Un-necessary Deaths

[a777pilot]

I started a thread this morning with one purpose in mind and it was a complete and utter failure.

The purpose was to get people away from thinking of this tragedy in Aurora as a gun control issue and to think of it as a failure of our mental health system, or lack there of.

No one saw it.

I'm really not as fucked up as most of you think.....OK, maybe pretty close.

So, what do you think of the state of our mental health care in this nation after what has just happened?

Mental illness still has a stigma to it that will not seem to go away. The owner of a Gun Club thought something was wrong, but he didn't say anything. Who would have he told even if he had thought of it?

 

[WackyDan]

777 - I think that is actually a more worthy discussion... It can start here:

http://dailycaller.com/2012/07/21/k...iberties-trump-how-we-treat-the-mentally-ill/

I frequent a few different forums, and even the liberals on those forums are starting to recognize that while their view point has always been the control of firearms after such events like the one in CO... They are now understanding that there are other societal things at play, like the way we diagnose and treat mental illness. I actually find it somewhat refreshing.

 

[soundforbjt]

When you have hospitals dumping mental patients on the streets, you've got a problem. No matter what you may think, I have no problems with guns ( I'm a gun owner myself), I have a problem with them being too available to people who have no business mentally owning them. When you own or especially carry a gun, you have to be the most stable and reasonable person in any situation. It's a big responsibilty that is taken too lightly.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Thank you for this topic, which is worthy of discussion.

The reality is that we as a nation don't have much of a mental health system anymore, outside of the corrections system. After the advent of Thorazine it became possible to treat schizophrenics and other psychotic patients with a drug that, while problematic in terms of side effects, would at least eliminate their psychotic symptoms, and so many previously institutionalized patients were freed. Reagan then went on to close a large percentage of existing mental facilities during his term as President. This made sense at the time - a lot of the facilities were dreadful and they were enormously costly - but it did represent a substantial reduction in available long-term care for severely mentally ill patients.

Typically, the only way really crazy people get help is if they have families who are sophisticated and wealthy enough to arrange for it, or (as is more common) they end up in the criminal justice system. Meanwhile, the criminal system really isn't cut out to deal with floridly mentally ill patients, so their conditions often go untreated and get worse.

In practice, we have become something of a disconnected society, and a person like James Holmes was, for the most part, free to spend the majority of his time alone, indulging his worst demons, without anyone noticing that he might be mentally ill, much less committing him. I'm not sure there's much we as a society could have done to prevent this in that respect. Holmes appears to have been sufficiently high-functioning that he was able to interact normally with others, and was sophisticated enough to buy all of these supplies and construct bombs, etc. I tend to doubt that he is actively (or at least consistently) psychotic, a la Jared Loughner, or he probably couldn't have done these things.

I am certainly interested to see what we learn about Holmes in the coming months and years, and I hope that this incident serves as a reminder that we should watch for danger signs in our friends, loved ones, co-workers etc., and not be afraid to intervene if they seem headed for a dark place. I also wish there were a way (and logistically I'm not sure there is) to keep guns out of the hands of crazy people. Unfortunately I'm not convinced that such a system would be practicable or constitutional, and even if it were, it might not have prevented Mr. Holmes from buying a gun.

 

[TheVrolok]

I started a thread this morning with one purpose in mind and it was a complete and utter failure.

The purpose was to get people away from thinking of this tragedy in Aurora as a gun control issue and to think of it as a failure of our mental health system, or lack there of.

No one saw it.

I'm really not as fucked up as most of you think.....OK, maybe pretty close.

So, what do you think of the state of our mental health care in this nation after what has just happened?

Mental illness still has a stigma to it that will not seem to go away. The owner of a Gun Club thought something was wrong, but he didn't say anything. Who would have he told even if he had thought of it?

I don't agree with the OP on a lot of social/political issues, but I agree wholeheartedly that we, in the US, fail miserably when it comes to the social/cultural/medical roles of mental health care.

 

[Emos]

Mr Rational Person: who are you and what have you done with our a777 pilot???
But seriously, thanks for bringing up the discussion, as mental illness still is a spectrum of diseases that gets swept under the carpet or ignored until it's too late. Too often the attitude towards the mentally ill is that it's something completely under their control, they just need more will power...we don't treat people with "physical" disease like that. Granted things are better since the lobotomy days but it's still a taboo subject for many.

Neuroscience is still an emerging field and there is so much about the brain that remains a mystery.

 

[alzan]

Thanks to the OP for dealing with the issue in a more rational way.

The state of our mental health care is in disarray. While the drugs available now are much better than they were, there's so much more research that needs to be done. My wife is a probation officer who works with dual-diagnosis clients (mental disorder & substance abuse) and sees first hand the problems with putting the mentally ill in jail. Most of her clients are from lower income groups and their families, who while well meaning do not have the emotional or financial resources to adequately cope with their relatives. Just keeping her clients on their meds and out of trouble with the law and court system is more than a 40 hour a week job. Resources for parolees and probationers need to be increased at the state level to aid the clients and their families.

