UK no longer majority Christian - big deal

[pmv]

I actually thought this happened ages ago.

Amusing how differently the papers cover it (Daily Mail of course headlines the racial thing - which also doesn't seem a particularly big deal)

England and Wales now minority Christian countries, census reveals

Data shows Leicester and Birmingham have become UK’s first ‘minority majority’ cities in new age of ‘super-diversity’

www.theguardian.com

Proportion of Britons describing themselves as white falls

Figures from the 2021 census show 81.7 per cent of residents in England and Wales identified their ethnic group as white on the day of the 2021 census, down from 86 per cent a decade earlier,

www.dailymail.co.uk

Personally I don't see what the fuss is about. Don't see why it merits more than a shrug. There was a time before this country was Christian (and the process of it becoming so was a very drawn-out, multi-stage, complex one, involving a significant degree of violence), and now it's moved on.

The only constant in life is change. Nothing lasts forever - friends and family members die, nations and ideologies rise and fall, computer components die (that last one is particularly bothersome).

 

[Pens1566]

It's called progress ...

 

[kage69]

Good for them.

Less harmful dogma and sexual assault is hard to argue with, go figure.

 

[mikeymikec]

I thought that happened some time ago too.

"The archbishop of York, Stephen Cottrell, said the census result “throws down a challenge to us not only to trust that God will build his kingdom on Earth but also to play our part in making Christ known”."

Huh. Because it says to me that you and yours had your time and you didn't exactly go out of your way to accomplish heaven on earth.

 

[pmv]

I'm actually a little intrigued by some of that data.

For one thing, judging from the Mail's maps, %religious and %white appear to be inversely related. I suppose that's not surprising - BME populations correlate with migrant populations, and the latter seem to be much more likely to be religious than the long-settled population (lots of Catholic Poles and Christian Africans, as well as Muslims).

But I'm quite puzzled about the geographic-distribution of non-belief. Why is it especially present in post-industrial South Wales, plus the South Coast of England? Those are pretty different types of region in other respects.

While religion hangs on in there in the North-West - and it seems that's Christianity as much as Islam. I wonder if the presence of Muslims causes others to gravitate more strongly to Christianity, as a sort of reaction?

Having listened to podcasts about British history, that delved into the history of the warring Christian and Pagan kingdoms I find it interesting that Christianity seems to be retreating to what was once Northumbria.

 

[sdifox]

White Jesus is a Lie!

 

[IronWing]

England threw in the towel on Christianity when Henry VIII wanted a new bounce.

 

[sdifox]

England threw in the towel on Christianity when Henry VIII wanted a new bounce.

I thought it was quite Machiavellian of him to consolidate power that way.

 

[pmv]

England threw in the towel on Christianity when Henry VIII wanted a new bounce.

I don't think that was it. That just changed the specific flavour of Christianity - they carried on killing each other in the name of their respective flavours for a long time after that.

The big change seems to have come much later in the industrial revolution, when everyone moved to the towns and left their old parish churches behind.

 

[IronWing]

I don't think that was it. That just changed the specific flavour of Christianity - they carried on killing each other in the name of their respective flavours for a long time after that.

The big change seems to have come much later in the industrial revolution, when everyone moved to the towns and left their old parish churches behind.

Meh, they can't even pull off a transubstantiation anymore. It's like Christmas with all sock and no candy.

 

[Commodus]

This is part of a broader trend, really. Christianity in Canada dropped from 62 percent to 53 percent between the 2017-2019 and 2021 censuses, for example. The US is relatively stubborn, but even then Pew estimates Christians will be in the minority as soon as 2045 in one scenario. That's not including Japan and other countries that have been primarily secular for a while.

I don't think there's much mystery to it. The shift is a combination of non-Christian immigrants with the general decline of religion, particularly among younger generations. And that trend is unlikely to change in developed nations — how do you pitch homophobic, pro-slavery and anti-science religious texts to a teen with a Pride pin on their jacket?

 

[Commodus]

I was thinking about what this article touched on — that the UK government may soon have to deal with the problems of building Christianity directly into many of its institutions. How does it handle that gracefully? It can't just wait until atheists are in the clear majority.

It could be particularly awkward for the monarchy. It's odd to have folks singing "God Save the King" when most of them don't believe in that god, and soon won't believe in any god. I suspect the UK will keep it as a strange curio because weaving religion out of the monarchy will mean ditching a large chunk of the tradition... and at that point, why keep the monarchy?

 

[Bitek]

So, will Dr Who keep doing Christmas specials?

This is an incredible milestone though concerning the nation's long, long history and influence on Christianity.

The collapse of the religion has been spectacular.

 

[Bitek]

I think the influence of this event (and associated racial demographic change) on US politics can't be understated.

I think there is a significant portion of the US population that sees this and is concerned this is our future. This is a huge driver in conservative circles where religiosity and anti immigrant sentiment combine.

This drives the Russia ideation as well.

 

[pmv]

England threw in the towel on Christianity when Henry VIII wanted a new bounce.

In passing Simon Jenkins in the Guardian today refers to that as "an earlier Brexit". Not a completely inaccurate description.

