currently the situation is like this, Central Elections Commitee anounced Yanukovich as winner despite multiple complains from citizen (overall about 11 000 registered complains, and that doesn't mean that it's only 1 instance of abuse per complain) and observers from other contries. According to the laws these complains had to be analyzed until Nov 29th and only then the decision about legitimacy of the outcome should've been announced, but current gang in charge, headed by Kuchma and Yanukovich and accusing opposition in breaking laws and disturbing public peace, didn't follow these laws, so what else is there to talk about. This election was rigged, results are not legitimate, opposition agrees to third round with different Elections Commitee, not the one that has been bought and sold many times, but Premier says that this is it, take it or leave it. Of course ppl are very upset about being jiffed for next 4 years, plus this is a very bad precident, it will give corrupt politicians an idea that you can do whatever you want with Ukrainian voter. If we wanted that, Ukraine would probably still be part of the USSR now. It was Ukrainian Independence vote in 1991 that pretty much caused the collapse, if Ukraine didn't support Eltsin, he would have really hard time getting rid of Gorby. Kazakhstan was ruled by the same guy who is in charge now, so he really didn't care about which way it goes, and you know where Belarus stands at the moment.
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Ukraine in crisis as opposition leader declares himself president
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Are you blaming Russia for Belarus' problems? Their problem is not that they didn't break off from Russia, but that they didn't break off from soviet style economic system. They are doing worse than Russia, which is growing economy at a healthy pace. Maybe you should look at Lukashenko instead of looking at Russia as the reason for Belarus' problems.
Well, who would you have on the comission? I think everyone has shown their cards and which candidate they want to win, so it's kind of hard to find an objective observer. Looks like the Ukranian GDP was growing a t a staggering 9%, so the government must have been doing something right.
Reportedly grew, but if you look at salary growth, and budget, measly 1.8%, so you figure where the rest of that money went... Of course these guys will not stand down without a fight, they had it too good for so many years... The biggest problem is that Yanukovich presents as if he has not the half, but at least close to that of actual votes, which is not true, too many people that casted vote for him were intimidated with losing their small paycheck at government job, or brainwashed that Yuschenko is American agent trying to sell the motherland to foreign capitalists...
There is more to a country than GDP growth you know. Belorus is growing at 6.8% and its still a bad place to be. Turkmenistan is growing at 23% and its still a authoritarian oppresive sh!thole backwater. If you care that much about that, than perhaps you'd like to know that it started when Yushchenko was prime minister? And that he has been pushing for reforms since the early 90s, before that douche Kuchma even thought about them.
The problem is Russia still has delusions of grandeur and hasn't gotten used to its "Just another country" status, so its still likes mess around with its former possesions. Supporting civil unrest in Moldova, supporting an area full of criminals like South Ossetia, strongly backing and even campainging on behalf of scumbags like Lukashenka, Yanukovic, Kuchma and their circle of oligarchs.
The problem is Russia still has delusions of grandeur and hasn't gotten used to its "Just another country" status, so its still likes mess around with its former possesions. Supporting civil unrest in Moldova, supporting an area full of criminals like South Ossetia, strongly backing and even campainging on behalf of scumbags like Lukashenka, Yanukovic, Kuchma and their circle of oligarchs.
OMG, what hypocirsy. Exit polls, fraud, and abuse only matter in the Ukraine, and only when the Bush administration disagrees with the outcome. Maybe the Bush administration should refuse to accept the results of the U.S. election based on the same reasons they're refusing to accept the Ukraine results.
Exit polls didn't match election results in the Ukraine. Now exit polls are reliable???
Powell cited reports of fraud and abuse as reasons for refusing to accept the results. LMAO
Can Powell's credibility sink any lower? Can it sink as low as Bush's??? Do these people have any idea what total and utter hypocrites they are in the eyes of everyone other than themselves and their blind band of DFistanis???
The Bush administration is just comical at this point. A complete farce. The election in the Ukraine may very well have been stolen, but by the very same token the election here in the USA may very well have been stolen too. For the perpetrators of the fraud here to voice opposition to the fraud there is the height of arrogance and hypocrisy.
I hope the irony of this situation isn't lost on Americans.
The people of the Ukraine are protesting the theft of their election in the streets. Here we are complacent. Two presidential elections stolen in a row and hardly a peep. When American voters complain about fraud and abuse a chorus of DFistanis calls them kooks and drowns them out.
Land of the free.
Uh huh.
Exit polls didn't match election results in the Ukraine. Now exit polls are reliable???
Powell cited reports of fraud and abuse as reasons for refusing to accept the results. LMAO
Can Powell's credibility sink any lower? Can it sink as low as Bush's??? Do these people have any idea what total and utter hypocrites they are in the eyes of everyone other than themselves and their blind band of DFistanis???