My wifes' twin sister has schizo-affective disorder which is a progressive illness. When I first met my wife-to-be (18 years ago) her sister was on several medications and was also receiving shock treatments at least once a year. The shock treatments turned her almost zombie-like for a couple of weeks after, not too mention the long term affects to her short and long term memory. Thankfully she is no longer receiving ECT; she is on more medications but is able to function fairly well despite them. All have side effects and some have the same side effects; one medication, I believe Clozaril(sp?), caused her teeth to erode necessitating dentures.

She is currently living with us and will remain here as long as possible; since her disorder is progressive we may one day have to put her in a group home, a distinct possibility with which none of us are comfortable.

 

[MovingTarget]

Don't assume that Liberals go after this from a gun-control issue standpoint. 777, the premise of this thread is a worthy one, one that liberals should be wholeheartedly in support of. Our mental health system is in shambles not because we don't know how to treat them, but because of the lack of access to proper care and the various stigmas associated with mental illness. Thank you for bringing this up.

 

[Rainsford]

I'm not sure an issue like this has to be limited to only one category of issue, but I do think it raises questions about how we deal with mental health in this country. To be honest, I don't think the issue is so much our medical system's ability to deal with it as our cultural bias against viewing professional treatment as an option for mental or psychological issues. I think this is particularly true of men, who are often told that "toughing it out" is the way to approach ALL issues, especially mental ones.

The problem is that a lot of personal issues can be addressed on your own. But some of them can't, and most people aren't capable of accurate self-diagnosis when it comes to stuff like that.

I also think psychological isolation in general is an issue, not just professional psychological help. I don't think this would help in all cases, but often I wonder if someone who snaps would have been saved if they had just talked to someone about their issues earlier in the process. Feeling like you're alone with your issues can't help...

 

[Cerb]

I started a thread this morning with one purpose in mind and it was a complete and utter failure.

The purpose was to get people away from thinking of this tragedy in Aurora as a gun control issue and to think of it as a failure of our mental health system, or lack there of.

No one saw it.

The mods must have it in for you. I saw it, locked, and passed by, figuring it had become a troll and/or flame mess. Skimming over it now, I wasn't wrong. Overall, I view the incident as a gun control problem only in the sense that the guy was off his rocker. Politicians will then want to implement stricter gun controls, that do nothing at all to prevent such people from acquiring guns. Same old same old.

So, what do you think of the state of our mental health care in this nation after what has just happened?

Mental illness still has a stigma to it that will not seem to go away. The owner of a Gun Club thought something was wrong, but he didn't say anything. Who would have he told even if he had thought of it?

That is a good question. One aspect, often brought up by the Columbine incident, is that we tell people, but never listen. We are fundamentally social creatures, and emotional coping skills simply can't be learned without interaction, much less put into practice alone.

Beyond that, while anecdotes, I've met several people who have spent time in mental hospitals, and did actually get help they needed (and had good stories to tell, of having fun at the staff's expense...I guess boredom is pretty common). TBH, my knowledge of the subject is fairly limited, though, and mostly about over-reaching, abuse, and basically torture accepted as medicine, that are among the many varied reasons that it is harder to force people to get help today.

 

[a777pilot]

Even this murderer knew he was sick. In a desperate cry out for help he told what he was about to do. The mail was not opened.

.....if only.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/2...-suspect-laid-out-plans-in-package-mailed-to/

 

[TheVrolok]

Even this murderer knew he was sick. In a desperate cry out for help he told what he was about to do. The mail was not opened.

.....if only.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/2...-suspect-laid-out-plans-in-package-mailed-to/

Wow. Now this is the most disturbing part of all. It seems as if it could have been prevented.

 

[MovingTarget]

Wow. Now this is the most disturbing part of all. It seems as if it could have been prevented.

Damn, exhibit A right there...

This could have been prevented. People don't just "snap" like that for no good reason without warning. Guns aren't the problem here. Too bad he didn't get the help he needed.

 

[JKing106]

Don't assume that Liberals go after this from a gun-control issue standpoint. 777, the premise of this thread is a worthy one, one that liberals should be wholeheartedly in support of. Our mental health system is in shambles not because we don't know how to treat them, but because of the lack of access to proper care and the various stigmas associated with mental illness. Thank you for bringing this up.

Also, if the sun didn't come up tomorrow morning, it would be Liberal's fault. Thank you.

 

[JKing106]

Damn, exhibit A right there...

This could have been prevented. People don't just "snap" like that for no good reason without warning. Guns aren't the problem here. Too bad he didn't get the help he needed.

Thank you, Dr. Freud. Thank God that guns had in absolutely no way possible in a million years anything to do with his mental illness!

 

[werepossum]

Damn, exhibit A right there...

This could have been prevented. People don't just "snap" like that for no good reason without warning. Guns aren't the problem here. Too bad he didn't get the help he needed.

