Underhanded ATI

[Pete]

Yes and we all know that PS2.0 is the only feature in DX9

Well, what else is there that NV3x is better than R3x0 at?

On the other, I haven't even read the other posts in this thread and I bet some ATI worshipers are trying to spin this already.

I do believe one good

deserves another ... or three.

Shut your yap Pete! Do not be dissing my nV30, I will hunt you down, lock you in a closet with a tape of me playing UT2004!
WHAT'S THAT? I CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER THAT EXTREMELY LOCALIZED TORNADO IN YOUR PC. 😀 :beer:

dude, i just wanna take a dump right here and now on this thread.
So ends another AT discussion, withered by the foul winds of rank crassness. Can't you just let us work out our differences of opinion in peace, rather than posting **** like this?

 

[chsh1ca]

I suppose I'm going to be called a fanATIc for saying "how about ya wait for the benchmarks" for the hundredth time?

I remember this forum during the pre-FX days, and there was far less mindless speculation going about than there is now. Overanalyzing everything to the nth degree is not only a waste of time and effort, but also a waste of Anandtech's DB space and bandwidth. All for what? So you can say "NYAHAHAH! I TOLD YOU! NV IS 1.5 FPS FASTER AT PS3.0!!! IT GETS A WHOPPING 7FPS RUNNING THE NV_BLOB PS3.0 DEMO!", after which, it will turn out that both NV and ATI had to hardcode their drivers for those demos to do app detection and completely optimize the card for that particular demo, just to get that 7/5.5FPS. And then, in a move that will startle nobody, and cause even less to care, every review site on the web will flip a coin and declare random "performance kings" as they always do. I mean really, come on, it's not like this hasn't been done already. It doesn't really need doing again and again and again and again. Honest.

 

[Pete]

Can I call you a NARC? 😀

 

[Genx87]

People may have mocked NV3x, but it wasn't just for FP16's lower IQ (which, BTW, nV itself demonstrated upon the NV30's launch--look for their FP16 vs. FP32 shots), it was for slow FPwhatever performance. And let's not forget R300 was as fast or faster than NV30, but with better AA (which is much easier to spot in screenshots than nV's reportedly better texture filtering).


Right.............because we all know those DX8 games that they were testing the NV30 on had floating point paths?

As for the texture filtering it is not hard at all to find the differences. Just tilt the angle to anything not 90 or 45 degrees and you will see the difference.

Take a look at this test.

R3.xx vs NV35 AF

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: Genx87
People may have mocked NV3x, but it wasn't just for FP16's lower IQ (which, BTW, nV itself demonstrated upon the NV30's launch--look for their FP16 vs. FP32 shots), it was for slow FPwhatever performance. And let's not forget R300 was as fast or faster than NV30, but with better AA (which is much easier to spot in screenshots than nV's reportedly better texture filtering).


Right.............because we all know those DX8 games that they were testing the NV30 on had floating point paths?

As for the texture filtering it is not hard at all to find the differences. Just tilt the angle to anything not 90 or 45 degrees and you will see the difference.

Take a look at this test.

http://www.skenegroup.net/tertsi/aniso/

Wow theres a very clear difference in some of those screenshots.

 

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: Insomniak
NV and ATI both play dirty in marketing, the online community has just chosen to skewer NV alone for some reason. It's like politicians - they all have mud on their faces and skeletons in their closet, but which ones you see are only the ones you CHOOSE to see.

Ahem, that's to you fanbois, boys, or however the hell it's being spelled these days.

When the benchmarks come out, whoever is the better value will get my money. End of story.

Oh, look, this conversation ended 6 posts ago.....

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: Insomniak

Originally posted by: Insomniak
NV and ATI both play dirty in marketing, the online community has just chosen to skewer NV alone for some reason. It's like politicians - they all have mud on their faces and skeletons in their closet, but which ones you see are only the ones you CHOOSE to see.

Ahem, that's to you fanbois, boys, or however the hell it's being spelled these days.

When the benchmarks come out, whoever is the better value will get my money. End of story.

Oh, look, this conversation ended 6 posts ago.....

Yet you still feel the need to bump it.

 

[Insomniak]

If only to shut it down, yes.

