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UN Human Poverty Index for Developped Countries

Kibbo

Platinum Member
Here's an article on it from The Globe and Mail

First off, a few comments on it.

Many will probably criticize this study for favouring socialist countries. I would like to ask them how does one rate poverty without favouring socialism?

That being said, I have a few problems with the study. For one, the four criteria by which the countries are measured are more of a little taster of factors that indicate poverty, rather than a comprehensive study of them. It is an interesting cross-section, though.

The long-life measure and the unemployment measures both seem fair to me. The US's low score on the long-life measure surprised me. The high scores on the unemployment measure from the statist European nations definitely support the proposition that a high degree of regulation can resrtict employment. I pause at the literacy measure, but if it uses comparable data, then it also has merit. Even of one disagrees with the standards used, the fact that there are 2x and 2.5x the number of functionally illiterate people in Canada and the US respectively compared to the top spot is concerning. The numbers should be tighter.

The poverty rate index is the one with which I have the biggest problem. The definition is almost arbitrary, since there could a wide difference between the actual standard of living between the lowest classes of different countries. The term "Poverty" is ill-used here. That being said, I think that we can all agree that the smaller the lower class in a country, the better. Calling it a measure of class concentration would have made me much happier.

 
How many people here are willing to pay 81% federal income tax to match Sweden in this area?

Good analysis of the results, btw.
 
Which orifice did you pull this number out of, Cyclowizard?

"How many people here are willing to pay 81% federal income tax to match Sweden in this area?"

The top marginal tax rate in Sweden is 65%- and that's only on whatever income is above a certain astronomical amount...

http://www.econlib.org/library.../MarginalTaxRates.html

How would I feel about paying big taxes on really big money? Just fine, thank you, actually pretty patriotic...

 
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Which orifice did you pull this number out of, Cyclowizard?

"How many people here are willing to pay 81% federal income tax to match Sweden in this area?"

The top marginal tax rate in Sweden is 65%- and that's only on whatever income is above a certain astronomical amount...

http://www.econlib.org/library.../MarginalTaxRates.html

How would I feel about paying big taxes on really big money? Just fine, thank you, actually pretty patriotic...

Instead of the govt taking your money in taxes...wouldnt you rather decide where it goes?

Or would you rather have the govt take care of us all?
 
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Which orifice did you pull this number out of, Cyclowizard?

"How many people here are willing to pay 81% federal income tax to match Sweden in this area?"

The top marginal tax rate in Sweden is 65%- and that's only on whatever income is above a certain astronomical amount...

http://www.econlib.org/library.../MarginalTaxRates.html

How would I feel about paying big taxes on really big money? Just fine, thank you, actually pretty patriotic...

I got it from someone that moved here from Sweden five years ago. He said after all was said and done, he would come home with 19% of his paycheck, so I guess 81% maybe isn't just federal income tax, but all taxes. Or their taxes have gone up since 1990, which is the date supplied with your data. Of course, that wasn't the point of my post. The point was to ask how many people here would pay increased taxes, out of their own pockets, to drop the poverty level? I don't care what you claim you would do if you were rich.
 
Does the Canadian media, politicians, society, etc. always talk about these types of UN surveys? It seems a big thing in Canadian culture.
 
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Does the Canadian media, politicians, society, etc. always talk about these types of UN surveys? It seems a big thing in Canadian culture.

We were ranked #1 on the Human Development Index for years, and the PM used this in his political campaigns. This makes it news. We plunged on that ranking for a couple of years, and the difference was news 'cause it was the same PM in office. Also, the US usually scores from poor to mediocre on these things, so I can see why it isn't news there. If you got a #1, I bet that it would be in the papers. Bruce Little published this one to knock us down from our high horse. He's real good at that.

Mongoose, I doubt that the diet of Canadians is much better that that of Americans. Or the British or Aussies for that matter. An Aussie buddy of mine introduced me to a dish that incorporated Bacon, Sausage and Gravy. It was damn good, too. They put fried egg on their burgers for crying out loud.

