Ugh. Article: does crime in an online game = crime in real life.

[digitalsm]

Originally posted by: skace
Depends:


Crime:
Legit ingame means (ie: stealing in uo).
Punishment:
None, unless caught by some ingame rule.

Crime:
Exploiting ingame means (ie: box stacking to take over someones house in uo).
Punishment:
Banning and return of original items to original owner.

Crime:
Using out-of-game means (ie: hacking the server to steal passwords on accounts).
Punishment:
Banning / Police / Whatnot. This should not be tolerated period.

So yea, there is a broad range.

EDIT: Digitalsm, are you trying to say that it is ok to take whatever you want in an online world simply because the owner doesn't own the content? If I connect to someones C: drive and copy their Photoshop folder, it is ok because they didn't create photoshop?

Hacking is illegal. "Stealing" ingame items is not. Now if they hacked to steal ingames items, they are still only guilty of hacking, not for any monetary loss for items they "stole" in a game, as the people they "stole" from didnt own the items to begin with, they can NOT legally sell those items, therefore the items technically have no legal value.

That analogy doesnt work, because you do own the copyrights to works created using photoshop, you legally own that. You do not legally own ingame items.

 

[digitalsm]

Originally posted by: Moralpanic

Originally posted by: digitalsm

TextHeck, we shouldn't prosecute people who rob banks either, since they're only stealing paper notes, right?

The bank/bank customer own those notes. There is actually a vaild claim of ownership in that case. There is not a vaild claim of ownership when a game player says they owned this item, and it was stolen from them. They never legally owned the rights to the item.

I don't think you have any idea what the laws of ownerships are.

You DO NOT have the legal ownership of virtual items, in fact you do not have ANY rights to claim virtual items as your own. If they are stolen from you, taken from you etc, you have ZERO LEGAL RECOURSE. You do not own them. Selling them for value, is ILLEGAL, it violates copyrights/ip laws, not to mention is against every agreement you agreed to. You do not own the item, if you lost the item, you have no legal recourse to get monetary value for it.

Now if you were hacked, and knew who hacked you, you could sue them for other things, but not for actually stealing ingame items. Hacking is a criminal act.

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: digitalsm
Hacking is illegal. "Stealing" ingame items is not. Now if they hacked to steal ingames items, they are still only guilty of hacking, not for any monetary loss for items they "stole" in a game, as the people they "stole" from didnt own the items to begin with. That analogy doesnt work, because you do own the copyrights to works created using photoshop, you legally own that. You do not legally own ingame items.

What does the work created using photoshop have to do with the act of taking photoshop. I'm not stealing your drawings. I'm simply taking the software that you did not create. Your logic is flawed. They should be guilty of monetary loss of items they stole ingame. That would make the punishment fit the crime.

 

[Linflas]

8. We and our suppliers shall retain all rights, title and interest, including, without limitation, ownership of all intellectual property rights relating to or residing in the CD-ROM, the Software and the Game, all copies thereof, and all game character data in connection therewith. You acknowledge and agree that you have not and will not acquire or obtain any intellectual property or other rights, including any right of exploitation, of any kind in or to the CD-ROM, the Software or the Game, including, without limitation, in any character(s), item(s), coin(s) or other material or property, and that all such property, material and items are exclusively owned by us.

Just one of the SOE EverQuest TOS items that makes it clear you own nothing in the game.

 

[digitalsm]

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: digitalsm
Hacking is illegal. "Stealing" ingame items is not. Now if they hacked to steal ingames items, they are still only guilty of hacking, not for any monetary loss for items they "stole" in a game, as the people they "stole" from didnt own the items to begin with. That analogy doesnt work, because you do own the copyrights to works created using photoshop, you legally own that. You do not legally own ingame items.

What does the work created using photoshop have to do with the act of taking photoshop. I'm not stealing your drawings. I'm simply taking the software that you did not create. Your logic is flawed. They should be guilty of monetary loss of items they stole ingame. That would make the punishment fit the crime.