 

[futuristicmonkey]

Shut your yap Pete! Do not be dissing my nV30, I will hunt you down, lock you in a closet with a tape of me playing UT2004!
WHAT'S THAT? I CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER THAT EXTREMELY LOCALIZED TORNADO IN YOUR PC. 😀 :beer:[/quote]

ROFLMAO

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: Genx87
People may have mocked NV3x, but it wasn't just for FP16's lower IQ (which, BTW, nV itself demonstrated upon the NV30's launch--look for their FP16 vs. FP32 shots), it was for slow FPwhatever performance. And let's not forget R300 was as fast or faster than NV30, but with better AA (which is much easier to spot in screenshots than nV's reportedly better texture filtering).


Right.............because we all know those DX8 games that they were testing the NV30 on had floating point paths?

As for the texture filtering it is not hard at all to find the differences. Just tilt the angle to anything not 90 or 45 degrees and you will see the difference.

Take a look at this test.

R3.xx vs NV35 AF

Show me games. In FL2004 ATi's AF looks much better.

People call ATi underhanded, but I dont see them continuing to cheat in 3dmark.

 

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: Insomniak

Originally posted by: Insomniak
NV and ATI both play dirty in marketing, the online community has just chosen to skewer NV alone for some reason. It's like politicians - they all have mud on their faces and skeletons in their closet, but which ones you see are only the ones you CHOOSE to see.

Ahem, that's to you fanbois, boys, or however the hell it's being spelled these days.

When the benchmarks come out, whoever is the better value will get my money. End of story.

Oh, look, this conversation ended X posts ago.....

 

[Pete]

Right.............because we all know those DX8 games that they were testing the NV30 on had floating point paths?
You lost me here. R3x0 is faster in PS2.0, apparently faster in VS2.0 according to 3DM03 (I haven't seen another VS2.0 benchmark other than maybe GunMetal, which I don't really think is indicative of anything, or AM3, which I'm certain has some VS test but which don't know too much about), but that's a separate issue from DX8. It can be faster in DX8, too, as the Xbit Deus Ex 2 benches seem to indicate, but not always (see the X2 rolling demo, though that may be highlighting shadow performance).

As for the texture filtering it is not hard at all to find the differences. Just tilt the angle to anything not 90 or 45 degrees and you will see the difference.
I was talking about the texture shimmer that shows up in motion that Ben bemoans (and I agree with) and 3DC investigated, not of angle-dependent AF levels which are easy to spot in a still picture (blurry or crisp).

 

[Genx87]

Well it is rather hard to take a still shot of the shimmering. But this is rather generic of the quality of AF filtering you will recieve from an ATI card in a game.

 

[chsh1ca]

Originally posted by: Pete
Can I call you a NARC? 😀

If NARC stands for bored with these purposeless threads, sure. 😉

 

[Pete]

Shut up, Narc!

(Sorry, nostalgia forced me to say it, not anything you said. I just think it's a funny phrase. 😀)

These threads serve some purpose if they can educate people. Like I'm not sure how ATi is being accused of wanting to stifle game devs, when they've been innovating for the past couple generations (PS1.4 on R200, usable PS2.0 on R300), while nV has been sort of resting on their laurels. If ppl aren't receptive to an enlightening discussion, though, then I guess these threads are pointless.

 

[BFG10K]

that's like saying you'd rather eat 6 pieces of sh** rather than eating 7-8 pieces of sh**. (PS2.0 performance is terrible for what you get from it with the current cards)

Compared to a jet plane both a balloon and a glider and pieces of crap for air travel. Does that mean a glider is equal to a balloon and you don't mind which you get?

As for the texture filtering it is not hard at all to find the differences. Just tilt the angle to anything not 90 or 45 degrees and you will see the difference.

ATi have been using adaptive AF since 2000's Radeon; that's hardly news. What is news is that the NV3x does as well and posting pretty screenshots showing ATi in a bad light doesn't change that fact.

Let's start with the fact that 16x AF is available on ATi while nVidia is capped at 8x. But wait, don't tell me: that's irrelevent, just like ATi's superior PS 2.0 performance is irrelevant. But what is relevent is some obscure non-game screenshot showing nVidia in a good light, right?

 

[nRollo]

BFG :

Compared to a jet plane both a balloon and a glider and pieces of crap for air travel. Does that mean a glider is equal to a balloon and you don't mind which you get?

No it means they both suck, and you're screwed either way.

