UK is with the times. Destroys guardian HD, hilarity ensues.

Attic

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2010
4,282
2
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I feel like i'm reading an Onion article.


Edit: Few folks saying it was simply done to send a message of power and control. If this is what other journalists face for reporting the truth then you can bet more than a few will stand down. Taken with the act of detaining Greenwalds partner I think that makes sense.
 
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mmntech

Lifer
Sep 20, 2007
17,504
12
0
This whole situation is an embarrassing situation for both the United States and the United Kingdom. However, not for reasons their governments would like to think. America has abandoned its core values by spying on their own people and those of allied nations in the name of protecting against terrorism. The UK in this situation looks like America's puppet. Free nations do not threaten journalists. Thus the US and UK are no longer free. Though they probably never were.

What we have here I'm coining now as the Second Cold War. One that's been going on since 9/11 and continues to this day with ever increasing paranoia.
 

z1ggy

Lifer
May 17, 2008
10,004
63
91
This whole situation is an embarrassing situation for both the United States and the United Kingdom. However, not for reasons their governments would like to think. America has abandoned its core values by spying on their own people and those of allied nations in the name of protecting against terrorism. The UK in this situation looks like America's puppet. Free nations do not threaten journalists. Thus the US and UK are no longer free. Though they probably never were.

What we have here I'm coining now as the Second Cold War. One that's been going on since 9/11 and continues to this day with ever increasing paranoia.

As sick as it sounds 9/11 was one of the best things for the American goverment that could ever have happened. Whether or not they knew or were involved in anyway is irrelevent...What it did do though is open up a doorway into blanketing us with the whole mindset of giving up a little freedom, for the sake of protection. It also allowed them to get their foot in the door of the middle east and continue to escalate wars for big business profits.

The whole point of this spying program is to keep tabs on lay folk. WE represent the true threat to the government...Not some 3rd world terrorist.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,478
7,532
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The whole point of this spying program is to keep tabs on lay folk. WE represent the true threat to the government...Not some 3rd world terrorist.

Then that threat must be realized. They must be voted out.

The problem is people _think_ they did that in 2008.
 

Juddog

Diamond Member
Dec 11, 2006
7,852
6
81
Then that threat must be realized. They must be voted out.

The problem is people _think_ they did that in 2008.

The political system is broken right now.

Whether you vote right wing or left wing, it's no different than voting for one leg or another to take turns kicking you in the ass.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,775
9,757
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TerryMathews

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,473
2
0
As sick as it sounds 9/11 was one of the best things for the American goverment that could ever have happened. Whether or not they knew or were involved in anyway is irrelevent...What it did do though is open up a doorway into blanketing us with the whole mindset of giving up a little freedom, for the sake of protection. It also allowed them to get their foot in the door of the middle east and continue to escalate wars for big business profits.

The whole point of this spying program is to keep tabs on lay folk. WE represent the true threat to the government...Not some 3rd world terrorist.

Which casts into stark relief their efforts to attack the second amendment. Our literal pressure valve against a tyrannical government.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
126
National Review's take:

http://nationalreview.com/article/356281/lies-truth-and-guardian-john-osullivan/page/0/1

This is page 1 of 2.

When someone is caught lying about scandalous misconduct, any allegation about him is believed thereafter. When a government is caught spying on ordinary people, any investigation is assumed to be an unjustified abuse of power. And when the government justifies its investigation as protecting official secrets, the secrecy is dismissed as either needless or sinister.

In this climate, defenders of reasonable official secrecy and legitimate intelligence operations run for cover. Most people accept in the abstract that some secrecy is justified — for instance, defending the identities of our own spies who might be imprisoned or killed if identified — but they are cowed into silence or acquiescence by the mob which, having discovered some official misconduct, treats all official conduct as criminal or oppressive.

The NSA’s wholesale spying on people’s electronic communications — together with the apparent weakness or failure of oversight agencies — has created just such a climate. It is one of the worst effects of this official overreach. And the result yesterday was that almost all reporters, commentators, editors, and bloggers swallowed– equally wholesale — some lies peddled by the Guardian about the nine-hour detention in Heathrow Airport of David Miranda, the partner of Glenn Greenwald, a Guardian reporter who has collaborated with Edward Snowden in breaking stories taken from the CIA files stolen by the former.

As was the case with the first Wikieaks publication two years ago, some stories revealed abuses, some, legitimately confidential government conversations; some, vital state secrets. When Miranda was stopped and interrogated, however, the story quickly disseminated, repeated endlessly, and almost universally believed was that the government’s motive was to intimidate the partner of a reporter in order to punish the Guardian for its reporting. Many writers who might previously have been skeptical about this account joined the chorus. The “intimidation” thesis soon gelled into an orthodoxy.

