Unexpected Consequences: Min Wage Hike Fallout

[fskimospy]

Yes. You nailed his estimated yearly maximum too.

Shocked, right? Not everyone needs more. Our apartment is low quality but he doesn't live in bum-fu*k either. It's literally right off the Interstate and less than 20 minutes from the the airport (Atlanta proper). That probably gives a bit too much away about exactly where I live, but I don't really care.

To be honest I'm kind of impressed by his frugality. My mortgage and maintenance alone is close to twice that.

I mean I know Georgia is a cheap place to live, but still that's impressive. After rent, phone bill, and car payment/insurance/gas he must have about $100/week to live on.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

To be honest I'm kind of impressed by his frugality. My mortgage and maintenance alone is close to twice that.

I mean I know Georgia is a cheap place to live, but still that's impressive. After rent, phone bill, and car payment/insurance/gas he must have about $100/week to live on.

He said ROOMMATE.

Most people on welfare/food stamps expect a lavish 1 or 2 bedroom apartment all to themselves.

$800-$1400 for a 1 Bedoom?

Or $900 - $1600 split in two. Which do you think is more intelligent for someone that is struggling with money? Oh wait, I'm sorry, you are ENTITLED to a private home with a private living room with a private kitchen. My bad.

Again - most people here shared an apartment in college. Why is it soooooooooo unacceptable in adult lives when times are tough with money as well?

 

[werepossum]

This reveals another problem when talking about the minimum wage; you can live comfortably on $15,000 a year in Atlanta, but in San Francisco or New York, $15,000 a year is going to leave you homeless. The cost of living is not a static thing, and people from places with low cost of living have trouble understanding why people in the Bay Area are spending $40,000 a year on rent. The cost of living is ultimately the driving factor behind any discussion about minimum wage, but if we're coming from completely different standards of what the cost of living is, it's going to be hard to reach any sort of consensus.

This is true, which is why it's also silly to try to set one minimum wage statewide, let alone nationwide. Federal minimum wage should be seen not as some societal standard but as an absolute floor, with many states and virtually all major cities adopting their own higher wage standards. Even this isn't foolproof; as seen with the San Francisco catering debacle, high minimum wages can simply force businesses out of town or, when local minimums are set county-wide, out of the county. Neighboring areas have little incentive to match either, since businesses forced out of the city or county are businesses they would not otherwise have. It's also worth pointing out that moving out to cheaper housing usually also means moving beyond reliable public transportation and easy carpooling, which increases transportation costs and makes the poor more vulnerable. There are no easy fixes for lack of marketable job skills.

 

[CZroe]

This reveals another problem when talking about the minimum wage; you can live comfortably on $15,000 a year in Atlanta, but in San Francisco or New York, $15,000 a year is going to leave you homeless. The cost of living is not a static thing, and people from places with low cost of living have trouble understanding why people in the Bay Area are spending $40,000 a year on rent. The cost of living is ultimately the driving factor behind any discussion about minimum wage, but if we're coming from completely different standards of what the cost of living is, it's going to be hard to reach any sort of consensus.

...and, as we keep explaining, even there you cannot take the cost of living within the city and imply that everyone working there needs to live downtown and can't commute from the 'burbs. I specifically used San Francisco in my example about caterers.

 

[fskimospy]

He said ROOMMATE.

Most people on welfare/food stamps expect a lavish 1 or 2 bedroom apartment all to themselves.

$800-$1400 for a 1 Bedoom?

Or $900 - $1600 split in two. Which do you think is more intelligent for someone that is struggling with money? Oh wait, I'm sorry, you are ENTITLED to a private home with a private living room with a private kitchen. My bad.

Again - most people here shared an apartment in college. Why is it soooooooooo unacceptable in adult lives when times are tough with money as well?

What the hell are you babbling about?

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

What the hell are you babbling about?

Must be too hard for a liberal to understand conceptually.

