UN Panel: Israeli Settlements Are Illegal

[fskimospy]

Start arresting Pallestinians for War Crimes for firing missles into Israel.

Serious question, why the devotion to Israel? Do you defend any other foreign nation's policies in this manner?

What Israel is doing is most likely bad for US interests. Why would you want to support continued action that is bad for the US?

 

[DominionSeraph]

If you want to make excuses for Israel's repeated and ongoing violation of international law that's fine, but let's not fool ourselves into thinking their actions are anything other than such violations.

WWII was ended the carpet bombing of German cities, and with the dropping of nukes and the threat of continuation until Japan was annihilated. Israel is encroaching with... houses. Yet you seem to think that houses should be singled out.

You're not very bright.

 

[Dari]

Eaglekeeper equivocating Israel to China shows how morally bankrupt Israel is when her supporters point to the worst regimes and say "Look, they do it too." Sad and pathetic

 

[DominionSeraph]

Eaglekeeper equivocating Israel to China shows how morally bankrupt Israel is when her supporters point to the worst regimes and say "Look, they do it too." Sad and pathetic

You're also not very bright.

 

[fskimospy]

WWII was ended the carpet bombing of German cities, and with the dropping of nukes and the threat of continuation until Japan was annihilated. Israel is encroaching with... houses. Yet you seem to think that houses should be singled out.

You're not very bright.

No one said houses should be singled out, and 4th Geneva Convention that governs treatment of civilians (and the one that Israel is violating, and the US would have likely been violating in its attacks on civilians) didn't exist when Germany and Japan were bombed. Additionally, I did not argue that houses should be singled out, but only that settlements were a violation of the Geneva Convention, which they are.

You're not very bright, very well educated, or very good at reading for comprehension. Keep reaching for that rainbow though.

EDIT: I do appreciate you quoting me in your signature though!

 

[Gintaras]

Tell the Soviet Union to give up all the territory they took during World War II!

I'm from former USSR...
Now, when Germany united, when Baltic counties received independence, there was a Verbal Agreement between Michail Gorbachev and NATO countries: that NATO would NOT expand into east.
However, NATO did. Could you trust someone, who breaks an agreement?

About Israel...I do have jewish friends. Some say, that goverment in Israel is criminal. One of these friends, a young woman, live in Israel and was even wounded during bomb explosion...

If you'd like to know what's really going on... I would suggest to check Noam Chomsky's site - his analysis about recent events...
Also, there's another intelligent jewish guy - Norman Finkelstein...

Both are disliked by Israel's government - no wonder why....

 

[nehalem256]

No one said houses should be singled out, and 4th Geneva Convention that governs treatment of civilians (and the one that Israel is violating, and the US would have likely been violating in its attacks on civilians) didn't exist when Germany and Japan were bombed. Additionally, I did not argue that houses should be singled out, but only that settlements were a violation of the Geneva Convention, which they are.

What does Israel building settlements on land it won in a war it was attacked have to do with bombing civilians?

 

[fskimospy]

What does Israel building settlements on land it won in a war it was attacked have to do with bombing civilians?

They both violate the 4th Geneva Convention.

 

[DominionSeraph]

I'm from former USSR...
Now, when Germany united, when Baltic counties received independence, there was a Verbal Agreement between Michail Gorbachev and NATO countries: that NATO would NOT expand into east.
However, NATO did. Could you trust someone, who breaks an agreement?

NATO isn't a country, it is a defensive alliance. The countries you refer to had borders already, and their joining to NATO didn't change them.

 

[Dari]

You're also not very bright.

Is this what you tell your goth girlfriend before beating her?

 

[Gintaras]

NATO isn't a country, it is a defensive alliance. The countries you refer to had borders already, and their joining to NATO didn't change them.

