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Ukraine in crisis as opposition leader declares himself president

Originally posted by: jlmadyson
Topic Title: Ukraine in crisis as opposition leader declares himself president
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😎 The U.S. is in crisis, looks like I can declare myself President too :thumbsup:
 
for those who don't want to RTFA... the opposition leader is the good guy 😛

here's hoping Ukraine doesn't become a Russian puppet government :beer:
 
Anyways, the guy declaring himself president and calls on other countries to recognize him shows to me he has no respect for the law, and he is just a European puppet. Europeans want Ukraine, because the gas pipeline from Russia goes through Ukraine.
It doesn't matter, because Russia is still the one supplying the gas to Ukraine and Europe. If Ukraine aligns itself with Russia, it will pay lower Russian prices for that gas. If it aligns itself with Europe, it'll pay European prices, which it can hardly afford. Russia has Ukraine by the nads, so this whole notion of Russian puppet government it redundand.
 
The oil issue is relevant, as SuperTool refers to above. The issue that concerns me is the United States reaction. Will we allow others to investigate the results of voting next year in Iraq if the results there look fishy?
 
Originally posted by: dahunan
let DIEBOLD go in and recount all the votes 😉
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I can see it now... the Diebold counting....

One for you... one for me.
Two for you... one, two for me.
Three for you.... one, two, three for me.
 
Europe and US aren't honest brokers in this either. They have a horse in this race, just like Putin. At least Putin is not threatening Ukraine with bad relations like US and EU are.
 
That is simply not true.

The main reasons the opposition leader refuses to accept the official results are:

*ALL the international observers, OSSE, European parliament, NATO and USA (members of the senate) say that the election was NOT fair.
*Exit polls showed 54%-45% in FAVOUR of Jusjtjenko (the opposition candidate), the offical result is 46.6%-49.5%

So oil and support from Europe has nothing to do with this conflict.

There are about 200 000 people on the streets of Kiev right now, lets just hope that this conflict can be solved without violence.





 
Originally posted by: f95toli
That is simply not true.

The main reasons the opposition leader refuses to accept the official results are:

*ALL the international observers, OSSE, European parliament, NATO and USA (members of the senate) say that the election was NOT fair.
*Exit polls showed 54%-45% in FAVOUR of Jusjtjenko (the opposition candidate), the offical result is 46.6%-49.5%

So oil and support from Europe has nothing to do with this conflict.

There are about 200 000 people on the streets of Kiev right now, lets just hope that this conflict can be solved without violence.
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Let me get this straight... The Republicans are claiming that exit polls are good in the Ukraine, but are garbage in the U.S.? LOL, that's just too precious.

 
Originally posted by: f95toli
That is simply not true.

The main reasons the opposition leader refuses to accept the official results are:

*ALL the international observers, OSSE, European parliament, NATO and USA (members of the senate) say that the election was NOT fair.
*Exit polls showed 54%-45% in FAVOUR of Jusjtjenko (the opposition candidate), the offical result is 46.6%-49.5%

So oil and support from Europe has nothing to do with this conflict.

There are about 200 000 people on the streets of Kiev right now, lets just hope that this conflict can be solved without violence.
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yeah, this is true, Premier that "won" according to the government is convicted criminal in the past and ran smear campaign on the scale unheard of in the US... Anyone who thinks that beating up voters at election poles, buying votes for 20$ and preloading voting urns with fake ballots, sending ppl vote multiple times with absentee ballots and instructing government employees vote for Premier or be fired produces legitimate President amazes me big time. Ukranians have been patient for a long time, but current President's proposal to install 2 times convicted criminal as new President and fixing the elections will make the most patient person furious after 13 years of BS that's been going on in Ukraine.


 
Originally posted by: f95toli
That is simply not true.

The main reasons the opposition leader refuses to accept the official results are:

*ALL the international observers, OSSE, European parliament, NATO and USA (members of the senate) say that the election was NOT fair.
*Exit polls showed 54%-45% in FAVOUR of Jusjtjenko (the opposition candidate), the offical result is 46.6%-49.5%

So oil and support from Europe has nothing to do with this conflict.

There are about 200 000 people on the streets of Kiev right now, lets just hope that this conflict can be solved without violence.
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Those are all European and American agencies who have their own agendas European and American agendas, having to do with their own Russophobias. And it's not oil export from Europe, it's natural gas import from Russia.
We can't even trust exit polls in the US. I think they were off by more than 10% in many states. And we had decades of experience conducting exit polls. And you are gonna trust exit polls in Ukraine that had maybe 2 elections? They could easily be off more than 7% there.
I am not saying there wasn't fraud, but exit polls by themselves are not reason enough to convince me, and it's very likely there was some fraud on both sides. Both had regions turn out over 90% for a candidate. That's incredible to me. The whole contest has turned into not who the Ukranian people want as president, but who the West and Russia wants for president. This is still internal Ukranian political affair, IMO, and you should have better evidence then exit polls before sticking your nose into their business.
 
Better evidence?

I heard an interview on the radio with a Canadian observer who saw many strange things, including people moving around poll boxes and then stopping when they realized the observer could see them as well as some (ridings? counties? er. . .districts) who showed 100% turnouts.

The latter is enough for me.
 
Interview on Canadian radio is not evidence. Try again.
Can you Imagine if Kerry proclaimed himself president based on exit poll results. It's ridiculous.
 
The 90% figures might very well be correct.
The reason is simply that Ukraine is a very polarized country, the western part has strong ties with Europe and the eastern part is more or less "Russian".

So when you have one candidate who want to join NATO and another who wants stronger ties with Russia 90% figures are maybe not so unreasonable.

Also, not everything in the world is controlled by international conspiracies. Ukraine might a new democracy but it is a modern nation with a good infrastructure and a well-educated population.
It is wrong to compare this election to for example the election in Afghanistan. I seriously doubt that USA and Europe could "control" Ukraine even if we tried to.



 
Originally posted by: f95toli
The 90% figures might very well be correct.
The reason is simply that Ukraine is a very polarized country, the western part has strong ties with Europe and the eastern part is more or less "Russian".

So when you have one candidate who want to join NATO and another who wants stronger ties with Russia 90% figures are maybe not so unreasonable.

Also, not everything in the world is controlled by international conspiracies. Ukraine might a new democracy but it is a modern nation with a good infrastructure and a well-educated population.
It is wrong to compare this election to for example the election in Afghanistan. I seriously doubt that USA and Europe could "control" Ukraine even if we tried to.
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well, maybe 90% turnout is not unreasonable, but Donetsk and Lugansk region voted 100+ percent, how did that happen? Again, I personally don't believe in reformed criminal running for highest public office, and when this is forced down on me, I will revolt. And this is what is happening in Ukraine right now, because Yanukovich seems to be affiliated with a lot of shady people, not because Ukrainians don't want to join NATO or are afraid of Russia or whatever. I live in the US since 1995, most of my family is still in Ukraine, and I voted Yuschenko because I didn't like the changes that Yanukovich brought while he was a Premier. He is not an unknown.
 
Agreed, but Supertool mentioned that BOTH candidates had district were they got more than 90% of the votes; I was merely pointing out that this does not neccesarily mean much.
AFAIK there is no evidence that Jusjtjenko or any of his supporters has done anything wrong.
 
I am optimistic that the whole thing will turn out well in the end...meaning Yushkenko officially wins.

Russia has nothing to offer but cheap energy, while the EU can offer Ukraine a real future. Similar things have happened throughout Eastern Europe, and the whole region is better off for breaking with Russia. The only ones that are doing badly is those that didn't (Moldova, Belarus). Hopefully Ukrainians will follow suit.
 
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