UN condemns Israel...what else is new...

[Nemesis77]

<< One thing I noticed was a lot of accusation but no real evidence presented. >>



I think all that they could do. They studied what happened, interviewed eyewitnesses (international aid-workers among others) and cross-checked their stories. The fact that Israel refused to cooperate with them made things a bit more difficult though.



<< They claim of obligations to protect civilians but there is no mention of what Israel did or what steps they took to aviod civilian casualities. >>



You could say that since they failed to protect the civilians, they didn't take enough precautions. And determining how many died because of those booby-traps would be difficult. I guess they only talked about the death that could be verified as being caused by IDF.



<< Less than 60 people died, and of that we do not know of how many were combantants. To call this a massacre is irresponsible but to also claim of war crimes with so few casualities and aviod the Palestinian contribution is IMO just as irresponsible. >>



While the palestinians do share the guilt IMO, it still seems that a trained army used civilians as human-shilds. I would expect more from IDF. Hamas and others on the other hand.... They are terrorists, they usually aren't concerned with morality of their actions. I disagree with their actions, I realize that they are criminals. IDF is supposedly not, I try to hold IDF at a higher standard.



<< As far as Syeria, they might have mentioned it but they have never done an investigation in country. >>



It might be difficult. I would assume that a nation like Syria wouldn't actually welcome Amnestys observers with open arms.



<< And I do know for a fact that neither of these groups ever issued a public press statement condemning the treatment of US prisnors in Iraq. >>



here is the collected reports of Amnesty regarding Iraq. However, it doesn't go as far as the Gulf War, so I can't confirm your claim.



<< I don't think they are ignored but the sources are questionable because of their past history to jump to conclusions. >>



I don't think that Amnesty or HRW are questionable sources. Their reports seem to be accurate and balanced (for example, their Jenin reports confirm what we know: there were militants in the camp, houses were booby-trapped, there was no massacre)



<< But PAID by the PA many times from International funds yet there is no action taken byt he UN to look into this. >>



There were claims that funds from EU were used to pay to the families of suicide-bombers. EU has denied the charges, but they are looking in to the matter.



<< Great debating you once again Nemesis >>



Likewise, friend

 

[Bulk Beef]

First, did the UN not recently issue a statement supporting the Palestinian use of "all available means" in it's fight against the Israelis?

Second, there seems to be a great deal of concern for Palestinian civilians, but how do you define civilian? If a twelve-year-old boy is carrying ammunition for his older brother, is he a civilian? The IDF soldiers that were killed a couple of weeks ago were lured into a trap by Palestinian women who were telling them the coast was clear. Were those women civilians?

 

[b0mbrman]

To:


<< inquiries@un.org >>


Subject:
Question about Israeli/Palestinian conflict

Body:
To whom it may concern,

I'm just a casual follower of the news but from what I've read, it seems that your resolutions and actions seem to be onesided in this conflict in favor the Palestinians.

Is there any particular reason why this is so?

Mario
[/End]

Let's see if they can respond before the Kazaa people do

 

[308nato]

Here's The Saudi Take On It

 

[HamSupLo]

Has anyone ever written to UN and asked the (politely!) why their resolutions/actions seem to onesided in this conflict? I think that would be an interesting thing to do. I know I would like to know.


I'm sorry, but the UN organization can't give you any answer for your question. Maybe you should ask the members of the Security Council and the General Assembly that make up the voting body at the UN. That makes about 150+ countries. Everyone is so quick to down the UN, but the organization itself doesn't issue the condemations of Israel. What you are hearing is world opinion.