One, you arent losing any money from them taking your photoshop folder. You can sue them for stealing photoshop from you unless they stole your cd. You could sue them for hacking you but you suffered zero monetary loss by them taking your photoshop folder from you. If anyone lost money it would be Adobe.

See items in virtual worlds have no legal value, any value is black market value. Selling virtual items actually violates the rights of the developer/owner. You are infact technically committing a crime if you sell/buy virtual items, for $$.

In a court of law you do not have any legal rights to these items. You have no legal rights to sell these items for monetary value. You are infact not suffering a loss of $$, you are suffering loss of time.

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: digitalsm

Originally posted by: Moralpanic

Originally posted by: digitalsm

TextHeck, we shouldn't prosecute people who rob banks either, since they're only stealing paper notes, right?

The bank/bank customer own those notes. There is actually a vaild claim of ownership in that case. There is not a vaild claim of ownership when a game player says they owned this item, and it was stolen from them. They never legally owned the rights to the item.

I don't think you have any idea what the laws of ownerships are.

You DO NOT have the legal ownership of virtual items, in fact you do not have ANY rights to claim virtual items as your own. If they are stolen from you, taken from you etc, you have ZERO LEGAL RECOURSE. You do not own them. Selling them for value, is ILLEGAL, it violates copyrights/ip laws, not to mention is against every agreement you agreed to. You do not own the item, if you lost the item, you have no legal recourse to get monetary value for it.

Who says anything about getting monetary value of the item? 9/10 times if a theft occurs, and the criminals are caught, you dont' get the items back either... because the items have changed hands by then or never found. That doesn't mean if the criminal that stole my HDTV doesn't have it any longer, i can't criminally charge him for the act.

 

[digitalsm]

Originally posted by: Moralpanic

Originally posted by: digitalsm

Originally posted by: Moralpanic

Originally posted by: digitalsm

TextHeck, we shouldn't prosecute people who rob banks either, since they're only stealing paper notes, right?

The bank/bank customer own those notes. There is actually a vaild claim of ownership in that case. There is not a vaild claim of ownership when a game player says they owned this item, and it was stolen from them. They never legally owned the rights to the item.

I don't think you have any idea what the laws of ownerships are.

You DO NOT have the legal ownership of virtual items, in fact you do not have ANY rights to claim virtual items as your own. If they are stolen from you, taken from you etc, you have ZERO LEGAL RECOURSE. You do not own them. Selling them for value, is ILLEGAL, it violates copyrights/ip laws, not to mention is against every agreement you agreed to. You do not own the item, if you lost the item, you have no legal recourse to get monetary value for it.

Who says anything about getting monetary value of the item? 9/10 times if a theft occurs, and the criminals are caught, you dont' get the items back either... because the items have changed hands by then or never found. That doesn't mean if the criminal that stole my HDTV doesn't have it any longer, i can't criminally charge him for the act.

The only criminal act would be hacking. You didnt lose an item because You didnt have the item. You do not have any legal rights to the item.

 

[Thoreau]

Why not sue someone if they sink your battleship, or if they cheat in a game of Monopoly when you aren't looking?

 

[Looney]

Originally posted by: digitalsm

Originally posted by: Moralpanic

Originally posted by: digitalsm

Originally posted by: Moralpanic

Originally posted by: digitalsm

TextHeck, we shouldn't prosecute people who rob banks either, since they're only stealing paper notes, right?

The bank/bank customer own those notes. There is actually a vaild claim of ownership in that case. There is not a vaild claim of ownership when a game player says they owned this item, and it was stolen from them. They never legally owned the rights to the item.

I don't think you have any idea what the laws of ownerships are.

You DO NOT have the legal ownership of virtual items, in fact you do not have ANY rights to claim virtual items as your own. If they are stolen from you, taken from you etc, you have ZERO LEGAL RECOURSE. You do not own them. Selling them for value, is ILLEGAL, it violates copyrights/ip laws, not to mention is against every agreement you agreed to. You do not own the item, if you lost the item, you have no legal recourse to get monetary value for it.

