states a major problem with the work-environment will lead to a walk/sick-out. But people also get what they are actually worth, without constantly trying to cheat the American consumer out of cash with union-quality work and 6 billion in union fees a year.

Corporations will always maximize profit, and as long as we keep them from 'collectively bargaining' with their goods the quest for profit will lead to the best prices for everyone; When you install unions inflating the cost of labor input you just have higher prices and fewer employees.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Still dodging, are we?

" I don't give a rats ass about what they are "obligated" to do for the "unit" - I'm talking about how the "unit" is defined."

Reference the NLRA once again. Section 9, subsection 159(b) [Determination of Bargaining Unit by Board] clearly states that the NLRB shall define the work unit, not the Union. I pointed this out earlier, but you've chosen to ignore it, as is often the case when facts contradict your pov. That definition renders your whole diatribe moot. The NLRB determines the membership in a bargaining unit, and the union is obligated to, "shall", exercise "exclusive representation" on their behalf, as per section 159, subsection 9(a).

The law serves as the framework within which Collective Bargaining agreements exist. The NLRB defines the Bargaining Unit, and the Union must represent all of the members of that unit if elected by a majority within that unit to do so. It's an all or nothing take it or leave it kind of deal, with precedents in the case law cited above. Your only source, Prof Baird, agrees that such is the case in the Cato article linked previously.

The whole proposition you've advanced, non-exclusive bargaining, simply cannot exist within the framework of the law, unless the NLRB chooses to define "Work Unit" in the manner you've described. And, I suppose, that's not completely out of the question, although it would seem to be very much like defining ketchup as a vegetable, or burger flippers as manufacturers.

I've already stated and acknowledged as much but YOU keep missing the point. I already KNOW and understand all the "obligations" once a "unit" if formed - but there is NO law or case law that FORCES unions to be "exclusive" instead of "member only" "units". Get the picture yet? Or will you continually repeat stuff that has NOTHING to do with the point.:p I'm not talking about "non-exclusive" within the unit - I'm saying the UNIT doesn't have to be exclusive - it can be formed as a member-only bargaining unit. NOTHING in the law forbids it like I've constantly had to point out.

Maybe you need to re-read THIS. so you will understand what I'm talking about.

Big Labor propaganda against Right to Work laws and legislation often implies, and sometimes claims flat out, that federal labor law "forces" union officials to negotiate contract terms for employees who choose not to join a union.

For example, "The Big Lie," a mass-produced AFL-CIO booklet that officers of AFL-CIO-affiliated unions frequently distribute during anti-Right to Work lobbying campaigns, brazenly contends:

"Federal law requires a union to represent all employees where the union has a contract with the employer."

On its face, this claim is simply false.

As Roberts' Dictionary of Industrial Relations, a basic reference book for any student of U.S. labor law, shows clearly, nothing in federal law prevents union officials and employers from negotiating contracts in which "the employer recognizes the union for its members only."

Under the entry: "Bargaining Agent, for Members Only," Roberts' Dictionary even offers a sample members-only contract clause: "The employer recognizes the union as the collective bargaining agency for all of its employees who are members of the union on all matters affecting those employees who are members."


Former Pro-Big Labor NLRB
Chairman Admits: The Law 'Permits
"Members-Only" Bargaining'

In his 1993 book Agenda For Reform, Stanford law professor and former union lawyer William Gould, who went on to serve for four years as the Clinton-appointed chairman of the National Labor Relations Board, acknowledged that the law "permits 'members-only' bargaining for employees without regard to majority rule or an appropriate unit and without regard to exclusivity."

So why is it that union officials very rarely if ever bargain contracts covering only union members, and instead demand that every contract with an employer recognize one union as the "exclusive" bargaining agent for members and nonmembers alike?

The fact is that monopoly-bargaining privileges, which union officials euphemistically call "exclusive" representation, are something they deeply covet. "Exclusive" representation gives union officials uncontested power to negotiate over pay, promotions, work rules, and layoffs for all workers in a bureaucratically-determined "unit."

Under "exclusive" representation, union nonmembers cannot bypass the union and bargain on their own behalf, even if they have good reason to believe they could get a better contract that way. The U.S. Supreme Court acknowledged in the 1944 J.I. Case decision that many workers could get better pay and benefits by bargaining individually, but found that federal labor law would not permit such bargaining without union officials' consent. The "practice and philosophy of collective [monopoly] bargaining looks with suspicion on such individual advantages," explained the court opinion.

Even where an "exclusive" bargaining contract does not include any provision authorizing the forced collection of dues from nonmembers, or where such provisions are out-and-out forbidden by a state Right to Work law, "exclusivity" is an effective tool for corralling employees into a union.