 

[Pens1566]

So, will Dr Who keep doing Christmas specials?

This is an incredible milestone though concerning the nation's long, long history and influence on Christianity.

The collapse of the religion has been spectacular.

Well it is technically a pagan holiday.

 

[pmv]

This is an incredible milestone though concerning the nation's long, long history and influence on Christianity.

Again, though, there was a time before the British Isles were Christianised. It was a long drawn out process as well, involving multiple waves of different forms of Christianity (that didn't always get on with each other, e.g. having angry conflicts over what the 'correct' dates were for the various festivals).
Belief systems come-and-go.

 

[WelshBloke]

That 49% is a way over estimate. A survey where they asked how many of you go to a church regularly or obay the tenants of any religion would probably not hit 15%.

 

[Commodus]

That 49% is a way over estimate. A survey where they asked how many of you go to a church regularly or obay the tenants of any religion would probably not hit 15%.

Let's use it as the conservative figure, then.

On that note, the Canada census data I gave is likely also overstating the clout of religion. The largest portion of Christians in the country, Catholics (about 30 percent of the total population), are typically Quebec residents who think of themselves as "ethnic" Catholics. That is, they were baptized Catholic but don't hold the beliefs and don't attend church. There's a chance Canada is already a Christian-minority country, and might even be primarily non-religious.

 

[rommelrommel]

Let's use it as the conservative figure, then.

On that note, the Canada census data I gave is likely also overstating the clout of religion. The largest portion of Christians in the country, Catholics (about 30 percent of the total population), are typically Quebec residents who think of themselves as "ethnic" Catholics. That is, they were baptized Catholic but don't hold the beliefs and don't attend church. There's a chance Canada is already a Christian-minority country, and might even be primarily non-religious.

Yeah, if there was a threshold beyond vague belief that there probably is a god of some sort I think the numbers would be a lot lower in Canada. Even a good proportion of church goers go because it’s a social thing or they hope it’s a good influence on their kids.

 

[cytg111]

That is a bit of regression though… I’d like to see the number of people that identifies as Muslim fall too. I mean how whack do you to be to believe in magic people in the skies, zombies angels and demons? I’d just like for bigger percentage of the human population to not be straight up whack.

 

[WelshBloke]

That is a bit of regression though… I’d like to see the number of people that identifies as Muslim fall too. I mean how whack do you to be to believe in magic people in the skies, zombies angels and demons? I’d just like for bigger percentage of the human population to not be straight up whack.

It's under 7% in the UK, and that includes 'cultural Muslims' as well as religious ones (if that distinction makes sense).

But yeah, less organised religion in general would be nice.

 

[Moonbeam]

We will always have religion in one form or another. To be enlightened is to be liberal. People who have died and gone to heaven will always want to share their bliss with others just as liberals will seek to share their deeper understanding of politics with shallower people. They will always seek to lay a groundwork for others to follow. People who have not themselves freed themselves from their own self hate will consciously and unconsciously seek to throw shade on any upward path. Misery loves company and wants no other to escape. As in politics so in religion. Those who know will try to help those who don't.

 

[Commodus]

That is a bit of regression though… I’d like to see the number of people that identifies as Muslim fall too. I mean how whack do you to be to believe in magic people in the skies, zombies angels and demons? I’d just like for bigger percentage of the human population to not be straight up whack.

That will likely take a generational shift. The parents who emigrated to the UK may be clearly Muslim, but their kids or grandkids might not be so closely attached. Especially in a society where those kids' peers are less and less likely to have any religious attachment.

My theory is that humanity as a whole is likely to drop religion entirely, but that it will take a long time and involve a regional split. North America and Europe are moving quickly because they're wealthy countries with strong education systems and economic opportunities. People in those regions are more likely to be aware of the scientific evidence contradicting religion and, importantly, have the luxury of exploring those ideas.

In Africa and Asia, those advantages are rarer. A laborer in Islamabad may never even have a chance to go to college or university, let alone the free time to contemplate the validity of religion. Combine that with a greater number of theocracies and they're just not going to secularize any time soon. That will only come if and when economic, educational and democratic conditions improve. I can see it happening, but it may be a case where the secular trend chips away at these conditions from the outside.

 

[cytg111]

That will likely take a generational shift. The parents who emigrated to the UK may be clearly Muslim, but their kids or grandkids might not be so closely attached. Especially in a society where those kids' peers are less and less likely to have any religious attachment.

My theory is that humanity as a whole is likely to drop religion entirely, but that it will take a long time and involve a regional split. North America and Europe are moving quickly because they're wealthy countries with strong education systems and economic opportunities. People in those regions are more likely to be aware of the scientific evidence contradicting religion and, importantly, have the luxury of exploring those ideas.

In Africa and Asia, those advantages are rarer. A laborer in Islamabad may never even have a chance to go to college or university, let alone the free time to contemplate the validity of religion. Combine that with a greater number of theocracies and they're just not going to secularize any time soon. That will only come if and when economic, educational and democratic conditions improve. I can see it happening, but it may be a case where the secular trend chips away at these conditions from the outside.

You put some thought into this, yea, I think this sounds very plausible.