Underpowered PSU...Will it Hurt Anything?

[SerpentRoyal]

Originally posted by: Yellowbeard

Originally posted by: SerpentRoyal
A well-built 500 watts PSU shouldn't cost more than $30 to manufacture. We're talking about 100% Japanese electrolytic caps and a quality cooling fan. Knock-off another $3-$5 max for a 380 watter.

Just curious, how did you come up with this number of $30?

Straight from the bean counter @ Seasonic. I also know how much Frys paid for their better quality 500 watters. Are you alluding that $30 is too high? Have you priced the cost of components per lot of 1000? A very high volume count will result in lower unit price.

You work for Corsair and you don't even know the cost of your products?

 

[dclive]

Originally posted by: SerpentRoyal
You work for Corsair and you don't even know the cost of your products?

You think they make that information public to their employees? Curious.

 

[SerpentRoyal]

Originally posted by: dclive

Originally posted by: SerpentRoyal
You work for Corsair and you don't even know the cost of your products?

You think they make that information public to their employees? Curious.

I make a point to know the cost of Inconel when I design high-performance turbine engine. A good outfit will have good communication between the bean counters, engineers, production staffs, and sale/support staffs. That's the easiest way to stay ahead of the competitors. A few pennies saved could amount to big bucks when working with a very large order.

 

[dclive]

Does everyone at Inconel know the price of all of their products?

 

[SerpentRoyal]

I would expect those people dealing with customers and suppliers to be aware of the average spot price of 625, 718, 903, etc....

 

[Yellowbeard]

You work for Corsair and you don't even know the cost of your products?

Nah, I guess I could find out if I wanted but that is information I don't need. It's funny how distorted and now pointless this thread has become. Cheap PSUs STILL suck and underpowered PSUs do have their risks. And, that is about the only thing posted recently that applies to the OPs post. This has actually become amusing and I don't need scientific data or a Harvard study to prove that... :laugh:.

 

[tomoyo]

Originally posted by: Yellowbeard

The problem that continues, even for corsair and other makers...is nobody really puts out many high quality 300-400w psu's. Almost everything goes into the 500-750 range these days. The vx450 is still kind of overkill...but with how marketing is, It's understandable why corsair doesn't want to try to do anything lower.

Well, it's not just marketing. I don't sit in on the decision making for PSUs but, the VX series, the 450 in particular is a solid unit. It's quiet enough for use in an HTPC, and has plenty of power for any single system whether it is a Celeron based system with onboard video on the MOBO all the way up to a Quad 6850 and ATI 2900 XTX or whatever their top card is.

This makes sense from a manufacturing standpoint for several reasons. We don't have to build 30 different models to make every single niche user happy.

Also, there is a price point on the manufacturing end ( and no, I don't know what it is ) but, a PSU is going to cost a bare minimum of "X" amount of dollars to make. So, for example, a 300w PSU for example may cost as much to make as a 400w PSU due to this minimum cost. So, why not build a 400w unit as this covers a larger customer base?

This really isn't a problem per se. I can't understand why this is such a big deal to argue over. Why does Detroit kick out cars that can go 120mph when the speed limits around the nation are about 1/2 that? Why do I have a 3000' sqare house and there is only 3 of us? Why did you get your chocolate in my peanut butter? Who cares. Cheap PSUs still suck and underpowered PSUs do have their risks.

Hey I'm not blaming you guys at all. Like I said it's fully understood the reasons behind it. Sadly it does mean you guys can't hit lower price points like the "magic" $50. Of course, quality does cost money, so we'll just have to try to convince more people to pony up $70 for the VX450.

 

[SerpentRoyal]

It doesn't get much cheaper than those FREE AR Ultra X-Finity 500s. The neighbor's rig has a 7900 EVGA GPU and one Maxtor 160GB HDD. Per the Maxtor's diagnostic software and the BIOS, this PC has logged over 6800 hours with the el cheapo X-Finity 500. PSU is still whisper quiet at 1/2 meter.

 

[SparkyJJO]

X-finity PSUs aren't bad units. Maybe not as high quality as Seasonic for example but they are still half decent so I'm not surprised that it works.