Who says anything about getting monetary value of the item? 9/10 times if a theft occurs, and the criminals are caught, you dont' get the items back either... because the items have changed hands by then or never found. That doesn't mean if the criminal that stole my HDTV doesn't have it any longer, i can't criminally charge him for the act.

The only criminal act would be hacking. You didnt lose an item because You didnt have the item. You do not have any legal rights to the item.

Not according to the law and that article.

 

[AbsolutDealage]

Originally posted by: digitalsm

Originally posted by: AbsolutDealage

Originally posted by: 00Jones
Wouldn't bother me, domain is for fun, email is for spam

Hmm. Insightful post. What about if someone hacked into your email address, or stole your domain from you, a la sex.com. Is that real?

Really? It wouldn't bother you?

Let's say you managed to get your hands on a premium domain back when the internet was in its infancy. The revenue gained from type-in hits alone would be enough for you to not have to work again. Ever.

You take time to build a good site. You build in a good ad structure, referral programs, membership program.... the works. You are really starting to make a name for yourself.

Now, some guy calls up your domain registrar, snakes the domain name away from you and points it to his server. He uses your domain and your hits to generate a multi-million dollar fortune. The guy is on top of the world, and you are left with nothing to show for it.

In the end, it's all just 1's and 0's, but there is some real money out there to be made... whether it be domain-based or game-based. It's not all just for "fun" and "spam".

Thats an entirely different issue. You have zero rights to selling virtual ingame items. They are not yours.

I agree it's a completely different issue. I was just pointing out to 00Jones that there are other things besides fun and games on the internet. He obviously has never heard the whole sex.com story before, so I was trying to illustrate what the point was.

As for the topic at hand, I don't think that anyone should be prosecuted in RL for ingame activity, short of server hacking. If you are stupid enough to pay real money for an ingame item, then you must remember that it is essentially a black market sale. Anything goes. You could get your item, or you could be completely screwed, and you can't do anything about it. If the item was stolen in-game, then you should be punished in-game, period. Punishments for game activities should be reserved for the mods, that is what they are there for.

 

[MegaloManiaK]

Man, makes me want to join an MMORPG just to steal some stuff.

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: CubicZirconia
If the game allows for people to steal from each other, I don't see why it would be considered wrong. How anyone could imagine that actual police should be involved is beyond me. Maybe if people were hacking into the game to get valuable items and then sell them for actual money I could see where a crime may have been committed. But this is just a joke.

Perfect. And I think there are laws to prosecute hackers who damage data??

 

[ViRGE]

Originally posted by: digitalsm

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: digitalsm
Hacking is illegal. "Stealing" ingame items is not. Now if they hacked to steal ingames items, they are still only guilty of hacking, not for any monetary loss for items they "stole" in a game, as the people they "stole" from didnt own the items to begin with. That analogy doesnt work, because you do own the copyrights to works created using photoshop, you legally own that. You do not legally own ingame items.

What does the work created using photoshop have to do with the act of taking photoshop. I'm not stealing your drawings. I'm simply taking the software that you did not create. Your logic is flawed. They should be guilty of monetary loss of items they stole ingame. That would make the punishment fit the crime.

One, you arent losing any money from them taking your photoshop folder. You can sue them for stealing photoshop from you unless they stole your cd. You could sue them for hacking you but you suffered zero monetary loss by them taking your photoshop folder from you. If anyone lost money it would be Adobe.

See items in virtual worlds have no legal value, any value is black market value. Selling virtual items actually violates the rights of the developer/owner. You are infact technically committing a crime if you sell/buy virtual items, for $$.

In a court of law you do not have any legal rights to these items. You have no legal rights to sell these items for monetary value. You are infact not suffering a loss of $$, you are suffering loss of time.

How about we "change this up" a bit, and change the question. While the topic at hand has been interesting, the point I think the BBC was getting at is a virtual good really a good. So, let's play "let's assume", as in let's assume I create an MMORPG, but my rules state you do own the item, and all other rules are changed to be in accordance with that(You will recieve xx number of days before shutdown, I can not take anything from you that you legally acquired, etc). Now, if someone still steals your online item, is that not then a theft like any other, even if it doesn't have physical existance?