Among the very few people to ask awkward questions about it are Louise Mensch, a former Tory MP and freelance blogger, and Dan Hodges, a “Blairite” blogger on the Daily Telegraph website. Ms. Mensch is more forensically devastating than Mr. Hodges, who in turn is more wittily sarcastic than Ms. Mensch. Both are “must reads,” though. Together they blow the Guardian’s account and the mob orthodoxy out of the water. Indeed, they convict the Guardian and its correspondent, Mr. Greenwald, of telling a succession of lies about Mr. Miranda’s detention. And they demonstrate that the mob of independent minds was guilty of deep incuriosity about what the Authorized Version said and, more important, what it concealed.

Take Ms. Mensch first. Among the several arguments offered by Greenwald and the Guardian that she demolishes are the following:

He [Miranda] is my partner. He is not even a journalist.

Maybe, maybe not; but the Guardian was paying for his air fare.

David [Miranda] was not allowed to have a lawyer present.

Except that, as the Guardian later wrote, he was offered a lawyer and a cup of water, but he refused both.

It’s clear why they took me. It’s because I’m Glenn’s partner. Because I went to Berlin. Because Laura [Poitras, a film director making a movie about Wikileaks] lives there. So they think I have a big connection. But I don’t have a role. I don’t look at documents. I don’t even know if it was documents that I was carrying.

Hang on, he was carrying documents! What kind of documents? And what was his reply when he was asked the standard security question: Has anyone given you something to carry on board?

As Dan Hodges points out, it’s very unlikely that he replied, “Yes, but I’m not sure what. Some documents for the Guardian and for my partner, the famous leaker of official secrets. They’re encrypted, so I don’t know what’s in them, but probably nothing very interesting.”

In fact Greenwald subsequently confirmed that all the documents came from the trove of materials provided to the two journalists by Snowden. They were on encrypted thumb drives. The thumb drives were among the electronic gadgets confiscated from Miranda by intelligence agents. And those encrypted documents all but certainly contained official secrets whose disclosure would be highly damaging to Britain (and, by extension, to the U.S.).

How do we know that? Because Greenwald very obligingly told us so, in an interview with a Brazilian TV station:

I am going to write my stories a lot more aggressively now. I’m going to publish a lot about England too. I have a lot of documents about the espionage system in England. Now my focus is going to be on that.

That sounds like a silly, resentful, and petulant remark — damning and disabling qualities in someone who is claiming the right to determine what official secrets should and should not be published. But the remark takes on more chilling overtones when one recalls that the information stolen from the CIA (and perhaps from MI6) about “the espionage system in England” probably contains the names of agents who, if they become known, may suffer badly for it. Remember that Greenwald is an ally in this matter of Julian Assange, who, when that possibility was put to him by reporters in an earlier context, said brutally that these people were “informants” and deserved all they got.

Dan Hodges sums up this reality very well as follows:

A man arrives at Heathrow airport. He’s not a journalist, but someone carrying a mystery package for a friend. What he’s carrying could, by common consent, have huge implications for the national security of the UK if it fell into the wrong hands. By definition, the wrong hands could include terrorists.

What do we honestly expect the UK authorities to do? Give him a sly wink and say “off you go son, you have a nice trip”?

It’s clear David Miranda wasn’t stopped because he was Glenn Greenwald’s partner. He was stopped because he was suspected of carrying classified information highly detrimental to the UK national interest. And if we don’t stop people because of that, who do we stop?


In the relatively short time since Mensch and Hodges posted their arguments, there has been a multitude of hostile responses online to them. Some were silly, some thoughtful. Most reflected the generalized suspicion that since the NSA had spied on people worldwide, almost any attack on official secrecy and Western intelligence was justified — presumably even if it makes mass terrorism easier. But the most substantive was a technical legal argument that stealing and transporting official secrets across international boundaries did not constitute terrorism under the relevant law — with the implication that if it did not, then Miranda’s detention was unjustified.
 

gevorg

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2004
5,075
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--- internal secret government memo ---

Lately, especially after Snowden revelations, the common folk started doing too much thinking over the kitchen table. They're not swallowing the NSA domestic spying like they swallowed the Patriot Act. The terrorist boogeyman must be inflated even more...
 

Caravaggio

Senior member
Aug 3, 2013
508
1
0
This whole situation is an embarrassing situation for both the United States and the United Kingdom. However, not for reasons their governments would like to think. America has abandoned its core values by spying on their own people and those of allied nations in the name of protecting against terrorism. The UK in this situation looks like America's puppet. Free nations do not threaten journalists.
Exactly, you can almost see the proud little faces on the Foreign Office staff saying " we really helped America today, perhaps that nice Mr. Obama will say we still have a 'special relationship'.
This absence of principle and the failure to distinguish between a threat and an embarrassment is puke-worthy in the extreme.
While the Brazilian journalist/courier was indeed harassed for nine hours, he was released. In Turkey he would have gone straight to jail, so some gradation of vileness is still discernible.