And I've seen systems with true junk PSUs still running fine after years. Does that make it a good thing? No. Just that guy was lucky. So just because one or two cheapos have run fine for a long time doesn't mean its all A-OK.

If you insist that cheap crap PSUs are fine, then go ahead and use them. That's your risk to take. Just don't suggest others do the same because your powmax or whatever happened to last 6 months.

 

[tomoyo]

Originally posted by: SparkyJJO
X-finity PSUs aren't bad units. Maybe not as high quality as Seasonic for example but they are still half decent so I'm not surprised that it works.

And I've seen systems with true junk PSUs still running fine after years. Does that make it a good thing? No. Just that guy was lucky. So just because one or two cheapos have run fine for a long time doesn't mean its all A-OK.

If you insist that cheap crap PSUs are fine, then go ahead and use them. That's your risk to take. Just don't suggest others do the same because your powmax or whatever happened to last 6 months.

I'm not even sure I'd say not bad. Mediocre might be the word imho. They're wintech oem, and wintech isn't exactly a good maker. I'd trust it only with low power systems.

 

[SparkyJJO]

http://jonnyguru.com/review_details.php?id=34

JonnyGURU gives the xfinity a 7.5 which isn't a bad score. That is why I said "half decent"

 

[Bosconian]

Originally posted by: SparkyJJO
http://jonnyguru.com/review_details.php?id=34

JonnyGURU gives the xfinity a 7.5 which isn't a bad score. That is why I said "half decent"

A year and a half ago, yeah. I think a lot's changed since then.

 

[ArchAngel777]

Originally posted by: Bosconian

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777

My actual wattage from the AC is 280ish at GFX and CPU Load

I hear you, but there's been more than a couple examples out there showing how the APFC circuit in power supplies "plays tricks" on measuring devices ranging from simple Kill-A-Watts to expensive clamping ammeters and that the results provided by said device is actually a number LOWER than actual DC output (putting the actual AC number a good 45% higher than it should be. The only real way to know how much power your PC needs is to measure it on the DC end.

After viewing the videos in Johny Guru's thread, I am forced to ask you where these other examples are. Because the ones that Johny Guru linked to (videos) it clearly did NOT show DC power output surpassing what the meter on the AC was reporting. It did however show very high efficiency, which I would agree is not very believable (95% & 97%)

So I would like links to information on DC reporting higher wattage than AC, because that is the part I have an extremely difficult time accepting. But hey, if the data is there, I will view it and assimilate it.

 

[MrOblivious]

http://img.photobucket.com/alb...e_c_t_r_e/100_2710.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/alb...e_c_t_r_e/100_1218.jpg

 

[dclive]

So what you're saying is the Kill-A-Watt device is accurate to about 2-5%?

 

[ArchAngel777]

Originally posted by: MrOblivious
http://img.photobucket.com/alb...e_c_t_r_e/100_2710.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/alb...e_c_t_r_e/100_1218.jpg

How often does your Kil-A-Watt device update the values? My wattage can fluctate from 185 to 225 in a millesecond on my device. Although I am not calling into question your particular example, but I could see someone taking the picture where the one value repoted high before the other device updated, thus showing the DC higher than AC, but not really being so, because they were taken at different time intervals.

 

[MrOblivious]

The top one is actually drawing 353w AC so its a bit farther off than that.

 

[dclive]

Where is the 353W AC # visible?

 

[MrOblivious]

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777

Originally posted by: MrOblivious
http://img.photobucket.com/alb...e_c_t_r_e/100_2710.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/alb...e_c_t_r_e/100_1218.jpg

How often does your Kil-A-Watt device update the values? My wattage can fluctate from 185 to 225 in a millesecond on my device. Although I am not calling into question your particular example, but I could see someone taking the picture where the one value repoted high before the other device updated, thus showing the DC higher than AC, but not really being so, because they were taken at different time intervals.

It is consistantly wrong with units it can not read the AC side properly. It is 353w AC for the top example so it is way beyond a fluctuation.

 

[MrOblivious]

Originally posted by: dclive
Where is the 353W AC # visible?

When the brand cycles it goes to watts after the current.

