Uh, DX10 on XP is not a hoax.

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biostud

biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
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I'm wondering if OpenGL 3.0 would be a more interesting way to get "DX10 features" on XP
 
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Phlargo

Senior member
Jul 21, 2004
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I think is in many ways a poor move. This will definitely put some pressure on Vista as the "New" platform. People who were on the fence about adopting new technologies won't have to. I think MS was smart to make DX10 only going forward - they end up having to support older technologies for years and years by not taking a harder stance on technology upgrades. It hurts the overall progress and adoption of software technologies. But, that being said, I'll probably be sticking with XP a little longer than I would have :)
 
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tuteja1986

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2005
3,676
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Originally posted by: biostud
I'm wondering if OpenGL 3.0 would be a more interesting way to get "DX10 features" on XP
Click to expand...

nope.. not according to dev i know. Opengl don't have the manpower or $$$ to keep up with DX team.
 
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miniMUNCH

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2000
4,159
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DX10 on XP is not a hoax... but from the sounds of it, it looks to be emulation. Mapping DX10 calls such that DX9 drivers can 'understand'...

The performance penalty could range from small (10% drop) to huge (80-90% drop). Not to mention, there could be severe artifacting issues and a sundry of other bugs.

But if it pans out, that will be great for a lot PC gamers who are sticking with XP.

Although, seriously, I have found Vista to be pretty damn good.

 
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Matt2

Diamond Member
Jul 28, 2001
4,762
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As others before me have stated, it's only emulation. A conversion of DX10 calls to DX9. It's going to have piss poor performance too. If you don't believe that, I urge you to download a GLide wrapper and play a GLide game and tell me how it performs.

Not only is it guaranteed to be much slower than true DX10, people are bound to have problems with bugs, crashes and graphical corruption.

I still dont understand why people are still hating on Vista. I love Vista, no problems at all in any game I have played. Even Win95/98 games that refused to run properly on WinXP work correctly. Also, if you guys would bother reading some new benchmarks, Vista performance is quickly catching up to Windows XP. I think the HD2900XT review at DriverHeaven shows Vista to be within 5 fps of Windows XP.

I'm not saying that people arent having problems with Vista, I just dont think that Vista is so bad that you guys should rely on a friggin DX10 wrapper just to hold onto Windows XP.
 
apoppin

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
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alienbabeltech.com
what is going on with OpenGL right now is nothing short of exciting. After all the mumble of OpenGL 2.0 and its delays, this year will see no less than two new versions of this venerable API. First one that is coming out soon is Longs Peak (OpenGL 2.x), which is a major clean-up of the code after almost a decade and a half of nothing else but stacking numerous extensions together.

This API is supposed to arrive in summer timeframe, most probably July. Approximately three months after that, Mount Evans (OpenGL 3.0) will run specifically on hardware born after November 8th, 2006. You've guessed it correctly, we are talking about DirectX 10-class hardware, bringing all the features of unified 3D architecture to the world of OpenGL. Mount Evans is compatible with Longs Peak, but of course - you will require OpenGL 3.0 class hardware to run everything.

OpenGL 3.0 offers features such as instanced rendering, stream out of vertex data to a buffer, texture buffer objects, numerous new texture formats and so on. What is most important here is that Khronos Group is linking OpenGL and OpenGL ES, a mobile 3D graphics API. This is done via Collada and glFX, so what is supported in OpenGL 3.0 will see the light of the day in ES version as well.

As far as OpenGL 3.0 goes, there isn't any bad news here, since this will be a first that a new revision of an API is supported top to bottom, from standard to most expensive ones and down to the 50-60 Euro range. Only problem? This shake-up of the API just might be too late, given the timeframe of next-generation titles. Then again, PlayStation 3 and Wii definitely do not use DirectX as
Click to expand...
 
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tuteja1986

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2005
3,676
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Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: tuteja1986
Originally posted by: biostud
I'm wondering if OpenGL 3.0 would be a more interesting way to get "DX10 features" on XP
Click to expand...

nope.. not according to dev i know. Opengl don't have the manpower or $$$ to keep up with DX team.
Click to expand...

surprise!

OpenGL gets a *makeover* for DX10-class Hardware

you need to know a more knowledgeable dev
Click to expand...

So now the original Crytek developers aren't knowledgeable anymore. Also why can't Crytek or epic or id or valve get their hands on open gl 3.0 ?. this is what i mean by manpower and $$$ to keep up with DX team.
 
apoppin

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
they picked DX9/Dx10 ... no, they aren't knowledgeable about OpenGL ... ask Carmack ... he really *knows*
-do you think his new engine is DX10?

i doubt it
 
BFG10K

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
3,003
126
You don't even need ARB support to get DX10 functionality, you can do it through vendor extensions. That's how nVidia were running their DX10 demos on Windows XP.
 
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Ages120

Senior member
May 28, 2004
218
0
0
Well cards now are designed around the framework of the directx api standards so they have to support certain functions which limits the way they can be designed just like hardware transform and lighting which forced video cards to have certain design elements. Other graphics apis can take advantage of the new features cards have to support to be directx compatible, but the bottom line is they were designed for directx.

Like it has been said you can also use vendor extensions to access features that would normally require direct x ten on direct x 9, but they have to be specifically programmed for that card meaning an ATI demo wouldn't run with direct X ten features on Nvidia 8 series hardware under direct x nine or even with direct x ten.