Does any of this remind you of the plot of George Orwell's 1984?
There was a continuous war with an unnamed enemy, everyone was under observation at all times, no one could trust a friend, a wife or lover. All communication was monitored.
That dystopia was inspired by the Soviet show trials of the late 1930's. How do we stop this gradual erosion of freedoms when we are told that this restraint is reluctantly made necessary by "a war on terror"?
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,775
9,757
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@ Atreus21

"Suspected of carrying classified information" involves what exactly? Nothing concrete whatsoever. Some circumstantial evidence. Then he was stopped for nine hours and interrogated about his life rather than addressing the suspicion of carrying classified documents, apparently on encrypted flash drives would probably can't be practically decrypted by force in an appreciable time frame yet they were probably confiscated whether or not they stored anything that might be construed as belonging to the UK government. If they were confiscated and didn't contain anything possibly seen as belonging to the UK government, then basically they were stolen from him.

What has this accomplished apart from scare tactics by the government? To those who aren't scared by the tactics at face value, it just shows an organisation that should be accountable to the people but aren't (and being potentially accountable to people who are willing to sweep anything under the carpet is tantamount to being not accountable at all), and they have way too much access to mess with our lives. If their systems were compromised surreptitiously, the danger to the UK would be far greater than if one of most military facilities (or many government facilities) were.
 
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Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
This whole situation is an embarrassing situation for both the United States and the United Kingdom. However, not for reasons their governments would like to think. America has abandoned its core values by spying on their own people and those of allied nations in the name of protecting against terrorism. The UK in this situation looks like America's puppet. Free nations do not threaten journalists. Thus the US and UK are no longer free. Though they probably never were.

What we have here I'm coining now as the Second Cold War. One that's been going on since 9/11 and continues to this day with ever increasing paranoia.

Not really surprising when you think about it. The UK's Terrorism Act is from 2000, before 9/11 and targeted against the people of Northern Ireland. When 9/11 happened the US jumped on the anti-terrorism bandwagon of the UK and Israel. They are sacrificing their core beliefs for the sake of safety against people who just want their freedom back.

As Kurzweil once said, the truth is already here, just unevenly distributed.
 

LostPassword

Member
Dec 2, 2007
197
1
81
well, it wasn't really about destroying the evidence. it was about intimidation. the UK sent the message that they will fuck your shit up if you dare write this NSA or GSH whatever story. same thing they did with that miranda guy. Try to scare them.
but it backfired. you mess with journalists, well they can just write a bad story about you lol. and now glenn is going to publish UK secrets.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
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Uh, is there any evidence the UK gov't thought destroying the HDD's would destroy all copies of said data and/or stop reporting on Snowden by Guardian/Greenwald generally? The OP's points seems odd and mostly devoid of much thought. More likely they were following orders and/or regs that required such classified information destruction. Nothing particularly odd about this, except to laymen's who've never had to sanitize sensitive data.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,775
9,757
136
Uh, is there any evidence the UK gov't thought destroying the HDD's would destroy all copies of said data and/or stop reporting on Snowden by Guardian/Greenwald generally? The OP's points seems odd and mostly devoid of much thought. More likely they were following orders and/or regs that required such classified information destruction. Nothing particularly odd about this, except to laymen's who've never had to sanitize sensitive data.

The whole exercise is laughable to begin with, frankly what difference does it make what the UK government thought it would accomplish in any technical sense.
 

Auric

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 1999
9,596
2
71
Does any of this remind you of the plot of George Orwell's 1984?
There was a continuous war with an unnamed enemy, everyone was under observation at all times, no one could trust a friend, a wife or lover. All communication was monitored.
That dystopia was inspired by the Soviet show trials of the late 1930's. How do we stop this gradual erosion of freedoms when we are told that this restraint is reluctantly made necessary by "a war on terror"?

More tellingly, it was inspired by his (Eric Blair's) experience with propaganda working at the BBC during WWII. You know, when "The Third Reich was trying to take over the world" at a time when The Third Empire actually already had. Also, lest we forget the phony maps purporting aforementioned aim and provided by British secret intelligence service for Roosevelt to use against the people à la contemporary Iraq yellowcake disinformation. WAR IS PEACE. FREEDOM IS SLAVERY. IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
The whole exercise is laughable to begin with, frankly what difference does it make what the UK government thought it would accomplish in any technical sense.

It matters if you want to understand why they did it. But yes, it was pointless in a larger sense, that I agree with.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,775
9,757
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It matters if you want to understand why they did it. But yes, it was pointless in a larger sense, that I agree with.

Several people have already probably guessed correctly as to why they did it, it's an intimidation tactic as part of the UK's agreement to act as the US's favourite lapdog.
 

Ancalagon44

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2010
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