The Bush administration is just comical at this point. A complete farce. The election in the Ukraine may very well have been stolen, but by the very same token the election here in the USA may very well have been stolen too. For the perpetrators of the fraud here to voice opposition to the fraud there is the height of arrogance and hypocrisy.
I hope the irony of this situation isn't lost on Americans.
The people of the Ukraine are protesting the theft of their election in the streets. Here we are complacent. Two presidential elections stolen in a row and hardly a peep. When American voters complain about fraud and abuse a chorus of DFistanis calls them kooks and drowns them out.
Land of the free.
Uh huh.
AnitaPeterson
Diamond Member
Moscow has never ceased to mix up deeply in the politics of former republics, even those countries whose territory was stolen in the last 50 years or so (like Moldova, an entire province of Romania, taken over by the USSR in 1940 - and the cause of Romania entering the war as an ally of Germany)... Russian imperialism is long-documented, and "much loved" throughout Europe... Ukraine has been trying for years to go back to its European ties (it was part of the kingdoms of Poland and Prussia)... Those who accuse the Ukrainina opposition of "hidden" European agenda/ties conveniently forget the country will be better off with Bruxelles, as part of NATO and EU, than continue trailing Moscow... Wait, aren't these the same arguments used by Bush, to justify the "liberation" of Iraq? How ironic....
Russia does not have delusions of grandeur, and if you think it's "just another country," you are delusional yourself. And that has nothing to do with nuclear weapons. It's sitting on the biggest horde of untapped natural resources with the rest of the world looking to it to sustain the demands of their growing economies for those resources. You can't blame Russia for wanting to have friendly states on its border. Every country in the world wants that, and tries to influence it to the extent it can.
Personally I am not too hot on being in Polish or Prussian kingdom either, if that's any help. Polish didn't treat Ukrainians any better than Russians. In modern world every nation has right for existance and self-governing and to elect their own leaders, that's all we want.... BTW, I used to live next to Moldova, it was Soviet before WWII, AKA Besarabia. Romanians annexed a whole chunk of Ukraine after WWI, so to figure out now what belongs to whom is very difficult. World agreed on borders that existed after WWII was over and it should stay that way for peace sake.
Being part of Prussia, taking you at your word, sure didn't stop the Germans from killing a sh!tload of Ukranians in WW2. Romania sided with Hitler and lost, so they had it coming.
I also find it hard to believe that Orthodox Ukraine wants to be part of Catholic Poland. I may be wrong.
To refresh your history, Russian civilzation started in Kiev before it moved on to Muscovy. I think Ukraine will have reasonably good relations with Russia once it gets over its inferiority complex.
This is NOT the first time the elections are heavily protested, it has happened before and continued to happen year after year.
In Georgia Shevardnaze had to step down after a peaceful revolution, the former eastern european states are trying to rid themselves of their past and become a part of the western society. Considering that a growing portion of all companies in Ukraine are EU companies this is crucial for continued expansion, otherwise it will continue to sink further into corruption as Russia has.
The corruption by the current Ukranian Regime was protested almost as heavily as this election last year, i suggest you read up on the situation if you want to have an unbiased opinion on the matter.
This is far from over, hopefully a peaceful revolution will end this, like it did in Georgia.
Supertool, reasonably good relations with Russia does not matter when 80% of all trade is with EU and most new companies in the country are EU companies.
Perhaps more pressure on EU to accept Ukraine into EU is more in order than cupport for a corrupt regime?
In Georgia Shevardnaze had to step down after a peaceful revolution, the former eastern european states are trying to rid themselves of their past and become a part of the western society. Considering that a growing portion of all companies in Ukraine are EU companies this is crucial for continued expansion, otherwise it will continue to sink further into corruption as Russia has.
The corruption by the current Ukranian Regime was protested almost as heavily as this election last year, i suggest you read up on the situation if you want to have an unbiased opinion on the matter.
This is far from over, hopefully a peaceful revolution will end this, like it did in Georgia.
Supertool, reasonably good relations with Russia does not matter when 80% of all trade is with EU and most new companies in the country are EU companies.
Perhaps more pressure on EU to accept Ukraine into EU is more in order than cupport for a corrupt regime?
You are really mistaken.
Most of the trade of Ukraine is from and WITH EU companies, in the last four years things have significantly changed in Ukraine, the only thrade they have with Russia is the gas and even that is starting to change.
Many, many EU companies and American companies is what is making the Ukraine economy roll, they are already more dependant on the EU and US than they are on Russia.
I used to live in Finland, i grew up and spent my teenage years in norther Finland, -30C is nothing if it is something you are used to and dressed for.
You obviously have no idea what you are talking about so i suggest you read up on it before we continue this discussion, relevant numbers would be from THIS year as things tend to change extremely fast in these countires.