A much better analogy would be:

There are 4 video cards that will be available in a couple months. There are currently 2-3 PS2 games, a couple more DX9 games.
The 5900 runs PS2 at 10 fps. The 9800 runs it at 20fps, twice as fast! The nV40 runs it at 60fps, and the R420 at 65fps.

According to Belligerent Frickin' Guy, we should fight like hyenas on the savannah over whether it's better to have a 5900 or 9800, because the 9800 "is twice as good, whether games use it or not!"

Sage Rollo says,"Meh. 5900s and 9800s suxorz at running PS2 on those couple games. If we want to talk PS2, let's wait till May/June so we can talk about cards where it's an issue."

To which BFG will reply something like "Cheater drivers!" or "I count 8 more jaggies on this magnified nVidia screenshot!"

 

[nRollo]

WHAT'S THAT? I CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER THAT EXTREMELY LOCALIZED TORNADO IN YOUR PC.

Pete, I wish you lived in WI. I'd invite you over to have some barley wine, the most kick a$$ beer on the planet, and actually hear the 5800U.

While it's definitely the loudest thing in your case, my four year old has on OCer hsf on his AXP1700+, and a case with a side fan blowing on the cpu and vid card. It's not any quieter than the 5800U, which he wants and will have when I go all nV40/R420, just a little lower pitched. The 5800U got a bad rap on noise, it's really not that noticeable while gaming.

 

[BFG10K]

No it means they both suck, and you're screwed either way.

But you're less screwed if you have the glider.

Again I'll ask: do you truly feel that there's no difference between the balloon and the glider? Are you trying saying you wouldn't mind which one of the two you got?

 

[Pete]

Heh, I appreciate the offer, Rollo. Really, I'm just very picky about noise. I couldn't stand the varying pitch coming from the retail HSF on my Athlon XP1700+, and right now my WD 800JB's whine is getting on my nerve. Heck, the electrical noise from an IBM T30 laptop annoys me! I'm one of the SPCR crowd, I suppose.

 

[chsh1ca]

Hehehe Pete. I ask you again, in the posts since my last, is there really a purpose for these threads? It always degenerates into the inevitable BFG vs Rollo analogy war. What Rollo, do you think BFG has to take up the slack from your old pal Rogo or something? Like really guys, arguing about whose analogy is better gets completely off the point. Like I said before, wait until the cards are released before trying to analyze this crap...

Pete, may I suggest earplugs, or perhaps a tinfoil hat? 😉

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

No it means they both suck, and you're screwed either way.

But you're less screwed if you have the glider.

Again I'll ask: do you truly feel that there's no difference between the balloon and the glider? Are you trying saying you wouldn't mind which one of the two you got?

The question BFG is if the glider plummeted to the ground killing everyone on board under certain conditions. Would you still want the glider 😉

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

No it means they both suck, and you're screwed either way.

But you're less screwed if you have the glider.

Again I'll ask: do you truly feel that there's no difference between the balloon and the glider? Are you trying saying you wouldn't mind which one of the two you got?

That's exactly what I'm saying BFG. If I have two tools that are unsuitable for one task, but relatively equal for all the other tasks, it doesn't matter which to tool I have because I'm only going to be using the tools for the tasks they're suited for. When the task they are unsuitable for is something I need to do, I'll buy the right tool for the job. To me it seems pointless to suffer bad performance just because it's less bad.

Pretty scary stuff, this logic, huh?

 

[BFG10K]

That's exactly what I'm saying BFG.

Wow, so you'd be happy to cross the Atlantic Ocean in a balloon when you have a glider available?

Would you also take a bicycle over a scooter because a Ferrari is much faster than either?
Would accept a cardboard box instead of a single room in a house because a mansion is much better than either?

No offense but your logic is bizarre.

f I have two tools that are unsuitable for one task, but relatively equal for all the other tasks, it doesn't matter which to tool I have because I'm only going to be using the tools for the tasks they're suited for.

They aren't relatively equal; the glider is much better than the balloon in terms of air speed just like the R3xx is up to twice as fast as the NV3x at running PS 2.0. The problem is that you're bringing in an irrelevant third party - a 747 - and using that as an attempt to claim that the previous two items are the same.

Two items are not the same because a third item is much better than either of them.

Pretty scary stuff, this logic, huh?

Logic dictates that you always take the better option so therefore your comments are completely and utterly illogical.

 

[Acanthus]

Unless youre a massochist you won't play a game at 5-25fps, so it really isnt a relevant analogy.