Uh-oh, the credit rating agencies are up to their old tricks again

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LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Isn't this pretty much the same thing that crashed the economy though? Yes, you have collateral, but (A) your collateral might be worth only a fraction of its claimed value and (B) a 50% loss might well be a possibility. Put those two things together and you've got a recipe for disaster.

How so? If the LTV is reasonable and the condition of the vehicle reasonable and the repossession costs low, as long as vehicle prices maintain a decent value the recovery value is reasonable. Right now most companies that write <100% LTV loans are experiencing ~60% recovery rate, ~120-130% LTV Is ~40% recovery rate. Even a decline in the Manheim of 20% would only put recovery rates at 30-50%. Considering that the average age of vehicles on the road is now ~2yrs older than pre-crisis and that people are holding cars longer, it's difficult to see how you reasonably get there. Especially considering that the senior tranches delever quickly. These aren't 30 year IO mortgages, they are usually 5-6yr car loans that amortize naturally over a relatively quick period. The A2 AAA tranche of most of these bonds begin paying within 10 months, meaning that by that time 10-20% of the bonds have paid off, then the A2 has an additional 20% of enhancement, making the scenario in which you lose money one where 100% of the loans would have to default with a 70% loss severity to hit the bonds.

Do you see a reasonable scenario where car values will fall 30% *AND* 100% of every single surviving loan will default? There's absolutely not catalyst out there that would make cars fall 30% when the supply is still tight. Maybe in 2-3 years you could see them falling due to more cars coming off lease, or rental fleets defleeting during turnovers. Car manufacturers aren't stamping out cars en-masse with incentives, so that's staying relatively sane.

The market has actually pulled back from mid/late 2013 and early 2014. LTVs are down a little, FICOs are up, and rates are actually up.

I think the one thing that could change the equation is the lengthening of terms. In order to afford the more expensive vehicles they are just pushing the terms out. If you're a subordinate tranche, maybe a 3-4yr weighted average life, you could be in trouble, but I usually don't buy there. But those aren't AAA tranches and aren't usually the front-pay "A" rated tranches. They are 3-4th in line "A" rated tranches.

I'm about as bearish as they come on subprime auto but these articles are ridiculous.

There's also a key difference between houses and cars. Nobody is taking out cars as an investment and most are just buying a Chevy to get to work. The utility is only lost if the car breaks down which, in the case of deep subprime auto, may be more frequently but that's again usually the back-end bonds. Furthermore, you still need to get to work. You can't just get rid of your car and go get another car very easily, unless you file for bankruptcy, turn your car in, then are underwritten by a specialty shop like Tidewater, to be a good credit on the backside of the bankruptcy. Those are pretty rare. The choice to ride the bus or take the train is limited for the vast majority of Americans. Thus, a car is what you get.
 
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LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
They had collateral in 2008, iirc, plus derivative hedging until Hell wouldn't have it.

Except there was one fundamental issue with the models and the collateral - they allowed no room for values to go down. Car securitzations automatically assume that the car is worth a lot less than the loan.

As far as the "derivative hedging" - very few people who were buying subprime mortgage securitization were buying CDS. Most were perfectly long.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Uh-oh, the credit rating agencies are up to their old tricks again

This needs to be stopped in it's tracks. Seriously if they (congress and the feds) don't reign in what these banks are doing on wrapping bad loans into good loans and selling them like they are AAA rated to investors we are going to end up with another economic crash.

The rich boys never lose money.

They will gain from this just as they did in 2008.

The only losers is the American working stiffs.

9-17-2014

http://news.yahoo.com/us-stocks-tick-ahead-fed-decision-145729257.html

Dow closes at record high after Fed holds policy course



The Dow Jones Industrial Average rose by 24.88 points (0.15 percent) to 17,156.85, breaking the prior record by about 18 points.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,471
3,589
126
The rich boys never lose money.

