- Jul 31, 2006
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Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: Sacrilege
Originally posted by: RichardE
Killing Jews is ok because they are...Jews?
60 years ago in Germany it was OK to kill Jews just because of who they were.
Today, in Israel and America, it is socially acceptable to kill Palestinian women and children just because who they are. There a no innocent Palestinians.
Maybe someday, the UN will decide to give the Palestinians a homeland somewhere, and people will say "never again."
funny, I don't recall reading about the Jews sending rockets, suicide bombers, and IED's into German cities...?
While the number of innocent deaths still makes me sad, I really still can't fault Israel for doing everything within their power to stop the terror. So here we are...
Read up on the Jewish resistance during WW II then, they targetted not only the German soldiers but anyone suspected of collaborating with the Germans as well. Basically they fought back. Just like the Palestinians fight back now. But since saying bad things about Jews is a taboo ever since WW II a lot of those Jews in Israel who came from Russia and are as racist and violent as the Nazis were can go about their bussiness of targetting innocents and stealing their property without anyone being able to condemn it without being called anti-semitic.
you call that fighting back equal at all.
its not called a war against germans, its called a resistance to them.
6 million died. are you forgetting that?
Originally posted by: Sacrilege
Originally posted by: RichardE
Killing Jews is ok because they are...Jews?
60 years ago in Germany it was OK to kill Jews just because of who they were.
Today, in Israel and America, it is socially acceptable to kill Palestinian women and children just because who they are. There a no innocent Palestinians.
Maybe someday, the UN will decide to give the Palestinians a homeland somewhere, and people will say "never again."
There is quite a difference between combat fatalities and manufactured genocide. Secondly the Gaza strip and West bank did have a homeland at one point. They were part of Jordan and Egypt.
palehorse
Lifer
- Dec 21, 2005
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That just might be the most ridiculous comparison I've ever seen...
It's also amazing just how much land the Jews have "stolen" over the last 60 years. At this rate, they'll be able to conquer the entire ME region in no less than 9000 or 10000 more years! Oh noooo'sss... They must be stopped!!!!111
:roll:
kylebisme
Diamond Member
- Mar 25, 2000
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Are you suggesting that if Germans had only fought to keep Jews pinned back in gettos, without ever going the distance to manufactured genocide, you would have been cool with such "combat fatalities"?
Rather he Gaza Strip and West Bank are land, filled with millions of people who are being denied sovereignty over their homeland, Egyptian and Jordanian occupation respectively, and since by Israeli occupation.
So, your argument is that what amount of land Israel does insist on robbing Palestinians of is reasonable?
palehorse
Lifer
- Dec 21, 2005
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Yes.
I advocate Israel taking the entire West bank and Gaza Strip. I also feel that they should tell ALL of the Palestinians to go live in Egypt, Jordan, or Syria... or anywhere else besides Israel. Those without records of violence who wish to stay can become citizens of Israel and obey all Israeli laws accordingly...
The rest will get over it eventually. Besides, their Arab cousins love them, right?
Most importantly, the militants must be pushed beyond rocket range, one way or another...
We are not supporting Israel's conquest over Palestinians. We're the ones keeping them from rolling in and killing ever last one of them.
kylebisme
Diamond Member
- Mar 25, 2000
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Yet Israel is in rocket range of Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. So your ethnic cleansing proposition simply shifts the militants location, without effecting their ability to launch rockets at Israel, while increasing their motivation. Furthermore, no one can become a citizen of Israel without Israel's approval, and Israel has no interest in granting citizenship to non-Jews, without violent records or otherwise. Hence the need for Israel to withdraw from enough of Palestine to leave both Israelis and Palestinians with their own sovereign nations.
Israel is constantly rolling in more settlements and killing off whoever gets in the way,under cover of our diplomatic power and with our economic and military support. Passing that off as helping Palestinians takes some serious twisting. Were helping our intent, we would stop vetoing the UN resolutions which would otherwise lead to sanctions and embargos against Israel to cut them off from the means to contenue this conquest.
Israel does not want ANY of them to be citizens of Israel. AT ALL. PERIOD. This is why they occupy the land and try to push the Arabs off of it! Do you understand that point? If that was the case, Israel would have annexed EVERYTHING and declared all people as subjects of the state of Israel.
You have really clouded vision if you think that he actually supports terrorists or is 'a sympathizer'. His posting history clearly shows that he seeks to try to end this conflict, has stated flatly that Israel will continue and has a right to exist, and comes up with a lot of valuable documents to bolster his argument.
He almost supports an "ends justify the means" in response to Hamas actions. That might be all well and good for some people but it is that mentality that will keep getting Palestinians killed.
