Understanding Trumps appeal from a Guardian columnist:

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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I think this opinion is worth a read and accurate. From the content I think you can see why I agree.

I would only add that in my opinion, the author’s use of the term extrinsic equates to the gualities produced by self hate.

At any rate, the important point to me is that the cause of support for Trump is not an inevitable dark manifestation of some inner flaw in our nature but is inculcated by the needs to survive a brutal culture systemically created. Making life better for people generally, will actually change how people act.

This realization that the future can get better is what I would call the proper application of the term ‘woke’.

Have a care to whom you bring hope to, however, because those who have surrendered to hopelessness do not like being reminded of that fact. They harbor deep resentment.
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
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Making life better for people generally, will actually change how people act.
I agree that Trump would have less supporters if our social safety nets were stronger, if they worked for more people at more times.

Have a care to whom you bring hope to, however, because those who have surrendered to hopelessness do not like being reminded of that fact. They harbor deep resentment.
I value hope, but after 2020 you should count me among those without any.

An American people, who were supposed to vigorously condemn MAGA, instead produced a meek backlash that could not even provide the new President a basic majority. Two Senators held up any concept of governance, destroying the practical results of the election. The counter to MAGA, defeated in what should have been a resounding victory for sanity and moral clarity. Fact is, Americans are in short supply of either of those. It gets worse.

Two years later, I would gleam a deeper understanding of just how shallow our morality is. When full scale industrial war, for the purpose of land grab and Genocide, returned to Europe. Not only is our response weak, but our people are divided. As if we need to ask the question.... was Nazi Germany evil? Did we need to act to put an end to it? As an American I was raised to believe yes. That good people, who were moral, would always answer yes. But since 2022 our people's answer to this question, if not utterly weak, is instead divided. Many among us would side with Nazi Germany if it existed today. If not fighting for it, they would campaign for it.

The revelation of this, of humanity's true face.....
It is not resentment but resignation. For our Democracy, for our human rights. These fleeting things that our people would completely abandon if given the opportunity. So I circle back to that notion you quoted and you rejected. That humanity is deeply flawed. To me this is not a question, because I know it is. I witness the results of this flaw everywhere I look. In the horrors we force upon one another. In the weakness of those who should know better. I understand that they cannot do better, because of our intrinsic flaws. Our pathological need to divide and to delude ourselves.

At any rate, the important point to me is that the cause of support for Trump is not an inevitable dark manifestation of some inner flaw in our nature
In what way, is that darkness not inevitable?
With history as our guide, humanity as judged through its deeds, is quite evil.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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I agree that Trump would have less supporters if our social safety nets were stronger, if they worked for more people at more times.


I value hope, but after 2020 you should count me among those without any.

An American people, who were supposed to vigorously condemn MAGA, instead produced a meek backlash that could not even provide the new President a basic majority. Two Senators held up any concept of governance, destroying the practical results of the election. The counter to MAGA, defeated in what should have been a resounding victory for sanity and moral clarity. Fact is, Americans are in short supply of either of those. It gets worse.

Two years later, I would gleam a deeper understanding of just how shallow our morality is. When full scale industrial war, for the purpose of land grab and Genocide, returned to Europe. Not only is our response weak, but our people are divided. As if we need to ask the question.... was Nazi Germany evil? Did we need to act to put an end to it? As an American I was raised to believe yes. That good people, who were moral, would always answer yes. But since 2022 our people's answer to this question, if not utterly weak, is instead divided. Many among us would side with Nazi Germany if it existed today. If not fighting for it, they would campaign for it.

The revelation of this, of humanity's true face.....
It is not resentment but resignation. For our Democracy, for our human rights. These fleeting things that our people would completely abandon if given the opportunity. So I circle back to that notion you quoted and you rejected. That humanity is deeply flawed. To me this is not a question, because I know it is. I witness the results of this flaw everywhere I look. In the horrors we force upon one another. In the weakness of those who should know better. I understand that they cannot do better, because of our intrinsic flaws. Our pathological need to divide and to delude ourselves.


In what way, is that darkness not inevitable?
With history as our guide, humanity as judged through its deeds, is quite evil.
I think I have said to you before that you look at people how they are, their conditioned state, not how we can be. A saying expresses this idea, I think: Too many camel bones and people forget what a real camel looks like. It is also why Diogenes carried a lantern in broad daylight looking for a real man. The problem is that we are conditioned and do not really know what real is.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
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I think this opinion is worth a read and accurate. From the content I think you can see why I agree.

I would only add that in my opinion, the author’s use of the term extrinsic equates to the gualities produced by self hate.