:hmm:

difference between 2008 and 2009 'rich boys' report:
373 [billionaires] fell off the list&#8211;355 from declining fortunes and 18 who died.
(snip)
The world&#8217;s richest are also a lot poorer. Their collective net worth is $2.4 trillion, down $2 trillion from a year ago.

http://www.forbes.com/2009/03/11/worlds-richest-people-billionaires-2009-billionaires-intro.html

Not sure losing almost 50% of their collective wealth = never losing money
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
It seems odd to say that you don't know how to fix something but are sure that government can't fix it.

It's not at all odd. I may not know how to cure your cancer, but I'm pretty sure lighting you on fire isn't the solution.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
197
106
You realize that since the significant regulation of finance by governments the number of financial crises, bank panics, etc, has gone way down, right?

Hang on a minute.

Awhile back you were arguing government oversight contributes to financial instability. You use those arguments when justifying the existence of the federal reserve.

Now you say government oversight and regulations are good?

Make up your mind.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
Bank inspectors should have just come out and said you cant bundle loans together and sell them. If you look at how they rated these bundled products, then, it makes sense to question if these rating agencies can rate other stocks and bonds. They obviously should have all gone to jail already or been convicted of fraud or misleading investors. Where is the SEC?

The government is just as likely to fail with big business. Larger companies and larger banks can afford bigger bribes.

I don't understand how a bank can charge 18% interest (or more like 40%) on a credit card but only give depositors 1% or less interest on your cash. This is what I would fix first.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,503
50,659
136
Hang on a minute.

Awhile back you were arguing government oversight contributes to financial instability. You use those arguments when justifying the existence of the federal reserve.

Now you say government oversight and regulations are good?

Make up your mind.

I never argued that, ever. If you think I did, quote the relevant post.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
197
106
I never argued that, ever. If you think I did, quote the relevant post.

Here ya go,

The whole point of having the Fed be independent is to keep Congress from meddling in monetary policy for political reasons.

This is Congress meddling in monetary policy for political reasons. Regardless of your political persuasion you should be able to see why that's a really, really bad idea.

Just two months ago you were saying the government should stay out of monetary policy.

Now you say government oversight is good?
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,503
50,659
136
Here ya go,

Just two months ago you were saying the government should stay out of monetary policy.

Now you say government oversight is good?

The regulation of the financial industry and how we conduct monetary policy are two completely, utterly different things.

The only way someone would interpret me saying 'Congress should stay out of monetary policy' as being the equivalent to 'Congress shouldn't regulate finance' is if that person had literally zero understanding of either.

This is one of those cases I think where you're so ignorant you don't even know what it is you don't know.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
197
106
This is one of those cases I think where you're so ignorant you don't even know what it is you don't know.

This is a case where you are talking out of both sides of your mouth and got caught.

If government oversight is good, why do we need the fed?

If the federal reserve is supposed to stabilize the financial industry, why do we need government regulations?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,503
50,659
136
This is a case where you are talking out of both sides of your mouth and got caught.

No, this is a case where you know so little about the topic that you don't even know what you're trying to ask about.

If government oversight is good, why do we need the fed?

If federal reserve is supposed to stabilize the financial industry, why do we need government regulations?

Because the fed handles monetary policy and the federal government handles regulation of financial transactions. They are two completely different things.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
197
106
No, this is a case where you know so little about the topic that you don't even know what you're trying to ask about.

Because the fed handles monetary policy and the federal government handles regulation of financial transactions. They are two completely different things.

You have argued till you were blue in the face that the federal reserve is supposed to stabilize the banks and markets.

When the government can do the same thing, why do we need the federal reserve.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,503
50,659
136
You have argued till you were blue in the face that the federal reserve is supposed to stabilize the banks and markets.

When the government can do the same thing, why do we need the federal reserve.

They both act to stabilize banks and markets, just in different ways.

Jesus christ.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
You have argued till you were blue in the face that the federal reserve is supposed to stabilize the banks and markets.

