Uh-oh, the credit rating agencies are up to their old tricks again

Oldgamer

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
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This needs to be stopped in it's tracks. Seriously if they (congress and the feds) don't reign in what these banks are doing on wrapping bad loans into good loans and selling them like they are AAA rated to investors we are going to end up with another economic crash.

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As far as financial crisis villains go, the credit rating agencies never get enough, well, credit. But now they're reminding us that even—or especially—nincompoops can blow up the global economy when you play them off against each other with the promise of a quick buck.

The history of the crash goes something like this. Lenders made (or misled people into) mortgages that couldn't be paid back. Then, with the magic of math, banks claimed that bundles of these crappy loans were actually as good as gold—or Treasury bonds—since, the story went, they wouldn't all go bad at once. That was enough for the credit rating agencies to put their top-rated, AAA stamp of approval on this financial alchemy. Which was enough for investors to gobble up all this toxic waste. Subprime bonds, after all, paid better than Treasuries, but were supposed to be just as safe.

They weren't. That's because mortgage defaults weren't uncorrelated; they were contagious. So there wasn't any safety in numbers when it came to these dodgy loans. That was bad news for the investors who had bought this junk. And for the banks that hadn't been able to sell all this junk, while leveraging themselves to the hilt. That started a run on the banks that turned into a run on every asset in the world, as fire sales made everything but government-guaranteed debt look worthless.

It wasn't bad news, though, for the credit rating agencies. They made their money rating bonds, and only rating bonds. If it turned out their ratings were garbage, and contributed to a once-in-three-generations crisis—well, oops. But thanks for all the fees! It was one part incompetence, and another part incentives. See, there's a not-entirely-unfair caricature of the credit rating agencies as the dregs of the financial world. They are, in large part, the people who couldn't get jobs on Wall Street, and they can be a bit too credulous of the people who did. (Especially when they want to go there one day).

But as dim as the credit rating agencies might be, they aren't so dim that they can't perceive their own self-interest. And that's getting paid to rate bonds. Here's why that's a problem. There are three major credit rating agencies, but Wall Street only needs one of them to rate a bond. So a bank can ask all of them what rating they would give a bond, and then go with the one that rates it highest. This "ratings shopping," of course, gives credit rating agencies good reason—i.e., their bottom lines—to give banks the ratings they want. There's no point being Cassandra if it drives you out of business.

Dodd-Frank didn't fix this, and now it's coming back. Tracy Alloway of the Financial Times reports that banks are once again asking around to get AAA ratings on dubious bonds. One way to tell is that Fitch has only "been hired for four of the 29 subprime auto ABS deals this year, after telling issuers that the vast majority of bonds did not deserve AAA ratings." Now, the good news is that the subprime auto loan market isn't nearly as big, or systemically important, as the subprime mortgage market was before the crash. But the bad news is that we haven't gotten rid of the credit rating agencies' perverse incentives to rate bonds better than they deserve just to drum up business.

It was dumb enough to create a system that encourages the credit rating agencies to take a Panglossian view of the bonds they're supposedly rating. It'd be even dumber to leave it in place after we've seen what a disaster it is.

Link to News Source
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
8,232
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It's worked out so well in the past. You know, expecting or even relying on government to fix financial problems. Haven't we learned anything?

This is going places...
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,254
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It's worked out so well in the past. You know, expecting or even relying on government to fix financial problems. Haven't we learned anything?

This is going places...

You realize that since the significant regulation of finance by governments the number of financial crises, bank panics, etc, has gone way down, right?

Did you mean that the lesson we should learn is that government is quite effective at fixing financial problems?
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
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It's worked out so well in the past. You know, expecting or even relying on government to fix financial problems. Haven't we learned anything?

This is going places...

Your partisan lameness knows no bounds. Ratings agencies are private business.
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
8,232
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You realize that since the significant regulation of finance by governments the number of financial crises, bank panics, etc, has gone way down, right?

Did you mean that the lesson we should learn is that government is quite effective at fixing financial problems?

I always use panic and crisis as a measuring tool. It's best to only look to avoid extremes. :\
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
8,232
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What would you like to look at instead?

Oh I don't know. Personal responsibility sounds like something worth working towards. Don't give credit agencies a reason to start screwing around to begin with. Or we can just use government to Band-aid another problem.

I don't have the answers, but I know that government isn't going to really fix anything.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,254
55,808
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Oh I don't know. Personal responsibility sounds like something worth working towards. Don't give credit agencies a reason to start screwing around to begin with. Or we can just use government to Band-aid another problem.

I don't have the answers, but I know that government isn't going to really fix anything.

It seems odd to say that you don't know how to fix something but are sure that government can't fix it.
 

Attic

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2010
4,282
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The system needs more debt. Rating agencies up to old games is a symptom (one of many), not the cause.

I don't think it's a government invovlement (more regulation) vs less regulation. I think it's a misdiagnosis of the core issue.