I know it's hard baby... that whole "living with other people" thing. It can be tough to grasp.

there there....

 

[fskimospy]

This is true, which is why it's also silly to try to set one minimum wage statewide, let alone nationwide. Federal minimum wage should be seen not as some societal standard but as an absolute floor, with many states and virtually all major cities adopting their own higher wage standards. Even this isn't foolproof; as seen with the San Francisco catering debacle, high minimum wages can simply force businesses out of town or, when local minimums are set county-wide, out of the county. Neighboring areas have little incentive to match either, since businesses forced out of the city or county are businesses they would not otherwise have. It's also worth pointing out that moving out to cheaper housing usually also means moving beyond reliable public transportation and easy carpooling, which increases transportation costs and makes the poor more vulnerable. There are no easy fixes for lack of marketable job skills.

While there are of course exceptions (like catering companies!) the majority of businesses that are affected by minimum wage laws tend to be low end, commodity service jobs. (Fast food, retail, etc). Those can't be moved easily because their location matters a lot. The clothing stores and food places aren't all going to move out of town to avoid paying minimum wage because few people are going to drive an extra 30 minutes to get a cheeseburger.

 

[fskimospy]

Must be too hard for a liberal to understand conceptually.

I know it's hard baby... that whole "living with other people" thing. It can be tough to grasp.

there there....

No really, I genuinely have no clue what that post was about. Can you explain what you were trying to say?

Serious question.

 

[werepossum]

He said ROOMMATE.

Most people on welfare/food stamps expect a lavish 1 or 2 bedroom apartment all to themselves.

$800-$1400 for a 1 Bedoom?

Or $900 - $1600 split in two. Which do you think is more intelligent for someone that is struggling with money? Oh wait, I'm sorry, you are ENTITLED to a private home with a private living room with a private kitchen. My bad.

Again - most people here shared an apartment in college. Why is it soooooooooo unacceptable in adult lives when times are tough with money as well?

I agree in principle, but it's worth pointing out that many poor people also have children which makes it difficult to share an apartment or house with others, except possibly for family.

In the 80s I worked with a guy who after rent, alimony and child support had exactly $20 per week. He refused to work any overtime because his wife got 80% of any overtime. Consequently his rent was $100/month to sleep on a buddy's couch and he drove an old chopped Honda or if weather was really really bad, drove a 50s pickup. His financial situation was the result of a divorce settlement obtained while working as a steamfitter for Combustion ($20+/hour) and working as a small company welder ($8/hour) while refusing to go back to court. Moral: People do stupid shit for many different reasons, including having children they really can't afford.

 

[CZroe]

To be honest I'm kind of impressed by his frugality. My mortgage and maintenance alone is close to twice that.



I mean I know Georgia is a cheap place to live, but still that's impressive. After rent, phone bill, and car payment/insurance/gas he must have about $100/week to live on.

Well, he's owned his car since college and he can't afford a new driver's door after an accident but buying the latest flagship Android phone every two years and going on vacation to New York and Thailand with his girlfriend last month and eating Zazby's almost every day is not my idea of "frugal."

He scrimps and scrapes in some areas (no cable/sat TV; plays my Wii U/3DS games), but he still has enough for his own Netflix account along with his half of the Internet, water, and power bills. He even rents Blu-rays from Redbox occasionally and plays them from his early 2013 gaming PC (SLI GTX 670 and pre-Haswell Core i7) connected to his 48" TV he bought last summer... when he isn't playing Borderlands 2. Meanwhile, I play retro games on a tiny CRT television in the living room. He really is more comfortable.

 

[werepossum]

While there are of course exceptions (like catering companies!) the majority of businesses that are affected by minimum wage laws tend to be low end, commodity service jobs. (Fast food, retail, etc). Those can't be moved easily because their location matters a lot. The clothing stores and food places aren't all going to move out of town to avoid paying minimum wage because few people are going to drive an extra 30 minutes to get a cheeseburger.