 

[ArchAngel777]

Originally posted by: dclive
So what you're saying is the Kill-A-Watt device is accurate to about 2-5%?

Well, technically not, because the conversion from AC to DC is a good scenario should be 15%. So in that particular instance, the Kil-A-Watt should be 20% higher if both the DC and AC wattage were taken at the exact same time. Of course, that is impossible to do do anyway.

But, I would say, that the Kil-A-Watt device in actuall real world temps (edit oops! I meant watts!) would display very very close to the DC output wattage, not taking into account efficiency.

Anyway, It isn't that I like argueing about this for the sake of argueing, but so far a few things have not been proven that were stated.

1) That a Kil-A-Watt device AND a UPS use the same technology to gather AC wattage output.

So far no one has been able to prove they use the same technology.

2) I still haven't seen an example like the one stated in Bosconian that the AC reported wattage was 45% lower than it should be. In other words, the AC wattage ~25% less than the DC reported wattage.

I need to see this, preferably in a video so that I do not have to cast doubt upon someone taking selective pictures.

This also brings another question to mind. We could always bring the outside meter into the equation. Anyone willing to shut down eveything in their house except for one outlit with the computer? Take the meter reading outside after a time and get the values. See if they match your Kil-A-Watt device. I mean, one has the wonder, if your power company uses the same type of tests, then they would be losing money... Though I doubt the sofisticated instraments of the power companies would be fooled, it would be something to look into.

 

[ArchAngel777]

Originally posted by: MrOblivious

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777

Originally posted by: MrOblivious
http://img.photobucket.com/alb...e_c_t_r_e/100_2710.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/alb...e_c_t_r_e/100_1218.jpg

How often does your Kil-A-Watt device update the values? My wattage can fluctate from 185 to 225 in a millesecond on my device. Although I am not calling into question your particular example, but I could see someone taking the picture where the one value repoted high before the other device updated, thus showing the DC higher than AC, but not really being so, because they were taken at different time intervals.

It is consistantly wrong with units it can not read the AC side properly. It is 353w AC for the top example so it is way beyond a fluctuation.

Well, actually, it depends on how it is setup. If these devices are daisy chained on each other, that could explain why some of these are measuring far different than the others. Trying to report AC draw from another AC device that draws from another AC device... I am not sure if that would cause a problem or not. Be worth looking into.

Edit ** I hate post count whoring, so I am going to append to this one.

Johny tested a Quad Core CPU + 8800GTS SLI + Nforce 620? Right?

I believe he came up with 444 or some watts used. Now, according to my calculations, that does not seem to far off from what my UPS reports taking into account a lower power consuming chipset and one less video card.

That puts me right around the ~300 wattage range, possibly a few higher. But I don't see a problem with my UPS reporting that number. It seems pretty accurate to me. In other words, I doubt that my system is really gobbling up 450 watts of power.

What we are argueing about here for the most part is the extreme situations. Even if you can reproduce a situation where something is totally farked up, it isn't the norm. For the most part here, the Kil-A-Watt devices shown are decently accurate, enough to understand the PC power requirements.

And for the record, I don't have a problem with his mini review he did. His numbers are a tad higher than other review sites, but that could be due to the Nforce chipset. For AMD it was known to be a lot more power hungry, so I imagine it is the same for Intel based nForce boards, which probably puts his numbers higher.

As for the AMD FX-X2 or whatever the hell that is... THAT is pointless, because no one I know is sane enough to own that system and please forgive me if you happen to own that system... I mean no offense to your hardware

 

[MrOblivious]

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777

Originally posted by: MrOblivious

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777

Originally posted by: MrOblivious
http://img.photobucket.com/alb...e_c_t_r_e/100_2710.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/alb...e_c_t_r_e/100_1218.jpg

How often does your Kil-A-Watt device update the values? My wattage can fluctate from 185 to 225 in a millesecond on my device. Although I am not calling into question your particular example, but I could see someone taking the picture where the one value repoted high before the other device updated, thus showing the DC higher than AC, but not really being so, because they were taken at different time intervals.

It is consistantly wrong with units it can not read the AC side properly. It is 353w AC for the top example so it is way beyond a fluctuation.