But how do we get help for such a person?

Some things are clear - we very much need free or means-tested mental health facilities for those who need to be locked up for their own and/or others' protection. What good are meds if the person can't afford them or just won't take them? And unfortunately we will probably also need barracks-style housing for the homeless (who so often do suffer from mental illness anyway) to prevent them from using this for free housing. This will almost certainly have to be government, to catch those who hate religion.

 

[MovingTarget]

But how do we get help for such a person?

Some things are clear - we very much need free or means-tested mental health facilities for those who need to be locked up for their own and/or others' protection. What good are meds if the person can't afford them or just won't take them? And unfortunately we will probably also need barracks-style housing for the homeless (who so often do suffer from mental illness anyway) to prevent them from using this for free housing. This will almost certainly have to be government, to catch those who hate religion.

If we took mental health as seriously as physical health, then there's your answer. Look at the various hospitals/clinics for the indigent. Those aren't sufficient either and need expanding, but do provide a good model to get started.

And no, it is a common perception that those who are mentally ill need to be 'locked up'. Most can be treated on an outpatient basis. The cost of the meds will have to be dealt with regardless of it being related to psychological conditions.

The government does have a role to play, but not 'to catch those who hate religion'. Churches do provide invaluable service in that area, but their efforts are nowhere near enough even for die-hard believers.

 

[alzan]

Even this murderer knew he was sick. In a desperate cry out for help he told what he was about to do. The mail was not opened.

.....if only.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/2...-suspect-laid-out-plans-in-package-mailed-to/

Truly disturbing. Would someone having read the notebook been able to stop the tragedy? Possibly. I'd like to think that other things that happened could've prevented it as well.

A brilliant student in a graduate program suddenly dropping all his classes should have put up red flags if anyone was paying attention. Holmes himself could have gone to talk to someone who was observant enough to see a problem. But like Rainsford and Cerb touched on; society at large and smaller intimate groups (classmates) have our "SEP" (Somebody Else's Problem) fields up 24/7. As well, the individual has their own mental or emotional blinder's that won't let them see a potential problem.

The societal and individual stigma that is attached to psychological issues and mental disorders needs to be torn down if we are ever to eliminate tragedies of this or lesser/greater degrees.

 

[Jaskalas]

Wow. Now this is the most disturbing part of all. It seems as if it could have been prevented.

The source said the package had been in the mailroom since July 12

That's a hell of lead time to call the cops before he went out and killed everyone.

They had one week to review the contents of his notebook.

 

[woolfe9999]

To head something like this off, someone first has to recognize it then do something about it. All the free/cheap mental health care in the world will do nothing if that first basic step is not taken. The sad truth is, even when people recognize mental illness in others, it is so rare that a mentally ill person does something like this that people tend to view the illness as the other person's problem and do not want to interfere. Probably most everyone reading this has been aware of someone they knew probably having psychological problems but didn't consider it their place or their business to do anything about it. I know I have.

In this case, Holmes had educated, upper middle class parents who probably could have afforded to get him help. Not sure how much they knew, but I was struck by the mother's initial comment, saying "you have the right person," not generally appearing to be surprised. It's possible they knew he had serious problems.

Anyway, none of this is a comment on available mental health resources in this country because that isn't entirely relevant unless or until someone decides to make use of it, either for themselves or for someone else.

The unopened parcel says nothing about it either. The only question there is why someone in a mail room didn't give a package to a psychiatrist. Then again, it's all hindsight because 99.9999999% of parcels do not contain information about plans to commit mass murder. That said, I'd hate to be the person who was responsible for that package.

- wolf

 

[QuantumPion]

How is this event evidence of a failure of the mental health system? Are we supposed to lock everyone up until they can objectively prove they aren't crazy?

 

[Jaskalas]

How is this event evidence of a failure of the mental health system? Are we supposed to lock everyone up until they can objectively prove they aren't crazy?

Perhaps colleges and military should have evaluation programs for those enrolled to provide a risk assessment for underlying problems. Then while the default status is to pass the program, medical experts may flag outlying individuals.

Then when such folks purchase weapons, if even allowed to, they can be double scrutinized or asked to return for further evaluation.

Honestly, it's no task to imagine solutions. The trouble is A: paying for it and B: ensuring it is legal within the confines of a limited government.

 

[a777pilot]

How is this event evidence of a failure of the mental health system? Are we supposed to lock everyone up until they can objectively prove they aren't crazy?

Well, you have a point but it sure wasn't a success.

Besides, you spout the bias I mentioned in my OP. You think they ought to be locked up.

 

[Jmman]

I was going to post this earlier. To me it makes an awful lot of sense.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012...er-that-psychiatry-not-gun-laws-needs-fixing/

 

[Jaskalas]

I was going to post this earlier. To me it makes an awful lot of sense.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012...er-that-psychiatry-not-gun-laws-needs-fixing/

Agreed, people need to become engaged on the subject.