When the government can do the same thing, why do we need the federal reserve.

Except that the FRB, Congress & the executive branch have different roles as defined by law & custom. It's been that way for 100 years.

That's not to say that mistakes haven't been made, but rather to say that current FRB efforts are as they should be in the absence of action from the other necessary participants.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
197
106
They both act to stabilize banks and markets, just in different ways.

Now that we got that out of the way, what were you saying about government regulation being good?

I would like to know in detail more about what you said about government regulations (not federal reserve regulations) helping with "financial crises, bank panics, etc".

I am particularly interested what other examples you meant with "etc."

Why isn't the federal reserve and the government doing more to curb credit rating agencies like the examples in the opening post?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,503
50,659
136
Now that we got that out of the way, what were you saying about government regulation being good?

That government regulation is a good idea for financial markets. What didn't you understand?

I would like to know in detail more about what you said about government regulations (not federal reserve regulations) helping with "financial crises, bank panics, etc".

I am particularly interested what other examples you meant with "etc."

Go look at the regulations put in place during/after the great depression throughout the 20th century. There are lots of them. If I didn't have such a low opinion of you I would spell it out more thoroughly, but for someone like yourself I'm going to just say that you should educate yourself.

Why isn't the federal reserve and the government doing more to curb credit rating agencies like the examples in the opening post?

The federal reserve isn't doing more to curb credit rating agencies because the federal reserve isn't a regulatory body tasked with curbing the credit rating agencies.

The feds should do more.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
197
106
Go look at the regulations put in place during/after the great depression throughout the 20th century.

You like to preach to people about how dumb they are. Educate us.

I am going to open the door for you to ramble on. Please be exact about what regulations you like and why.

Isn't that what you ask from others, to be exact when giving examples? So I ask no less from you than you ask of others.

So please provide examples and be exact.

What regulations would you like to see to curb these credit ratings?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,503
50,659
136
You like to preach to people about how dumb they are. Educate us.

I am going to open the door for you to ramble on. Please be exact about what regulations you like and why.

Isn't that what you ask from others, to be exact when giving examples? So I ask no less from you than you ask of others.

So please provide examples and be exact.

What regulations would you like to see to curb these credit ratings?

I would do it for other people, but not for you. You've proven yourself to be too childish and dishonest.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
197
106
I would do it for other people, but not for you. You've proven yourself to be too childish and dishonest.

Next time you ask someone to provide examples, I will be sure to quote your very own post.

If you are not willing to provide examples and be exact, do not ask that of others.

Lead by example, provide examples to the government regulations you like.

What can the government do to curb credit ratings like in the opening post?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,503
50,659
136
Next time you ask someone to provide examples, I will be sure to quote your very own post.

If you are not willing to provide examples and be exact, do not ask that of others.

Lead by example, provide examples to the government regulations you like.

I hope you do! It will give me another opportunity to remind you of what a dishonest child you are. If you want to be treated better, start acting better.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
197
106
I hope you do! It will give me another opportunity to remind you of what a dishonest child you are. If you want to be treated better, start acting better.

What do you say we drop the tit for tat.

In general, theoretically, nothing exact, what can be done to curb the credit ratings like in the opening post?

We all know where this road is going. And that is a replay of 2008.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,503
50,659
136
What do you say we drop the tit for tat.

In general, theoretically, nothing exact, what can be done to curb the credit ratings like in the opening post?

We all know where this road is going. And that is a replay of 2008.

I would do it if I thought you were intellectually or emotionally capable of discussing the issue like an adult. Prove that to me in the future and we can engage all day on things like this. Think of it as an aspirational goal.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
197
106
Prove that to me in the future and we can engage all day on things like this.

Lulz, I do not have to prove anything to you.

You know what I would like to see? People who put out these fudged credit ratings thrown in jail.

But we all know the federal reserve and the government is not going to do that.