You've failed 3 times in one short post of yours:

1)I don's say - NATO is a Country, it was "NATO countries"...
2) So far, NATO is not a DEFENSIVE ALLIANCE, rather it is an AGRESSION ALIANCE - neither Afganistan nor Iraq attacked any NATO countries, but NATO(leading by US) started wars against these nations without reason...
3)Before West Germany united with East Germany...and Baltic countries gained independence, NATO borders were @ West Germany borders, before East Block countries borders...
Repeat to boneheads like DominionSeraph: There was a verrbal agreement between Michail Gorbachev and US and their NATO allies: :"they would not move NATO borders that were before 1989"...However, NATO BROKE AND AGREEMENT - Poland, Baltic countries are now in NATO....It won't help them much in case of war, let'say, vs. Russia, it might hurt them a lot in that case....

 

[Whiskey16]

Gintaras, intentionally or not, thank you very much for the examples for the freedom of self determination from the USSR, the dismantling of that state, and giving that to me to relate to the conflict between the states of Israel and Palestine.

You may complain that the current Russian Federation has failed in preventing the free will of now independent parties from the USSR to join international alliances and parties as they so choose. That's life with freedom and in accordance to international law.

EagleKeeper so loves to equate the tyrannical expansion of the USSR, China, and other states to that of Israel. Time lines are important. For starters, I believe the final state expansion of the Soviet Union occurred before the cessation of hostilities of WWII and before the ratification of the UN charter and the first four Geneva Conventions of 1949. Israel's territorial expansion and colonisation began and remains in action well after the ratification of such conventions and laws that outlawed such aggression.

Yes, into the post WWII international legal climate, the influence of the Soviet Union did continue with the imposition of tyrannical puppet dictatorships (much as the USA did throughout the world to maximise its sphere of control) in through Eastern Europe and their formal state signed alliance into the Warsaw Pact. That's enough for well recognised states beyond the confines of the USSR.

The dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991 came with the recognition of statehood and independence of all 15 former republics of the USSR and the formation of the quite weakly aligned Commonwealth of Independent States, of which the Russian Federation remains part. By law, yet not always by freedom of Russian influence or overt coercion, these former Soviet republics have the same statehood rights of independence as countries/states in the rest of the world. If they determine membership into NATO is of their interest, then Russia has no say otherwise. That these states recognise past Russian aggression and fear a return to imperial subservience back under Moscow, is an issue for another thread.

How this relates to Israel and Palestine is that Palestinians have the very same legal entitlement to self determination and independence. EagleKeeper does love to equate Israel to Russia and China for low morality lending to criminal extraterritorial expansion, yet the time lines are that Israel is even worse than the USSR, but in sync with the lows of China. Unlike Israel, the USSR did not continue its specific state territorial expansion after the significant post-WWII international laws of the UN Charter and first four Geneva Conventions in 1949. Though China did with its invasion and annexation of Tibet in 1950-51. I'll give EagleKeeper kudos for that correct and low equation -- Israel is illegally and immorally on par with China.

Going back to the former Soviet Republics, in the modern world, self-determination more often than not, wins the day. The former Soviet Republics are now free to choose and independently enter alliances and sue to international courts if the needs arise. So may the State of Palestine. That Israel continues to act against international law with criminal expansion and annexation against extra-territorial land and commit crimes against the entitled people of that land, will only further act as a detriment to that state. With just cause due to Israeli action and policy, the world standing for the State of Israel continually diminishes. The moral standing and the legal rights to independence and self-determination for the State of Palestine proportionately increase. Israel is gravely concernedtowards successful continuation of its state policy of lebensraum... Facts on the ground...

 

[nehalem256]

Israel's territorial expansion and colonisation began and remains in action well after the ratification of such conventions and laws that outlawed such aggression.

See this is where we have disagree.

Israel is the one that has been repeatedly the victim of foreign acts of aggression.

What you are arguing for is that nations should be able to commit acts of aggression and then if they lose come throw a fit to the UN.