Food maybe, but places like clothing stores also compete with those businesses not affected by city-wide minimum wage hikes. When their expenses are increased compared to their competitors, they may have no options but to move or close up. Maybe that doesn't matter to you as long as they don't all close up, but it certain matters to those people who have invested their lives into their businesses.

No really, I genuinely have no clue what that post was about. Can you explain what you were trying to say?

Serious question.

He's saying that no one has an inherent right to their own apartment at other people's expense and therefore no inherent right to a minimum wage sufficient to maintain a home without someone sharing expenses.

 

[fskimospy]

Well, he's owned his car since college and he can't afford a new driver's door after an accident but buying the latest flagship Android phone every two years and going on vacation to New York and Thailand with his girlfriend last month and eating Zazby's almost every day is not my idea of "frugal."

He scrimps and scrapes in some areas (no cable/sat TV; plays my Wii U/3DS games), but he still has enough for his own Netflix account along with his half of the Internet, water, and power bills. He even rents Blu-rays from Redbox occasionally and plays them from his early 2013 gaming PC (SLI GTX 670 and pre-Haswell Core i7) connected to his 48" TV he bought last summer... when he isn't playing Borderlands 2. Meanwhile, I play retro games on a tiny CRT television in the living room. He really is more comfortable.

My strong suspicion is that he's running up debts to do those things.

 

[CZroe]

My strong suspicion is that he's running up debts to do those things.

My understanding is that he doesn't have a credit card because college left him with too much subsidized student loan debt. He can take almost forever to pay it but that debt load and lack of additional credit history excludes him from getting good offers. His parents bought him the car while he was still in school, so that doesn't help either.

 

[fskimospy]

Food maybe, but places like clothing stores also compete with those businesses not affected by city-wide minimum wage hikes. When their expenses are increased compared to their competitors, they may have no options but to move or close up. Maybe that doesn't matter to you as long as they don't all close up, but it certain matters to those people who have invested their lives into their businesses.

What matters to me or doesn't matter to me is irrelevant here. I'm simply informing you of the fact that a large portion of the businesses affected by minimum wage hikes aren't mobile, and the whole 'displaced business' thing is a lot less impactful than you appear to think it is.

He's saying that no one has an inherent right to their own apartment at other people's expense and therefore no inherent right to a minimum wage sufficient to maintain a home without someone sharing expenses.

What housing program in Seattle do you think provides that sort of benefit? The only one that really applies that I could think of is Section 8, and that subsidizes a portion of your rent, not the whole thing. In many (most?) cases it's not enough to have your own place as a single guy.

 

[dank69]

My strong suspicion is that he's running up debts to do those things.

Probably gets money from his parents or something.

 

[fskimospy]

My understanding is that he doesn't have a credit card because college left him with too much subsidized student loan debt. He can take almost forever to pay it but that debt load and lack of additional credit history excludes him from getting good offers. His parents bought him the car while he was still in school, so that doesn't help either.

Well I clearly don't know the guy, but I can't imagine how he's paying for a trip to NYC or Thailand on the money he's making without going into debt or, as dank mentioned, getting money from other people. (which would of course mean he wasn't actually living on $15k)

 

[CZroe]

Probably gets money from his parents or something.

Not that I can tell. Like me, he's a religious user of SlickDeals. He asked for my help changing his oil the day before yesterday because he got a good deal on the oil and didn't want to pay more elsewhere. He also asked me to sell his sealed copy of Conker's Bad Fur Day (after he saw mine go for almost $300) so he'd have some extra spending money on his trip. It's clear that his finances are limited, but not oppressively so.

I actually gave him that copy of Conker for Christmas over 12 years ago after I got it on clearance (either $7.50 or $10), so I just unwittingly subsidized his lifestyle!

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

No really, I genuinely have no clue what that post was about. Can you explain what you were trying to say?

Serious question.