 

[Nemesis77]

<<

<< And I remember reading of cases where IDF used foreign nationals (Italians if I recall correctly) as humans shields as well, but I can't find a link right now >>


If that were true, can you imagine how bad the west would completely freak? I don't think you will be able to find a reliable source for that. But if you do, please post the link. >>



I read about it back when we were having the big Jenin-discussion. And the source was an israeli newspaper if I remember correctly. but I can't find the link right now

 

[ThePresence]

<< There seems to be a great deal of concern for Palestinian civilians, but how do you define civilian? If a twelve-year-old boy is carrying ammunition for his older brother, is he a civilian? The IDF soldiers that were killed a couple of weeks ago were lured into a trap by Palestinian women who were telling them the coast was clear. Were those women civilians? >>

 

[Nemesis77]

Link found:



<< A stretch on Ramallah's main road that leads west from Manara Squara was the site of extensive gunfights and shelling yesterday. During skirmishing in this area, shots were fired at a non-government health clinic complex of the Medical Relief Committees. Officials at the complex, who include volunteers from Italy, and residents in the building, were forced to leave after loudspeaker announcements threatened that the facility would be shelled.

IDF soldiers detained a physician in the complex, and forced him to serve as a human shield while they conducted searches of the facility, the Relief Committees' head, Dr. Mustafa Barghouthi, told Ha'aretz. Building residents and workers for the Relief Committees, including the volunteers from Italy and a European Parliament member, Luisa Morgantini, were first forced to stand against a wall with their hands in the air. They were then held for several hours outside the building, before being released in the evening. >>



Source

 

[Jimbo]

<< Dr. Mustafa Barghouthi, is president of the Palestinian Medical Relief Committees and the director of the Health, Development, Information and Policy Institute (HDIP). >>



This guy has been somewhat less that accurate in the past. Do you have any other sources?

 

[Nemesis77]

<<

<< Dr. Mustafa Barghouthi, is president of the Palestinian Medical Relief Committees and the director of the Health, Development, Information and Policy Institute (HDIP). >>



This guy has been somewhat less that accurate in the past. Do you have any other sources? >>



Well, I guess I could mail the italian member of the european parliament who was present and ask her that did that really happen. But not now, it's getting late. If you are interested, please remind me later via PM . I'll try to do it tomorrow, but I'm spending tomorrow with my girlfriend who is in hospital, so this thing isn't at the top of my list of priorities right now.

 

[Bulk Beef]

Sorry Nemisis, but according to your quote, the Italians were detained, not used as human shields.


<< While the palestinians do share the guilt IMO, it still seems that a trained army used civilians as human-shilds. I would expect more from IDF. Hamas and others on the other hand.... They are terrorists, they usually aren't concerned with morality of their actions. I disagree with their actions, I realize that they are criminals. IDF is supposedly not, I try to hold IDF at a higher standard. >>

I'll call bullsh*t on that.

 

[Nemesis77]

<< Sorry Nemisis, but according to your quote, the Italians were detained, not used as human shields. >>



Yep, it does seem like that, but I'll try to mail the italian MEP who was present and ask her what happened.



<<

<< While the palestinians do share the guilt IMO, it still seems that a trained army used civilians as human-shilds. I would expect more from IDF. Hamas and others on the other hand.... They are terrorists, they usually aren't concerned with morality of their actions. I disagree with their actions, I realize that they are criminals. IDF is supposedly not, I try to hold IDF at a higher standard. >>

I'll call bullsh*t on that. >>



There are several reports of IDF using human-shields, go look 'em up.

 

[Nefrodite]

idf tells palestininan man to knock on a door to evacuate buildings b4 they bulldoze so they won't crush people by accident. er/un/human rights watch nutcase sees it and calls it "human shielding".

 

[b0mbrman]

<< There are several reports of IDF using human-shields, go look 'em up. >>


What does "human shield" mean to you? Because I can think of two possibilities that are pretty different:

(1) IDF guys send a Palestinian ahead of them so a suicide bomb doesn't get set off near them or people don't start shooting at them
(2) In the middle of a gunfight, IDF guys grab an innocent bystander and use him as cover

Because I have heard of the first but not the second...I find the first pretty reasonable...

 

[Jimbo]

<< Yep, it does seem like that, but I'll try to mail the italian MEP who was present and ask her what happened. >>


That would be totally cool!
I will say it is a thin line between being detained by IDF soldiers and the claim that they were detained as a human shield while the IDF was present.
Now if we had reliable reports of Merkava tanks with Palestinian babies strapped to the turrets, then we would have something!