Edit: clarity.
 
Originally posted by: Kibbo
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Does the Canadian media, politicians, society, etc. always talk about these types of UN surveys? It seems a big thing in Canadian culture.

We were ranked #1 on the Human Development Index for years, and the PM used this in his political campaigns. This makes it news. We plunged on that ranking for a couple of years, and the difference was news 'cause it was the same PM in office. Also, the US usually scores from poor to mediocre on these things, so I can see why it isn't news there. If you got a #1, I bet that it would be in the papers. Bruce Little published this one to knock us down from our high horse. He's real good at that.

Mongoose, I doubt that the diet of Canadians is much better that that of Americans. Or the British or Aussies for that matter. An Aussie buddy of mine introduced me to a dish that incorporated Bacon, Sausage and Gravy. It was damn good, too. They put fried egg on their burgers for crying out loud.

Edit: clarity.

I was joking about the obesity being the main factor. Hence the 😉

I don't think that even the previous human development index where the US ranks well is really talked much about in the US. Maybe because it seems that many Americans don't care about the UN as much.
 
Cyclowizard; I live in Sweden and got a somewhat-above-average-income and I pay 33% of my salary in tax.
Around 31-34% is normal, if you have a high income it will increase a few percent.
I seriously doubt anyone actually pays 65% in tax, that is just a theoretical figure.
(I have heard of people with a VERY high income that have payed almost 50% in tax)
 
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Which orifice did you pull this number out of, Cyclowizard?

"How many people here are willing to pay 81% federal income tax to match Sweden in this area?"

The top marginal tax rate in Sweden is 65%- and that's only on whatever income is above a certain astronomical amount...

http://www.econlib.org/library.../MarginalTaxRates.html

How would I feel about paying big taxes on really big money? Just fine, thank you, actually pretty patriotic...

I got it from someone that moved here from Sweden five years ago. He said after all was said and done, he would come home with 19% of his paycheck, so I guess 81% maybe isn't just federal income tax, but all taxes. Or their taxes have gone up since 1990, which is the date supplied with your data. Of course, that wasn't the point of my post. The point was to ask how many people here would pay increased taxes, out of their own pockets, to drop the poverty level? I don't care what you claim you would do if you were rich.

81%???? Man, why even bother letting them keep any at that point?
 
Originally posted by: Kibbo
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Does the Canadian media, politicians, society, etc. always talk about these types of UN surveys? It seems a big thing in Canadian culture.

We were ranked #1 on the Human Development Index for years, and the PM used this in his political campaigns. This makes it news. We plunged on that ranking for a couple of years, and the difference was news 'cause it was the same PM in office. Also, the US usually scores from poor to mediocre on these things, so I can see why it isn't news there. If you got a #1, I bet that it would be in the papers. Bruce Little published this one to knock us down from our high horse. He's real good at that.

Mongoose, I doubt that the diet of Canadians is much better that that of Americans. Or the British or Aussies for that matter. An Aussie buddy of mine introduced me to a dish that incorporated Bacon, Sausage and Gravy. It was damn good, too. They put fried egg on their burgers for crying out loud.

Edit: clarity.

Well the US is ranked pretty well in the Human Development report and it was ranked ahead of Canada last year or the year before (I believe it was said that Canada slipped because of the worsening quality of their education). It's just never reported as big news or talked about by politicians much.

It reminds me of my small hometown which has front page news about the town being ranked #2 city to start a business in or retire, etc. by a magazine or organization 🙂
 
Originally posted by: CanOWorms


Well the US is ranked pretty well in the Human Development report and it was ranked ahead of Canada last year or the year before (I believe it was said that Canada slipped because of the worsening quality of their education). It's just never reported as big news or talked about by politicians much.