Of course, there is nothing in the law to prevent a union from seeking to be recognized as the bargaining agent only for its members employed at a particular enterprise. And there is also nothing in the law to prevent a union that already has an "exclusive" bargaining contract to renounce that privilege and seek to bargain for its members only.

But union officials virtually never take advantage of these options, because a monopoly is what they want.


AFL-CIO Estimates That 200,000 Private-
Sector Workers Are Unionized Annually
Through Sweetheart Deals With Employers

In addition to taking advantage of federal and state laws forcing employers, under certain circumstances, to recognize unions as employees' "exclusive" representatives, Big Labor, according its own figures, even more frequently obtains "exclusive" bargaining power through sweetheart agreements with employers.

Cornell University professor Kate Bronfenbrenner, a staunch ally of Organized Labor, has reported (in her February 2000 paper, "The American Labour Movement and the Resurgence in Union Organizing") that the AFL-CIO estimates that as many as 200,000 private-sector workers nationwide become unionized every year as a result of union officials' cutting deals with employers who expect thereby either to stop being harassed or to win concessions.

As Dr. Bronfenbrenner and many others have noted, employers most often cut deals recognizing unions as their employees' "exclusive" bargaining agents as a result of ongoing or threatened picketing, boycotts, and pressure campaigns by third parties. Only a relatively small minority of so-called "voluntary" recognitions occur because the employer believes a mandatory recognition is imminent.

By the AFL-CIO's estimate, then, two-thirds or more of current private-sector union organizing is done through sweetheart deals. In recent years, the number of employees annually unionized through mandatory recognitions resulting from National Labor Relations Board-sponsored elections or card counts has never significantly exceeded 100,000, and has on more than one occasion been much lower than that.

Across the World, Government-Authorized
'Exclusive' Bargaining Is Rare, and Getting Rarer

For the past 70 years, U.S. labor law has exhibited such a profound bias in favor of union monopoly, and so thoroughly reinforced union officials' self-serving claims that monopoly unionism is the only kind of unionism worth talking about, that the very idea of members-only bargaining may seem odd to some Americans.

But at least since the collapse of the Soviet Empire more than a decade ago, members-only bargaining has been by far the predominant form of unionism on the world scene.

Even pro-forced unionism journalist Karin Chenoweth admitted in "A Hidden Agenda," a paper prepared for the AFL-CIO-funded League for Industrial Democracy nearly two decades ago, "France and Italy have such a [members-only] system, as do other European countries."

Since Ms. Chenoweth wrote her paper, at least two countries that formerly authorized "exclusive" bargaining (New Zealand and Australia) have switched to systems in which individual workers may bargain for themselves, and enjoyed above-average growth in production, productivity, and real wages and salaries since they did.

In fact, according to Dr. Charles Baird, the chairman of the Economics Department at California State University, Hayward, and an expert in comparative labor law, the U.S. and Canada are the only major countries in the world today that legally authorize "exclusive" bargaining.

Furthermore, as noted above, nothing in U.S. law would prevent union officials from engaging in members-only bargaining if that were what they wanted. The experience of dozens of other countries shows that it is a viable alternative.

Therefore, union officials' argument that state Right to Work laws allow union nonmembers a so-called "free ride," and unions have no choice but to bargain on such nonmembers' behalf, is simply phony.

Meh - if you still don't understand after reading this again you are obviously too far gone to understand more that what the Union has fed you. So back to the corruption in the original post I guess...

CkG
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
Well, CkG, your experts' opinions are just that, opinions. What you describe has not, to my knowledge, ever been tested under US law, nor are there any positive incentives for Unions to do so. Current practice does, however, fall well within the law, and is seen by Unions as being to their benefit, and to the benefit of their members and fee-payers. The scheme you describe may not withstand legal scrutiny, based on standard interpretation of the Wagner Act. The NLRB defines the work unit, and the Union deals with it from there. As I said earlier, your proposal would demand changes by the NLRB, and a response by Unions, not vice-versa. Unions play the cards as dealt by the NLRB.

We have enough problems with dues protesters the way it is. I've seen my own local defend such individual's jobs in ways absurd, because of lawsuit threats over improper representation. For a full member, a third hot drug test means you're on your own, we won't help you anymore, but protesters' claims are taken to arbitration, even though it's a total waste of time, effort and money. What you're describing opens up new avenues of attack. Non-members can claim that the Union failed to represent them in a manner that the law requires, and may well be successful given the actual wording of the act. Basically, you suggest that Unions take on additional liabilities while giving up assets. It'll never happen under current law.