 

[alrocky]

From the link Nemesis77 provided, part II SUMMARY:

"Human Rights Watch <U>found no evidence to sustain claims of massacres</U> or large-scale extrajudicial executions...in Jenin..."

"Palestinian gunmen did endanger Palestinian civilians in the camp by using it as a base for planning and launching attacks, using indiscriminate tactics such as planting improvised explosive devices within the camp, and intermingling with the civilian population during the armed conflict, and in some cases, to avoid apprehension by Israeli forces."

Time mag. this week says 50% of the inhabitants left before the IDF arrived. By Day 3 all but 10% remained and did not evacuate.

Chief Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erakat's wild claims of 200-500 deaths is discredited. HRWs charges that Palestinian gunmen exposed their own civilians to danger but this received scant mention in their HRW report. Remember that the Palestinian gunmen chose the ground (amongst civilians) in which to fight and are responsible for endangering their own people. They laid hundreds of mines, trip wires and the like for the IDF. Why 10% foolishly remained and why the gunmen put their own people at risk is something you'll have to ask them.

This information sorta makes the UN inquiry and by extension their denounciation moot.

 

[tk149]

Here's the text of the actual UN resolution:.

Well, after reading the text of the UN resolution and skimming through Amnesty International's and Human Rights Watch's reports, IMO:

1. Taken alone, the UN resolution seems correct and proper, except perhaps for the part about demanding that Israel "lifting the restrictions on the freedom of movement." From the text, I wasn't sure if this applied solely to emergency vehicles and personnel, or anybody who wanted to move around.

2. Taken in context, the fact that there was no statement (or joint resolution) denouncing the MUSLIM terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians; the fact that the resolution was passed by a vote of 74 for, 4 against (including the US & Israel), and 54 abstaining , and (by my count) 57 absent which demonstrates that this UN resolution didn't have a lot of support, shows that this resolution ain't worth squat.

3. It looks like Israel is guilty of some human rights violations, but of not of massacreing hundreds of people. Even Amnesty International acknowledges that there's no proof of large scale massacres. The Human Rights Watch states that it documented 52 deaths, with 27 of those "were suspected to have been armed Palestinians belonging to movements such as Islamic Jihad, Hamas, and the al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigades." I consider those figures acceptable, considering that the IDF found an ambulance containing explosives, there were reports of people surrendering and then blowing themselves up, and it sounds to me like the IDF was continually under fire from the scumbags who chose to hide themselves among a civilian population.

 

[sandorski]

I think a distinction must be made. Israel is a nation, Palestine is nothing more than a refugee camp filled with Palestinians hoping to become a nation. This doesn't justify suicide bombings and what not, but who do you condemn? Arafat? It's doubtful he has any say in this matter, just remember that HAMAS and other groups split from Arafat's PLO when peace with Israel was sought.

 

[Czar]

Small story

John and Sam are neighbours. One day Sam throws his trash on John's lawn. Ofcorse John gets pissed so what he does is he finds a hammer and smashes every window on Sam's house. And without doubt Sam is pissed so he finds some extra paint buckets he owns and splashes the paint everywhere he can on John's house. Now they both are standing outside their house and watching the damage they have done and gloating over it. At that moment a police car drives by.

Should the police arrest Sam for throwing his trash on John's lawn and thank Sam for trying to control the situation or should the police arrest both of them?

Replace Sam and John with either Israel or Palestine and replace either actions by something Israel has done to Palestine or Palestine has done to Israel. How can either of them be perfectly innocent and not be condamned for their actions?

 

[Bulk Beef]

<< How can either of them be perfectly innocent and not be condamned for their actions? >>

That's a very good question, Czar. Ask the UN, because that's exactly what they have been doing. In fact, they not only failed to condemn the Palestinian actions, they supported them.

 

[PistachioByAzul]

The Palestinean terrorists are rag-tag guerrilla groups, there isn't a whole lot to condemn that doesn't really go without saying.