It should be obvious why this is complete and utter stupidity.

 

[Whiskey16]

Unilateral extraterritorial expansion and annexation is aggression.

See this is where we have disagree.

Israel is the one that has been repeatedly the victim of foreign acts of aggression.

For decades, where are those military invasions upon to Israel? Enacting high crimes of aggression, for decades Israel continues to expand and annex territory beyond its borders.

What as that recent E-1 announcement?

Sticking by your misguided premise alone, rather than defend Israel, you have condemned it as an aggressor.

What you are arguing for is that nations should be able to commit acts of aggression and then if they lose come throw a fit to the UN.

It should be obvious why this is complete and utter stupidity.

Regardless of your attempted argument for spoils of war going to the defensive victor, you have neither law nor modern morality to back you up.

This is an instance of black or white. Be it warfare reacting to an attack (decades past) or an instigation of aggression (decades since), the legal international standard as ratified by Israel is the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war.

 

[nehalem256]

For decades, where are those military invasions upon to Israel? Enacting high crimes of aggression, for decades Israel continues to expand and annex territory beyond its borders.

Please feel free to point out when Israel invaded a country to annex its territory.

What is Israel suppose to do? Go oh sorry you picked a fight with us and got your ass whipped?

 

[Whiskey16]

Please feel free to point out when Israel invaded a country to annex its territory.

Ahh, you've descended into misrepresentation and dishonest argumentation with semantics.

For honest clarification, I will refresh you upon what you quoted:

Originally Posted by Whiskey16
For decades, where are those military invasions upon to Israel? Enacting high crimes of aggression, for decades Israel continues to expand and annex territory beyond its borders.

Not a classification stated for what territory has been annexed, just that it's present beyond the State of Israel, and there not for Israeli taking. The self determination of the people stands.

You misrepresented me by injecting the word "country," so let's now run with that. As of last fall, Israel is invading and annexing the territory of a country -- the State of Palestine. The lack of Israeli observance does not negate that fact. All the legal ramifications for Israel acting out in criminal aggression upon a fellow state now come into play.

Your flailing shotgun attempt at argumentation has lost.

What is Israel suppose to do? Go oh sorry you picked a fight with us and got your ass whipped?

Supposed to do? Glorious celebrations of victory for maintaining the integrity of their state. What may not be done is aggressively annexing territory beyond its borders, colonising, and replacing the existing population, as Israel continues to do.

I get it, as EagleKeeper, you do not give a damn towards the law. Your motivation and basis for an argument is to absolutely play cheerleader for your a chosen side, regardless of its aggressive immorality while you argue in the lack of substance for its defence.

Listen, nehaem256, I have taken the time to respond to you and your questions, but I am again repeating myself..

 

[JEDIYoda]

i would suggest to check noam chomsky's site - his analysis about recent events...

rofl..hahahhaa...yeah right....

 

[JEDIYoda]

the territory of a country -- the State of Palestine.

State of Palestine as is the state of Confusion???

So lets get this correct there is a formal State of Palestine that is accepted world wide??
There are people who call themselves Palestinians but are they really....

 

[Whiskey16]

So lets get this correct there is a formal State of Palestine that is accepted world wide??

Yes, the vast majority of states throughout the world recognise it as such, including pertinent international legal bodies [1] [2].

There are people who call themselves Palestinians but are they really....

On that note, as you are Jewish and a Zionist expansionist, it time for a necessary refresher:

You may not deny a people their national/ethnic/religious identity.

That is a step to genocide.

To unilaterally classify a people is to help further enable crimes.

This is done to enable the deportation of the said people as foreigners, deny the legal land claims and residency of such peoples present upon territory that another national state/group (ie. Israeli Zionists), demands for its own.

This is the prejudicial motivation to deny existence of a Palestinian people.