Looking at what he has said as a whole (and not just in this post) shows that he cares quite a bit about the Palestinians. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. To call him an extremist is absolutely not accurate.
It is people who seek to stall the peace process, people who don't want a resolution, and people who actually don't care about Palestinians (but pretend they do....or don't even care about hiding their hatred) that are the problem. People (no need to make callsouts in this thread) on this forum are near the exact same as these assholes http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7895485.stm , and they know that prolonging this conflict will just keep fanning the flames of extremism until all that is left are extremists - its a self fulfilling prophecy that seeks to violently establish itself.
I agree with you. I agree actually that Israel has sometimes gone too far in certain things and that the current nationalism sweeping Israel is probably not in the best interest of peace. I don't agree with the worldwide "Oh, it is ok Hamas did this because Israel did that!".
As long as people ignore Israels side of this equation in some self indulging moral justification of defending David than Israel cannot move an inch. Until the world recognizes the issues Israel actually faces with the proposed peace process Israel cannot give concessions. This is not a one sided war.
That mostly happened on 9/11. When does Iran get the satisfation of revenge for American putting the Shah in power or supporting Saddam's invasion of them?
Credit for the acknoledgment of some excesses by Israel. I'd have more sympathy for Israel's concerns if the government put a stop to (and removed) the settlements.
That's the elephant in the room I basically never see discussed in pro-Israel posts. Each side has their rhetorical structure geared to justify their actions.
The problem with the removal of settlements as it stands is no one has a concrete plan for after they are removed. Do we remove them, let Palestine move in, and attack Israel from it? No one thinks about that, they just assume that removing the settlements will fix all the problems, yet the removal of settlements does not address any real fundamental issue on either side. No one discusses Israel security ever when it comes to this, which is what Israel is concerned about.
Simplification of the issue to "if Israel removed settlements everything would smell like roses" is the exact reason Israel at the time will not remove the settlements. As I said, until people recognize Israels side of the issue she cannot move an inch.
You set up a straw man with the attack on the 'if the settlements were removed, then everything would be roses' argument no one has made.
It's a little like if the police started searching homes randomly, and when peopel complained about the violation of their civil rights, the defenders said 'no one talks about the crime prevention needs, when they say if that if the police just stop searching homes without warrante, everything will be great. There will still be the crime'.
It's clearly missing the point. The police have the right to do SOME things against crime, but not others. Israel has the right to do SOME things for security but not others.
The reason for them to stop the settlements is ont because things will be roses; it's because the settlements are clearly WRONG.
Period.
As far as what to do if they're removed and Palestenians move in to launch rockets - do the things that are conventionally allowed. Shoot back. Invade if needed.
But there's no right to have the settlements that are a huge long-term threat to the Palestenians' rights to have their own nation.
Frankly, I'd be inclined to support some sort of temporary but continuing Israeli military presences there, over the settlements, if the security issue justifies it.
I'll give you more latitude to respond to the rocket attacks, than to have the settlements.
It's not a straw argument when it is an assumption. Removing settlements which act as a natural buffer at the moment is a permanent act that requires security to be established prior to their removal. That is really not a negotiable point and every Israel political party for the most part has taken that line.
kylebisme
Diamond Member
- Mar 25, 2000
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You misunderstand me. I don't support any "end justify the means" mentality. in regard to Hamas or otherwise.
If you look a bit deeper you'll see that I hold equal concern for Israelis. Granted, it isn't so obvious in my comments are directed at overcoming the confusion which perpetuates this conflict which is mostly in regard to the situation of Palestinians. However, my goal is to see a just resolution brought to this conflict so that both Israelis and Palestinians can live as neighbors in peace.
On that note, for anyone who hasn't seen it yet, I highly recommend Waltz With Bashir, a recent animated film about an Israeli man's struggle to come to grips with nightmares of his service in the 1982 Lebanon War:
http://blip.tv/file/1746738
- Jul 31, 2006
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except Israel has never and will never fire on these countries for no reason. same reason jordan and egypt already signed peace treaties, because they got their faces owned more than once.
- Jul 31, 2006
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thats why a part of the government's seats are shared with arabs, which sit next to likud and other parties. they may always side left handed(give up land for peace), but israel isnt completely blocking them out like you so just blasted out
kylebisme
Diamond Member
- Mar 25, 2000
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A demilitarized zone is a buffer, civil settlements in occupied territory as a defensive measure is quite simply the use of human shields. Furthermore, the settlements are spread all across the West Bank, not separating Palestinians from eachother as much as they are from Israel.
Then please show me; what are we winning in supporting Israel's conquest over Palestine?
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