I think issues like this that the OP highlights leads back to more status quo type shenags. Need a bulldog in there to find solutions, Lady Warren seems to be the most upfront about dealing with these types of core issues the nation faces. Hopefully with her it is not just a thin veneer as it was with Obummer.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,254
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Only to someone who is pro government.

No, it would be odd for any problem. If you say you have no idea how to fix something it probably means you wouldn't know if government (or anything else) were capable of fixing it or not.

The intervention of the government in other aspects of finance has demonstrably improved things. Maybe it would here as well. Seems worth exploring instead of engaging in reflexive ideological anti-government thinking don't you think?
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
8,232
2
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No, it would be odd for any problem. If you say you have no idea how to fix something it probably means you wouldn't know if government (or anything else) were capable of fixing it or not.

I didn't say I had no idea. I even gave you an idea. I did say that I don't have all the answers.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,254
55,808
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I didn't say I had no idea. I even gave you an idea. I did say that I don't have all the answers.

I don't consider that idea to be even remotely specific enough to count, but to each their own.

The reflexive anti-government stuff is always so strange to me. Shouldn't we just look for the best solution and not care what the source of that solution is?
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
Oh I don't know. Personal responsibility sounds like something worth working towards. Don't give credit agencies a reason to start screwing around to begin with. Or we can just use government to Band-aid another problem.

I don't have the answers, but I know that government isn't going to really fix anything.

"Personal Responsibility" in what way, exactly?

Or is that just the usual feel good platitude?

Maybe the fact that they compete for securitizers' business gives them reason to screw around in the first place...
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
I don't consider that idea to be even remotely specific enough to count, but to each their own.

The reflexive anti-government stuff is always so strange to me. Shouldn't we just look for the best solution and not care what the source of that solution is?

Reflexive anti-gubmint sentiment is the result of decades of propaganda. "Smaller govt is better" is a belief promulgated by people who know that smaller govt is just easier to buy or subvert.
 

Oldgamer

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
3,280
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Oh I don't know. Personal responsibility sounds like something worth working towards. Don't give credit agencies a reason to start screwing around to begin with. Or we can just use government to Band-aid another problem.

I don't have the answers, but I know that government isn't going to really fix anything.

If you really believe in that whole "personal responsibility" stuff then you would agree that these banks and many CEO's who run these banks should have gone to jail for what they did in 2008, and should also go to jail now for attempting the same things again that caused the crash. In addition you would agree that we shouldn't bail them out when they crash our economy and their banks go belly up....right?
 

Oldgamer

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
3,280
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Reflexive anti-gubmint sentiment is the result of decades of propaganda. "Smaller govt is better" is a belief promulgated by people who know that smaller govt is just easier to buy or subvert.

It's that whole "non critical thinking" and "brainwashed on talking points" issue with some..they don't understand some things so they just parrot all the anti-gubment cliche's.
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
8,232
2
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If you really believe in that whole "personal responsibility" stuff then you would agree that these banks and many CEO's who run these banks should have gone to jail for what they did in 2008, and should also go to jail now for attempting the same things again that caused the crash. In addition you would agree that we shouldn't bail them out when they crash our economy and their banks go belly up....right?

Who says I don't agree with those things?
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
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What Fitch doesn't say is that the bulk of non-Fitch rated subprime bonds are not rated AAA, many aren't even rated AA. Furthermore, of those that are rated higher than A, many can withstand net losses of 50%+. Even assuming a 70% loss severity would mean that you'd have to have ~70% of your borrowers defaulting.

That's a pretty tough hurdle unless you're talking very deep subprime, like sub 530 stuff. Even then, the absolute number is very high and you still have collateral.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
What Fitch doesn't say is that the bulk of non-Fitch rated subprime bonds are not rated AAA, many aren't even rated AA. Furthermore, of those that are rated higher than A, many can withstand net losses of 50%+. Even assuming a 70% loss severity would mean that you'd have to have ~70% of your borrowers defaulting.

That's a pretty tough hurdle unless you're talking very deep subprime, like sub 530 stuff. Even then, the absolute number is very high and you still have collateral.

They had collateral in 2008, iirc, plus derivative hedging until Hell wouldn't have it.
 

Sonikku

Lifer
Jun 23, 2005
15,916
4,959
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Forget government interference. I'm sure if we just let the free market straighten everything out and let the industry self regulate that these kinds of issues will get solved in no time.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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What Fitch doesn't say is that the bulk of non-Fitch rated subprime bonds are not rated AAA, many aren't even rated AA. Furthermore, of those that are rated higher than A, many can withstand net losses of 50%+. Even assuming a 70% loss severity would mean that you'd have to have ~70% of your borrowers defaulting.

That's a pretty tough hurdle unless you're talking very deep subprime, like sub 530 stuff. Even then, the absolute number is very high and you still have collateral.
Isn't this pretty much the same thing that crashed the economy though? Yes, you have collateral, but (A) your collateral might be worth only a fraction of its claimed value and (B) a 50% loss might well be a possibility. Put those two things together and you've got a recipe for disaster.