 

[klinc]

....and a final block of familiar but pertinent text:


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A bit of background about me. I am of Jewish descent, particularly from a prominent family of notable lawyers and judges from Ottawa and Montreal. Much of that family fled what is now Eastern Poland just before the outbreak of WWI. From direct experiences with exhumations in Guatemala through to travels throughout Europe, the Middle East, South East Asia, and Japan, I developed a strong interest and empathy to how bigotry rises and genocides come to be plus the fallout from them. Genocide is the extreme end game of bigotry and supremacism.

A tad ironic in consideration to his nationalistic and unwavering defence for Israeli extraterritorial behaviour, is a decent book and accompanying documentary upon genocide and how it can be, by Daniel Goldhagen, Worse than War. Pains of witnessing the start of a genocide but deterred against its prevention was well detail in Lt-Gen. Roméo Dallaire's, Shake Hands with the Devil.

This is particularly why I have acted strongly against the rise of racism and brutal calls to violence upon targeted groups that have been presented on this forum. There is a common supremacist and derogatory path presented in history that enables societies to commit great crimes. As a Jew, I am deeply ashamed of assumed association with the State of Israel for its explicit crimes and paralleling policies and actions to states and religions that have many times throughout the millennia persecuted Jews. Let's be clear, the State of Israel was founded as a political entity with freedom for religion at its core and separated from religion, a homeland welcoming to Jews, not a religious Jewish state. This has become conflated and perversed both from within Israel and external parties. I am not alone as a Jew who can separate that of religion and religious sects from the State of Israel and recognise valid criticism of that state does not imply criticism of Judaism and Jews. Actions by the State of Israel in the former Palestinian territories (now the State of Palestine) are a sordid defamation against the painful history of the Jewish people and much a bloody repeat of the same crimes committed against ourselves. This drives me to achieve fairness for all peoples in this world and to never permit the bigotry and supremacism to again gain an upper hand.

Considering there was just a recent thread arguing in defence of the South African Apartheid state, let's examine how that path in history contributed to the evolution of international criminal law and how those laws may have a direct bearing against the State of Israel:

Race, as in the classic genetic/visible distinction for the a group, is most certainly not the only characteristic for defining racial/ethnic groups nor is that limit for scope of the well defined legal word of apartheid.

Wiki article concerning the crime of Apartheid:



and more, in direct relation to the ICC



As presented, Apartheid is the perfectly applicable word for the Israeli occupation and supremacist extraterritorial expansion in the present State of Palestine. Sadly historically ironical of Israel taking to heart to enact the latter day Imperial and later Nazi Germany's expansionist lebensraum and from the Venice to Warsaw's ghettoization of Palestine.

History has set the precedent for multiple distasteful words. Unfortunately the bigotry and aggression of the state of Israel continuously act to warrant the labelling of such dirty truth, right on down to apartheid.

For its actions beyond its state borders and for its continued actions within the State of Palestine, now a likely jurisdictional territory and party to the Rome Statute, multiple Israeli actors do reasonably fear ICC action taken against them.

With the loud and recent pressure brought against the Palestinian Authority participating in the ICC, a now certifiably accepted state government of the territory of the Israeli occupied state of Palestine, there is a justifiably strong Israeli state fear of the ICC bringing action against Israeli state actors for their foreign and aggressively criminal actions on the ground of Palestine. Damning facts on the ground, if we will.

Yet India and Pakistan were created with applying Apartheid.

And South Africa well

Why is there no Mexicans in the US Government?
Why is there no Germans in the UK Government?
Why is there no Indians in the Pakistan Government?
Then why is there foreigners in my government?

If a mexican jump the fence enter the United States illegally. Can he vote? Does he get benefits? If the answer is no then what's the difference than what South Africa did?

 

[SandEagle]

State of Palestine as is the state of Confusion???

So lets get this correct there is a formal State of Palestine that is accepted world wide??
There are people who call themselves Palestinians but are they really....

http://www.rys2sense.com/anti-neocons/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7971&start=0