As for the guys in Indiana, I hope they get their election- no problem with that. OTOH, it's extremely difficult to tell what's really going on based on the one report from an obviously biased source- HR teams have well-defined strategies for dealing with election scenarios, and card check scenarios are alot tougher to deal with in hostile unionization situations... So the RTW guys are looking for any and all instances that might put card checks into a bad light... And wages are still lower in RTW states, last time I checked...
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Meh - if you still don't understand after reading this again you are obviously too far gone to understand more that what the Union has fed you. So back to the corruption in the original post I guess... CkG

Hey CAD, since you Hate Unions so much you must have an in as to who and what was done with Jimmy Hoffa.


 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
We need to get rid of unions and legislation that impedes corporate profits. The masses have been uppity with their expectations. I say bring back the good old days of the British Industrial Revolution. Workers had it so good then, and the companies were so kind, just like the coal mining camps of yesteryear.

Insert Dean Scream here <Yeah>

This way we can get down to 25 cents an hour too and truly Globally compete with our Brethren slave labor in China and elsewhere too. That'll bring the jobs back here.


 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Well, CkG, your experts' opinions are just that, opinions. What you describe has not, to my knowledge, ever been tested under US law, nor are there any positive incentives for Unions to do so. Current practice does, however, fall well within the law, and is seen by Unions as being to their benefit, and to the benefit of their members and fee-payers. The scheme you describe may not withstand legal scrutiny, based on standard interpretation of the Wagner Act. The NLRB defines the work unit, and the Union deals with it from there. As I said earlier, your proposal would demand changes by the NLRB, and a response by Unions, not vice-versa. Unions play the cards as dealt by the NLRB.

We have enough problems with dues protesters the way it is. I've seen my own local defend such individual's jobs in ways absurd, because of lawsuit threats over improper representation. For a full member, a third hot drug test means you're on your own, we won't help you anymore, but protesters' claims are taken to arbitration, even though it's a total waste of time, effort and money. What you're describing opens up new avenues of attack. Non-members can claim that the Union failed to represent them in a manner that the law requires, and may well be successful given the actual wording of the act. Basically, you suggest that Unions take on additional liabilities while giving up assets. It'll never happen under current law.

As for the guys in Indiana, I hope they get their election- no problem with that. OTOH, it's extremely difficult to tell what's really going on based on the one report from an obviously biased source- HR teams have well-defined strategies for dealing with election scenarios, and card check scenarios are alot tougher to deal with in hostile unionization situations... So the RTW guys are looking for any and all instances that might put card checks into a bad light... And wages are still lower in RTW states, last time I checked...

Still wrong. What you keep talking about is what happens once a "unit" if formed. There is NOTHING that "FORCES"(like you keep claiming) a union to have an "Exclusive" type agreement(meaning unit agreement) but like that PRO-UNION expert has stated - there is nothing stopping unions from changing their unit form to "member-only" or creating it as a "member-only" unit from the beginning. The only thing stopping them was their greed for dues and power in numbers.
So Jhhhn - ready to admit there is NO law or case law (from the FEDS or otherwise) "FORCING" a union to be an "exclusive" unit?
Exactly as I have said from the start. The argument about Unions being "forced" is BS.
Oh, and remember that the US and Canada are the only countries that allow "exclusive" style unions. Europe has seen many positives from having member-only unions where as here we've only seen decline for Unions and Union productivity.
Well, as to the Indiana issue - seems to me that the end run around the vote is a pretty serious issue in regards to "strong arm" tactics. I hope these workers who signed the petition(before the "election"
rolleye.gif
) don't just roll over for this union.

CkG
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
OK, CkG, one last time. Explain to me how Section 9, subsection159(b) can mean anything other than what it says-

" (b) [Determination of bargaining unit by Board] The Board shall decide in each case whether, in order to assure to employees the fullest freedom in exercising the rights guaranteed by this Act [subchapter], the unit appropriate for the purposes of collective bargaining shall be the employer unit, craft unit, plant unit, or subdivision thereof: Provided, That the Board shall not (1) decide that any unit is appropriate for such purposes

[[Page 264]]

if such unit includes both professional employees and employees who are not professional employees unless a majority of such professional employees vote for inclusion in such unit; or (2) decide that any craft unit is inappropriate for such purposes on the ground that a different unit has been established by a prior Board determination, unless a majority of the employees in the proposed craft unit votes against separate representation or (3) decide that any unit is appropriate for such purposes if it includes, together with other employees, any individual employed as a guard to enforce against employees and other persons rules to protect property of the employer or to protect the safety of persons on the employer's premises; but no labor organization shall be certified as the representative of employees in a bargaining unit of guards if such organization admits to membership, or is affiliated directly or indirectly with an organization which admits to membership, employees other than guards."