I got no beef with you, you know that, so i am not flaming you or nothin, just trying to get some facts into this thread.
phillyTIM
Golden Member
Well now, this whole situation mirrors what happened here in the US elections on November 2nd, doesn't it?
All the cries of illegitimacy and intimidation. Why don't United States citizens stand up to the Bush Regime's aggressions just the same as the Ukranians to theirs?
Bush's Junta continues to exhibit profound, unparallel hypocrisy toward this situation. It should get it's own house in order first, before condemning others.
Let us pray for a new Cold War with Russia to begin again - let Bush beat up on somebody his own size, rather than sniveling little harmless twits in Iraq and the Palestines.
Oh that's right, Bush didn't attack Iraq or NK because they actually have some big balls to play with. Hmmm...let the world see what kind of hypocrite phony Bush is!
All the cries of illegitimacy and intimidation. Why don't United States citizens stand up to the Bush Regime's aggressions just the same as the Ukranians to theirs?
Bush's Junta continues to exhibit profound, unparallel hypocrisy toward this situation. It should get it's own house in order first, before condemning others.
Let us pray for a new Cold War with Russia to begin again - let Bush beat up on somebody his own size, rather than sniveling little harmless twits in Iraq and the Palestines.
Oh that's right, Bush didn't attack Iraq or NK because they actually have some big balls to play with. Hmmm...let the world see what kind of hypocrite phony Bush is!
Look at Georgia and the US supported overthrow of Schevardnadze. Ukraine is very much part of the geopolitical game. It is no coincidence that one candidate wants to look east to Russia and the other west towards the EU and the US. The candidates are recieving foreign support accordingly.
Oh christ, the US might have been happy that Georgians threw Schevardnadze out but it was the people who did it, the US support wasn't something that really mattered, actually i doubt most people even cared.
In the megalomaniacs mind, of course it was the US's doing, without the support from the US it wold not have been possible, and in time people will claim that the US did it singlehandedly.
One of the candidates is a convicted criminal who was put up as a candidate by a corrupt regime KNOWN for few things but corruption. Quick question, which one of the candidates was that?
Most countries really REALLY couldn't care less if the precidency goes one way or the other, for the people of Ukraine it matters a LOT more though.
How do you know the US support did not matter? The US has troops in Georgia now.
Look at Iraq and tell me that US support does not matter. The CIA funded the Chalabis and Allawis for years. On the contrary I think it is simplistic to deny that the US has a very active foreign policy agenda. The CIA is just one of the tools the US uses to further that agenda. This fact has never been more relevant than today with the Neocons in power who have proclaimed as their political goal the "full spectrum domincance" over Earth (and Space). The neocons have said they will actively pursue "regime change" to install pro US governements when and where they feel necessary. Syria and Iran are two nations officially in the fire line. Is it so surprising if there are other nations who are unofficially targeted.
Look at Iraq and tell me that US support does not matter. The CIA funded the Chalabis and Allawis for years. On the contrary I think it is simplistic to deny that the US has a very active foreign policy agenda. The CIA is just one of the tools the US uses to further that agenda. This fact has never been more relevant than today with the Neocons in power who have proclaimed as their political goal the "full spectrum domincance" over Earth (and Space). The neocons have said they will actively pursue "regime change" to install pro US governements when and where they feel necessary. Syria and Iran are two nations officially in the fire line. Is it so surprising if there are other nations who are unofficially targeted.
You are comparing Georgia where the US did not have troops until the government allowed it (yeah, the US support was pretty much all talk, the Georgians did it all themselves.) to Iraq?
Your little rant just means you need to cut down on whatever it is your ingesting/drinking/injecting.
I honestly, DON'T give a shiat about neocons or liberals, we are discussing Ukraine here, if you want to discuss all other nations EXCEPT Ukraine i suggest you do it in a different thread.
Georgia is interesteing as the situations are similar, but the US didn't do shiat to help the Georgians, and they won't do shiat to help the Ukraines, good choice too if you ask me, outside support is ok but no true democracy has ever been built by outside forces.
Schevardnadze's Georgia recieved about a one billion $ in US aid. He let the US use Georgia for military purposes etc. But:
INTRIGUE IN THE CAUCASUS
December 01, 2003
Eric Margolis
The latest recipient of US-induced ?regime change´was not some miscreant Muslim ?rogue´ state but the mainly Christian mountain nation of Georgia.
Eduard Shevardnadze, the 75-year old strongman who has ruled post-Soviet Georgia?s 5.1 million citizens since 1991, was overthrown by a bloodless coup that appears to have been partly organized and financed by the Bush Administration.
Shevardnadze's sin, in Washington's eyes, was being too chummy with Moscow and obstructing a major US oil pipeline, due to open in 2005, from Central Asia, across Georgia to Turkey. Georgia occupies the heart of the wild, unruly, and very strategic Caucasus region, which I call the Mideast North.