CZroe's original post (that you commented on, and I replied to) - was referencing his "Friend". His friend, in which he stated was a ROOMMATE. Not some random guy he knows living in his own place obviously.

 

[CZroe]

I'm still shocked to find out that he's been on food stamps all this time. We split all expenses right down the middle and he's never had trouble paying. I do wonder if his girlfriend being an exchange student from Thailand somehow helped with the travel expenses, but I don't know of any student exchange programs that cover or subsidize tag-a-longs.

 

[fskimospy]

CZroe's original post (that you commented on, and I replied to) - was referencing his "Friend". His friend, in which he stated was a ROOMMATE. Not some random guy he knows living in his own place obviously.

So? Plenty of people on rental assistance (most, probably) have shared living arrangements.

 

[Subyman]

I recently found out that my roommate gets food stamps. You just described him. He's in his 20s after graduating from a music school. He works a few short hours for the school system teaching and tutoring kids in percussion instruments. I've known him almost his entire life. He's comfortable and has no incentive to stop thanks to government assistance for a youthful male. Early this year he bought the latest Galaxy S phone (S5) when he broke his previous Galaxy S phone that was also the latest when he bought it (SIII). He has an almost identical car to mine (2009 automatic compared to my 2011 manual) and an almost identical lifestyle and almost identical expenses all without having to work nearly as much. I'd say that he is more than comfortable. That person exists.

Food stamps are not what I would call "raking in government benefits" as I mentioned.

He is likely still on his parent's phone plan and his car was likely either a hand-me-down from the family or his parents helped him OR its an auto credit type thing.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

So? Plenty of people on rental assistance (most, probably) have shared living arrangements.

[Citation Needed]


Calling bullshit.

And no, anything revolving around living with family doesn't count as "Shared living arrangements". We are talking people that are actively choosing to live with roommates for the sake of saving money to avoid the high rental costs of living with just yourself.

 

[fskimospy]

[Citation Needed]

Calling bullshit.

And no, anything revolving around living with family doesn't count as "Shared living arrangements". We are talking people that are actively choosing to live with roommates for the sake of saving money to avoid the high rental costs of living with just yourself.

Ahhhh, so it doesn't count so long as you make up new conditions. You're the one that butted into a discussion about a single man and said that most people on welfare expect a 1-2 bedroom all to themselves. Oops?

All you've done is sling fact-free ranting and then you try to ask other people for citations? Where have you backed up a single thing you've said?

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Ahhhh, so it doesn't count so long as you make up new conditions. You're the one that butted into a discussion about a single man and said that most people on welfare expect a 1-2 bedroom all to themselves. Oops?

All you've done is sling fact-free ranting and then you try to ask other people for citations? Where have you backed up a single thing you've said?

I said from the start ROOMMATES. As in multiple people living in an apartment and splitting the costs.

Living with your family is (often times) the equivalency to a child living under his parents. Not paying rent is not living on your own, which isn't part of the discussion.

The whole question is "Can you live on your own while on low wages". Well no shit if you live with family. Your expenses are all taken care of.

 

[CZroe]

Food stamps are not what I would call "raking in government benefits" as I mentioned.

He is likely still on his parent's phone plan and his car was likely either a hand-me-down from the family or his parents helped him OR its an auto credit type thing.

Maybe not, but there are still the heavily subsidized student loans. I helped him transfer his phone's billing responsibility after he left college so he could maintain his Unlimited Data with Verizon... which makes me wonder if he gave up his Unlimited data to upgrade (doubt he could afford to buy it out-right without a carrier subsidy).

I never implied that he was paying on the car because I know he isn't. The beater Honda they sent him off to school with died and they got him the used Corolla half-way through, though it was a surprisingly late model for a used car. On the other hand, I am still paying on my Corolla that's cheaper in every way (manual locks, windows, transmission, etc). They look almost identical but he has pinstripes, window tinting, a little antenna nub on the top, etc. if it weren't for the smashed-in driver's door, I'd feel jealous.