Well, actually, it depends on how it is setup. If these devices are daisy chained on each other, that could explain why some of these are measuring far different than the others. Trying to report AC draw from another AC device that draws from anotehr AC device... I am not sure if that would cause a problem or not. Be worth looking into.

No there is no difference in daisy chaining or not. When this first came up I went through all the combinations. On units it is wrong on it is consistantly wrong. The difference is more on some units than on others though. And no I am not going to be unplugging everything in my house so I can compare to the mechanical meter on a whim. We already know that they can and are fallable and that they can be off by a good bit as it can be verified by a second meter.

As for the APC I am also not going to be buying a unit to promptly void the warranty and lose al my money to see how it does measure. If you would like to donate the unit I'll gut it though but I have never said the APC is off though I think Bosconian may indeed be correct that it can be fooled.

 

[ArchAngel777]

Originally posted by: MrOblivious

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777

Originally posted by: MrOblivious

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777

Originally posted by: MrOblivious
http://img.photobucket.com/alb...e_c_t_r_e/100_2710.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/alb...e_c_t_r_e/100_1218.jpg

How often does your Kil-A-Watt device update the values? My wattage can fluctate from 185 to 225 in a millesecond on my device. Although I am not calling into question your particular example, but I could see someone taking the picture where the one value repoted high before the other device updated, thus showing the DC higher than AC, but not really being so, because they were taken at different time intervals.

It is consistantly wrong with units it can not read the AC side properly. It is 353w AC for the top example so it is way beyond a fluctuation.

Well, actually, it depends on how it is setup. If these devices are daisy chained on each other, that could explain why some of these are measuring far different than the others. Trying to report AC draw from another AC device that draws from anotehr AC device... I am not sure if that would cause a problem or not. Be worth looking into.

No there is no difference in daisy chaining or not. When this first came up I went through all the combinations. On units it is wrong on it is consistantly wrong. The difference is more on some units than on others though. And no I am not going to be unplugging everything in my house so I can compare to the mechanical meter on a whim. We already know that they can and are fallable and that they can be off by a good bit as it can be verified by a second meter.

As for the APC I am also not going to be buying a unit to promptly void the warranty and lose al my money to see how it does measure. If you would like to donate the unit I'll gut it though but I have never said the APC is off though I think Bosconian may indeed be correct that it can be fooled.

Fair enough! But, one question! Why would you void your warranty on the APC unit? I am not asking you to take it apart... Hell, comparing it to a Kil-A-Watt would be good enough for me.

 

[MrOblivious]

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777

Originally posted by: MrOblivious

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777

Originally posted by: MrOblivious

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777

Originally posted by: MrOblivious
http://img.photobucket.com/alb...e_c_t_r_e/100_2710.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/alb...e_c_t_r_e/100_1218.jpg

How often does your Kil-A-Watt device update the values? My wattage can fluctate from 185 to 225 in a millesecond on my device. Although I am not calling into question your particular example, but I could see someone taking the picture where the one value repoted high before the other device updated, thus showing the DC higher than AC, but not really being so, because they were taken at different time intervals.

It is consistantly wrong with units it can not read the AC side properly. It is 353w AC for the top example so it is way beyond a fluctuation.

Well, actually, it depends on how it is setup. If these devices are daisy chained on each other, that could explain why some of these are measuring far different than the others. Trying to report AC draw from another AC device that draws from anotehr AC device... I am not sure if that would cause a problem or not. Be worth looking into.

No there is no difference in daisy chaining or not. When this first came up I went through all the combinations. On units it is wrong on it is consistantly wrong. The difference is more on some units than on others though. And no I am not going to be unplugging everything in my house so I can compare to the mechanical meter on a whim. We already know that they can and are fallable and that they can be off by a good bit as it can be verified by a second meter.

As for the APC I am also not going to be buying a unit to promptly void the warranty and lose al my money to see how it does measure. If you would like to donate the unit I'll gut it though but I have never said the APC is off though I think Bosconian may indeed be correct that it can be fooled.

Fair enough! But, one question! Why would you void your warranty on the APC unit? I am not asking you to take it apart... Hell, comparing it to a Kil-A-Watt would be good enough for me.

To see how it works of course