At any rate, the important point to me is that the cause of support for Trump is not an inevitable dark manifestation of some inner flaw in our nature but is inculcated by the needs to survive a brutal culture systemically created. Making life better for people generally, will actually change how people act.

This realization that the future can get better is what I would call the proper application of the term ‘woke’.

Have a care to whom you bring hope to, however, because those who have surrendered to hopelessness do not like being reminded of that fact. They harbor deep resentment.
Great article. The guy hit the nail (Trump) squarely on the head.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
39,288
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I think this opinion is worth a read and accurate. From the content I think you can see why I agree.

I would only add that in my opinion, the author’s use of the term extrinsic equates to the gualities produced by self hate.

At any rate, the important point to me is that the cause of support for Trump is not an inevitable dark manifestation of some inner flaw in our nature but is inculcated by the needs to survive a brutal culture systemically created. Making life better for people generally, will actually change how people act.

This realization that the future can get better is what I would call the proper application of the term ‘woke’.

Have a care to whom you bring hope to, however, because those who have surrendered to hopelessness do not like being reminded of that fact. They harbor deep resentment.
Eye opening article. Thanks Moonie

I would add in one more factor. Where did Trump make his political bones? Hyping the racist trope of birtherism. When Obama was elected overt racism went in the closet. It became unfashionable. Trump brought it back out. Gave all those people permission to hate again.
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
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This article does place into words, some notions that I have tried to express since 2016.

It builds a case for them, for our people's pursuit of them. These extrinsic values. Driven by insecurities. I spoke of our people's deep pain and insecurity. It does fuel Conservatism. I see it in my MAGA frothing relatives who were incapable of seeing the 2008 recession for what it was. Or how stimulus would help pave the way out. To them, Reaganism still reigned where Government spending and taxes were an evil to be defeated. No good could come of it. Bootstraps bootstraps bootstraps.

Ask them why they are poor. The answer? Taxes.
It is incredibly short sighted and dim whited, but it is all they have. Beliefs to cling to irregardless of reality. Or studies and examples to the contrary. It is their faith, the armor of their identities, their core.

Modern media caters to this alt-reality and fans the flames of discontent. You can see it with the current economy. Sure inflation sucked, but it is under control now and Biden had nothing to do with it anyway. They do not care, surely Trump is the messiah that will save them from Biden's economy. The timing of the Pandemic's crunch couldn't have come at a worse time for allowing propagandists to hold the winner of the 2020 election accountable for it.

There is huge economic appeal derived from fantasies borne of these extrinsic values. Of an American system that brutalizes the working class, holding many in Stockholm syndrome. Trump is the abuser they will keep going back to.
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
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a strong set of extrinsic values often develops as a result of insecurity and unfulfilled needs. These extrinsic values then generate further insecurity and unfulfilled needs.
Not really surprising. Voting against your own interests allows people who do not have your interests in mind to take power and solidify it. They then act against your interests, and it spirals downwards from there.

Edit: And on the flip side, this is why "wokeness" is so "dangerous" - because it challenges the existing power structures and extrinsic value system
 
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pete6032

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Dec 3, 2010
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I don't remember where I read this comment but someone surmised once that the reason Trump's approval went up after his indictments was that a large number of people who support him have had their own legal problems (child support, tax evasion, loan default) and to see Trump be tried for financial crimes and claim he is a victim is like a cathartic experience for those people so they feel even closer to him now.
 

iRONic

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Jan 28, 2006
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They want to feel real close to him…?

Join him in FPMITAP and they can feel even closer to him! The closerest! Bigly closer!
 
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Moonbeam

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I don't remember where I read this comment but someone surmised once that the reason Trump's approval went up after his indictments was that a large number of people who support him have had their own legal problems (child support, tax evasion, loan default) and to see Trump be tried for financial crimes and claim he is a victim is like a cathartic experience for those people so they feel even closer to him now.
In a capitalist system money is everything including how valuable you can imagine yourself and others will see you as being. The great putdown in a capitalist society is that you are worthless as a human being if you are poor. The result is that parents who wish their children to succeed will demand of then competitive behavior and put them down if they fail. What this does is churn out a whole segment of society who have been discouraged by life by being told they are failures and they act out those charges on society to teach it a lesson for treating them so badly. This means in turn that a large portion of society has accepted their fate as victims and is looking to get even. Supporting a sum bag like Trump helps them achieve this aim.

More belittlement of their character will only produce more resentment. These people need help that is not obvious to them. Fix the insecurities that children grow up with and the resulting adults will care more about progress rather than getting even. My opinion, of course.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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Ask the question who do you think is the more accomplished person...

Martin Luther King Jr.
Elon Musk

I bet the results are

Dems 90% King
Pubs 90% Musk

Direct link to the article.