Saying it's impossible for direct x ten to work on XP is nothing more then to shove gamers onto a new operating system. Took them god knows how long to create vista which they said they started from scratch which is another huge lie to get people who didn't like XP or 98 to jump onto vista. A small service pack and XP would run Direct x ten fine.

A big thing that gets to me is a lot of the game videos showing direct x nine vs. ten. Most of the time the only differences are they use more physics, have more sprites on screen, use slightly higher resolution textures which could easily be done on 9 spec hardware. They do use better procedural surface rendering code, but the same effect could run on direct x 9 hardware although it might take several more passes then on 10 hardware. They just didn't want to waste the time programming the shaders for nine since programming them for ten was time consuming and the compiler couldn't compile them to be backwards compatible.
 
DasFox

DasFox

Diamond Member
Sep 4, 2003
4,668
46
91
Is this true what Ages120 says:

A small service pack and XP would run Direct x ten fine.

Sure would be nice to have DX10 on XP... :)
 
Mem

Mem

Lifer
Apr 23, 2000
21,476
13
81
Originally posted by: miniMUNCH
DX10 on XP is not a hoax... but from the sounds of it, it looks to be emulation. Mapping DX10 calls such that DX9 drivers can 'understand'...

The performance penalty could range from small (10% drop) to huge (80-90% drop). Not to mention, there could be severe artifacting issues and a sundry of other bugs.

But if it pans out, that will be great for a lot PC gamers who are sticking with XP.

Although, seriously, I have found Vista to be pretty damn good.
Click to expand...

Emulation/wrapper or whatever you want to call it is going to be terrible,also what's going to happen when you need tech support or have a problem and say I'm using DX10 emulation in XP.


Personally just buy Vista,it'll save you a lot of headaches in the long run,not to mention DX10 performance especially with DX10 games designed for Vista.


 
Modelworks

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
Folks need to read up on Opengl and what it can do.
www.opengl.org

Its more than capable right now to take over the game market if it werent for the marketing of MS and all the cash they are throwing into the market on there precious vista.

Sony uses Opengl ES on the playstation 3.

Did anyone see the demo that Id software did in Opengl at the latest apple show ?
Very very nice.

http://www.gamespot.com/video/...-title-video-feature-1

And it works on apple, windows, linux.
Of course MS can't have that.
 
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aka1nas

Diamond Member
Aug 30, 2001
4,335
1
0
Originally posted by: DasFox
Is this true what Ages120 says:

A small service pack and XP would run Direct x ten fine.

Sure would be nice to have DX10 on XP... :)
Click to expand...

It wouldn't be a minor service pack as it would have to add the new driver model to go along with Dx10 AFAIK, which means you need to make kernel level changes. Inevitably, this will cause compatibility issues and break apps just like SP2 did and Vista did. It would probably piss more people off by breaking programs in XP then they might lose by forcing folks to move to Vista. On top of that, they probably actually want to get paid for all the work they did, too.:p
 
Mem

Mem

Lifer
Apr 23, 2000
21,476
13
81
Originally posted by: aka1nas
Originally posted by: DasFox
Is this true what Ages120 says:

A small service pack and XP would run Direct x ten fine.

Sure would be nice to have DX10 on XP... :)
Click to expand...

It wouldn't be a minor service pack as it would have to add the new driver model to go along with Dx10 AFAIK, which means you need to make kernel level changes. Inevitably, this will cause compatibility issues and break apps just like SP2 did and Vista did. It would probably piss more people off by breaking programs in XP then they might lose by forcing folks to move to Vista. On top of that, they probably actually want to get paid for all the work they did, too.:p
Click to expand...

Also what happens when DX10.1,DX11 etc arrives down the road,think you will see more bugs and headaches with the emulation,anyway Vista is not expensive only a price of a couple of games for OEM version,if you can afford to game then you can afford to buy Vista.
 
DasFox

DasFox

Diamond Member
Sep 4, 2003
4,668
46
91
All I can say IS, WHEN is APPLE going to RULE the gaming WORLD, so we can all dump our crap M$ boxs....

ALOHA
 
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Matt2

Diamond Member
Jul 28, 2001
4,762
0
0
Originally posted by: DasFox
All I can say IS, WHEN is APPLE going to RULE the gaming WORLD, so we can all dump our crap M$ boxs....

ALOHA
Click to expand...

Yeah cause $3000 prebuilt Macs is exactly what we all need.
 
DasFox

DasFox

Diamond Member
Sep 4, 2003
4,668
46
91
Originally posted by: Matt2
Originally posted by: DasFox
All I can say IS, WHEN is APPLE going to RULE the gaming WORLD, so we can all dump our crap M$ boxs....

ALOHA
Click to expand...

Yeah cause $3000 prebuilt Macs is exactly what we all need.
Click to expand...

LOL, well I forgot to say that we need the ability to build them ourself too, since they're moving into Intel...
 
B

BD2003

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
16,815
1
81
Originally posted by: Modelworks
Folks need to read up on Opengl and what it can do.
www.opengl.org

Its more than capable right now to take over the game market if it werent for the marketing of MS and all the cash they are throwing into the market on there precious vista.

Sony uses Opengl ES on the playstation 3.

Did anyone see the demo that Id software did in Opengl at the latest apple show ?
Very very nice.

http://www.gamespot.com/video/...-title-video-feature-1

And it works on apple, windows, linux.
Of course MS can't have that.
Click to expand...

It was more capable of taking over the gaming market 10 years ago, but it didn't then, and it won't now.

OpenGL is as irrelevant now as it ever was.
 
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