In recent months, Shevardnadze had given new drilling and pipeline concessions to Russian firms. He should have recalled the fate of Afghanistan?s Taliban regime, which, like Georgia, was a US client and recipient of American aid until it turned down a major pipeline deal with US oil firm Chevron and awarded it to a Latin American consortium. Taliban was immediately put on the outlaw list and marked for ?regime change'.
....
Shevardnadze kept Georgia independent by deftly playing off the Americans against the Russians, both of whom had designs on the little nation. But his luck finally ran out.
Washington sent high level emissaries, including former Secretary of State James Baker, to warn Shevardnadze not to do anything that threatened the proposed oil corridor, ie deal with the Russians. When he went ahead with Russian oil deals, Washington denounced Georgian elections in early November as rigged - which they were - though it always turns a blind eye to rigged elections in useful allies like oil-rich Azerbaijan, Armenia, Russia, Egypt, Pakistan, Morocco, etc.
Cash and anti-Shevardnadze political operatives from the US poured into Tibilisi to back up the president?s American-educated principal rival, Mikhail Saakashvili. The rigged election ignited mass protests by Georgians, fed up with corruption and crushing poverty. Saakashvilli forces stormed parliament a drove out Shevardnasze, who resigned after army and police refused to defend him.
...
etc.
What is happening in Ukraine is very much part of this same pattern.
INTRIGUE IN THE CAUCASUS
December 01, 2003
Eric Margolis
The latest recipient of US-induced ?regime change´was not some miscreant Muslim ?rogue´ state but the mainly Christian mountain nation of Georgia.
Eduard Shevardnadze, the 75-year old strongman who has ruled post-Soviet Georgia?s 5.1 million citizens since 1991, was overthrown by a bloodless coup that appears to have been partly organized and financed by the Bush Administration.
Shevardnadze's sin, in Washington's eyes, was being too chummy with Moscow and obstructing a major US oil pipeline, due to open in 2005, from Central Asia, across Georgia to Turkey. Georgia occupies the heart of the wild, unruly, and very strategic Caucasus region, which I call the Mideast North.
In recent months, Shevardnadze had given new drilling and pipeline concessions to Russian firms. He should have recalled the fate of Afghanistan?s Taliban regime, which, like Georgia, was a US client and recipient of American aid until it turned down a major pipeline deal with US oil firm Chevron and awarded it to a Latin American consortium. Taliban was immediately put on the outlaw list and marked for ?regime change'.
....
Shevardnadze kept Georgia independent by deftly playing off the Americans against the Russians, both of whom had designs on the little nation. But his luck finally ran out.
Washington sent high level emissaries, including former Secretary of State James Baker, to warn Shevardnadze not to do anything that threatened the proposed oil corridor, ie deal with the Russians. When he went ahead with Russian oil deals, Washington denounced Georgian elections in early November as rigged - which they were - though it always turns a blind eye to rigged elections in useful allies like oil-rich Azerbaijan, Armenia, Russia, Egypt, Pakistan, Morocco, etc.
Cash and anti-Shevardnadze political operatives from the US poured into Tibilisi to back up the president?s American-educated principal rival, Mikhail Saakashvili. The rigged election ignited mass protests by Georgians, fed up with corruption and crushing poverty. Saakashvilli forces stormed parliament a drove out Shevardnasze, who resigned after army and police refused to defend him.
...
etc.
What is happening in Ukraine is very much part of this same pattern.
You guys really need to stop comparing this with Bush's reelection. Bush won because he was better organized, flung more mud and applead to most people. The US is now a defacto one party state and it'll most likely be for quite a while, so you better get used to it.
Now, back to Ukraine. Klixxer is absolutely right. A few token words from the US hardly change anything in Kiev. Even more so because the US has been very cautious about this one, unlike the EU or Canada which have been much more vocal and supportive of Yushchenko.
The simple fact is that the people are just plain sick and tired of corruption, of being oppressed and of being poor. They look west and they see their neighbours (Poland, Slovakia etc) richer than them, freer than them, part of the EU and with much brighter prospects for the future. They just want that, why is it so hard to understand?
And look how low the oligarchs and their puppet Yanukovic have sunk: They have started paying people from the east to go protest in Kiev.
Now, back to Ukraine. Klixxer is absolutely right. A few token words from the US hardly change anything in Kiev. Even more so because the US has been very cautious about this one, unlike the EU or Canada which have been much more vocal and supportive of Yushchenko.
The simple fact is that the people are just plain sick and tired of corruption, of being oppressed and of being poor. They look west and they see their neighbours (Poland, Slovakia etc) richer than them, freer than them, part of the EU and with much brighter prospects for the future. They just want that, why is it so hard to understand?
And look how low the oligarchs and their puppet Yanukovic have sunk: They have started paying people from the east to go protest in Kiev.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com...CENE26/TPInternational
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