It reminds me of my small hometown which has front page news about the town being ranked #2 city to start a business in or retire, etc. by a magazine or organization 🙂

If the US ever made it to 1st, you don't think the papers would mention it? Public opinion polls in the US show that the UN has a very favourable reputation. The Iraq war might've changed that a little, but IIR a talk I saw (post Iraq) correctly, the approval numbers of the UN were very similar between the US and Canada. Although they were starting to diverge.

These things didn't really get much play until we hit #1 and the PM started using them in his speeches.
 
Originally posted by: Kibbo
Originally posted by: CanOWorms


Well the US is ranked pretty well in the Human Development report and it was ranked ahead of Canada last year or the year before (I believe it was said that Canada slipped because of the worsening quality of their education). It's just never reported as big news or talked about by politicians much.

It reminds me of my small hometown which has front page news about the town being ranked #2 city to start a business in or retire, etc. by a magazine or organization 🙂

If the US ever made it to 1st, you don't think the papers would mention it? Public opinion polls in the US show that the UN has a very favourable reputation. The Iraq war might've changed that a little, but IIR a talk I saw (post Iraq) correctly, the approval numbers of the UN were very similar between the US and Canada. Although they were starting to diverge.

These things didn't really get much play until we hit #1 and the PM started using them in his speeches.

Well they might report it, but I don't think it would be something so ingrained into the society.
 
Originally posted by: Kibbo
Originally posted by: CanOWorms


Well the US is ranked pretty well in the Human Development report and it was ranked ahead of Canada last year or the year before (I believe it was said that Canada slipped because of the worsening quality of their education). It's just never reported as big news or talked about by politicians much.

It reminds me of my small hometown which has front page news about the town being ranked #2 city to start a business in or retire, etc. by a magazine or organization 🙂

If the US ever made it to 1st, you don't think the papers would mention it? Public opinion polls in the US show that the UN has a very favourable reputation. The Iraq war might've changed that a little, but IIR a talk I saw (post Iraq) correctly, the approval numbers of the UN were very similar between the US and Canada. Although they were starting to diverge.

These things didn't really get much play until we hit #1 and the PM started using them in his speeches.

Well the US is basically very well represented in the other report, almost the same as Canada, which is pretty impressive for them if they are non-socialist and very large. However, I don't believe that they talk about it much.

I think some of these statistics are rather strange such as "incomes are less than half the median after-tax income for the country"...don't some countries like the US, Canada, and Australia earn more than, say, Italy? Is this a common measurement?
 
Originally posted by: f95toli
Cyclowizard; I live in Sweden and got a somewhat-above-average-income and I pay 33% of my salary in tax.
Around 31-34% is normal, if you have a high income it will increase a few percent.
I seriously doubt anyone actually pays 65% in tax, that is just a theoretical figure.
(I have heard of people with a VERY high income that have payed almost 50% in tax)
Thanks for the clarification. Maybe he was talking about 'back in the day,' because he was 60ish.
 
Originally posted by: Czar
shouldnt those who gain the most from living in a certain country pay the most?
It's reasonable if you look at it that way. There are alternative viewpoints though:
1. Taxes go to things used commonly (more or less equally) by taxpayers.
2. Those who pay in the most get less back, due to social programs.

I like your statement though, as it actually justifies progressive taxation. :beer:
 
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: Czar
shouldnt those who gain the most from living in a certain country pay the most?
It's reasonable if you look at it that way. There are alternative viewpoints though:
1. Taxes go to things used commonly (more or less equally) by taxpayers.
2. Those who pay in the most get less back, due to social programs.

I like your statement though, as it actually justifies progressive taxation. :beer:
hehe 🙂

1. True
2. Not directly but indirectly they probably get the most because its in their best interest to make more money to have a good infastructure, a healthy population and a well educated population. Take for example Ericson.
 
Originally posted by: Czar
shouldnt those who gain the most from living in a certain country pay the most?

Why let them keep anything? Auction off all their assets so the lazy bums won't ever have to work again...
 
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