"[Determination of bargaining unit by Board] The Board shall decide" Means that, uhh, The NLRB, The Board, shall make any and all determinations as to what constitutes a work unit, not the Union. As I've pointed out, repeatedly, neither you nor your experts have addressed this directly- You merely make assertions to the contrary. I've pointed out that the SCOTUS upheld the commonly held definition in 1937 and 1944, with links, yet you seem to be able to ignore that, as well.

I've even allowed that Unions might be able to approach the Board with a proposition such as you describe, but clearly have no reason to do so, many reasons not to do so, and that such a change would ultimately reside with the Board, the NLRB.

You confuse and obfuscate the clear lines of authority delineated in the Law itself and in the decisions of the SCOTUS- "The Board will decide" pretty much means that "The Board will decide", and you dance around that 'til hell freezes over- it'll still mean that "The board will decide".

At this juncture, it seems clear to me, and probably to anybody else following this thread, that zealotry is more important to you than actually making sense, at all, and that winning is your holy grail and basic raison de' etre. You'd argue that day is night under a blazing sun in the middle of Death Valley, until you collapsed form heatstroke, if it suited your ideological agenda. More's the pity- true zealots reveal an utterly irrational basis of belief when pushed to the limit, and you're there...

 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
OK, CkG, one last time. Explain to me how Section 9, subsection159(b) can mean anything other than what it says-

" (b) [Determination of bargaining unit by Board] The Board shall decide in each case whether, in order to assure to employees the fullest freedom in exercising the rights guaranteed by this Act [subchapter], the unit appropriate for the purposes of collective bargaining shall be the employer unit, craft unit, plant unit, or subdivision thereof: Provided, That the Board shall not (1) decide that any unit is appropriate for such purposes

[[Page 264]]

if such unit includes both professional employees and employees who are not professional employees unless a majority of such professional employees vote for inclusion in such unit; or (2) decide that any craft unit is inappropriate for such purposes on the ground that a different unit has been established by a prior Board determination, unless a majority of the employees in the proposed craft unit votes against separate representation or (3) decide that any unit is appropriate for such purposes if it includes, together with other employees, any individual employed as a guard to enforce against employees and other persons rules to protect property of the employer or to protect the safety of persons on the employer's premises; but no labor organization shall be certified as the representative of employees in a bargaining unit of guards if such organization admits to membership, or is affiliated directly or indirectly with an organization which admits to membership, employees other than guards."

"[Determination of bargaining unit by Board] The Board shall decide" Means that, uhh, The NLRB, The Board, shall make any and all determinations as to what constitutes a work unit, not the Union. As I've pointed out, repeatedly, neither you nor your experts have addressed this directly- You merely make assertions to the contrary. I've pointed out that the SCOTUS upheld the commonly held definition in 1937 and 1944, with links, yet you seem to be able to ignore that, as well.

I've even allowed that Unions might be able to approach the Board with a proposition such as you describe, but clearly have no reason to do so, many reasons not to do so, and that such a change would ultimately reside with the Board, the NLRB.

You confuse and obfuscate the clear lines of authority delineated in the Law itself and in the decisions of the SCOTUS- "The Board will decide" pretty much means that "The Board will decide", and you dance around that 'til hell freezes over- it'll still mean that "The board will decide".

At this juncture, it seems clear to me, and probably to anybody else following this thread, that zealotry is more important to you than actually making sense, at all, and that winning is your holy grail and basic raison de' etre. You'd argue that day is night under a blazing sun in the middle of Death Valley, until you collapsed form heatstroke, if it suited your ideological agenda. More's the pity- true zealots reveal an utterly irrational basis of belief when pushed to the limit, and you're there...

Nope - you still don't seem to understand. I'll leave you to wallow in your ignorance now since you think Unions are FORCED to be exclusive and can't be "member-only".:) You really need to lay off the union pipe - your union boss isn't reading your posts here so I'm not sure why you think you have spout their propaganda. But anyway - like I said - I'll let you wallow in your ignorance.:D

Now back to the Union corruption...shall I post a bit more or is the OP enough?;)

CkG
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
OK, just a question to folks in the peanut gallery...

Do you believe, as Jhhhn does, that Unions are FORCED to be "exclusive bargaining" or do people understand the argument I've put forward that refutes his claims?
Do you think that a Union can't be formed in a "member-only" and sometimes a "minority" fashion?

Just curious since people seem to have shied away because pf the diversionary rhetoric.:)

CkG