Ubisoft - paid in full by Nvidia?

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Scali

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How much more of a variety of HW do you need to test IQ?

The tests that I suggested were about performance scaling however. Trying to find out how AMD's solution scales with the amount of memory and the bandwidth... compared to the original HAWX 2 code.
I want to test my theory that AMD precalcs the tessellation in videomemory, rather than doing it in realtime.
 

apoppin

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The tests that I suggested were about performance scaling however. Trying to find out how AMD's solution scales with the amount of memory and the bandwidth... compared to the original HAWX 2 code.
I want to test my theory that AMD precalcs the tessellation in videomemory, rather than doing it in realtime.
i know.. That is what i mean, any of the performance tests*also* only require a single Fermi GeForce and a single Barts Radeon.

Anyone can do this one. And i suspect that i may not be the first to get to it; i still have a major review to get out at this weekend.
:|
 
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Scali

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i know.. That is what i mean, any of the performance tests only require a Fermi GeForce and a Barts Radeon.

Performance *scaling* means you compare how certain things scale from low-end to high-end hardware.
Hence you need both low-end and high-end hardware to compare it on.
 

apoppin

Lifer
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Performance *scaling* means you compare how certain things scale from low-end to high-end hardware.
Hence you need both low-end and high-end hardware to compare it on.
May i try for the last time before i fall into a stupor?


There are only TWO HD 68x0 video cards -neither is high end nor low-end; and you could always use a cheap 5xx0 for reference.

So the question is, how much "scaling" do you want to demonstrate what you need to see?

Get yourself a cheap HD 6850 and first underclock it and then stock-clock it, and finally overclock it to get your performance scaling .. or perhaps you should stick to programming :p
:D


-- At least that is what i did before i had access to the cool toys
():)
 
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Scali

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There are only TWO HD 68x0 video cards -neither is high end nor low-end; and you could always use a cheap 5xx0 for reference.

Well there's my point. I would want the 5xx0 card as reference (probably more than one too, eg 5600-series or 5700-series and an 5800-series), so that's already 2 cards there... probably want to test both 68x0 cards, and at least 2 nVidia cards for comparison.

So the question is, how much "scaling" do you want to demonstrate what you need to see?

I wouldn't be able to tell until I've tested it.

Get yourself a cheap HD 6850 and first underclock it and then stock-clock it, and finally overclock it to get your performance scaling ..

Clockspeeds only tell part of the story however. We also have variations in bus widths, number of shader processors and all that. Underclocking a high-end card will not result in the same performance characteristics as a low-end card.
 

apoppin

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There is no high end and there is no low end yet
- if you want to see more well-defined differences that HW makes, you might need to wait a bit.
;)

Good night. i'm done with the overclocking tests. :)
C-ya!
 

Scali

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Scali: "
You work for NVDA?

No I don't. I thought DX11/tessellation was a common cause.
"We", as in consumers/gamers/enthusiasts/reviewers/developers/etc, want to have the best possible DX11 and tessellation performance and image quality we can get.
"We" aren't quite where we'd want to be (let's say Pixar-quality), but nVidia's current tessellation implementation is a nice step in that direction.
If AMD makes the next step, that's fine by me. Heck, even Intel, that'd be great.

I do wonder, why do you ask though?
 

Scali

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There is no high end and there is no low end yet

You're just taking about the 6000-series. I'm talking about all AMD's DX11 hardware, as this HAWX 2 issue will obviously affect more than just the 6000-series (and probably in different ways as well).
But I understand that your upcoming review is aimed at the 6000-series only, so this test may be a bit beyond the scope of that.
Would be nice as your next article though? :)
 

Lonbjerg

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Dec 6, 2009
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No I don't. I thought DX11/tessellation was a common cause.
"We", as in consumers/gamers/enthusiasts/reviewers/developers/etc, want to have the best possible DX11 and tessellation performance and image quality we can get.
"We" aren't quite where we'd want to be (let's say Pixar-quality), but nVidia's current tessellation implementation is a nice step in that direction.
If AMD makes the next step, that's fine by me. Heck, even Intel, that'd be great.

I do wonder, why do you ask though?


He asks because he can't debunk you argumentation...then you "must" work for NVIDIA since you don't praise AMD...it happens in every thread where AMD fans can't present counter-arguments...they go for the man.
 

T2k

Golden Member
Feb 24, 2004
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NO, it's most likely because Scali keeps posting the same old rehashed Nvidia PR junk in almost every one of his post, ignoring that all this junk were debunked ages ago. Literally every single reply I receied was full of it, period.
He asks because he can't debunk you argumentation...then you "must" work for NVIDIA since you don't praise AMD...it happens in every thread where AMD fans can't present counter-arguments...they go for the man.
 

n0x1ous

Platinum Member
Sep 9, 2010
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NO, it's most likely because Scali keeps posting the same old rehashed Nvidia PR junk in almost every one of his post, ignoring that all this junk were debunked ages ago. Literally every single reply I receied was full of it, period.

explaining how tesselation works to us is Nv pr junk?
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
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NO, it's most likely because Scali keeps posting the same old rehashed Nvidia PR junk in almost every one of his post, ignoring that all this junk were debunked ages ago. Literally every single reply I receied was full of it, period.

By all means debunk his current argument instead of trolling.
 

Lonbjerg

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Dec 6, 2009
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explaining how tesselation works to us is Nv pr junk?

Says it all dosn't it?
Scali dosn't think AMD's tesselation is the best on the market...ergo he must work for NVIDIA...because AMD's fan say so!!!!one!1111TWO!11!...

The double standards amongst some posters are hillarious :sneaky:

AMD want to lower the I.Q. on tesselation = Intelligent.
Had NVIDIA wanted to lower the I.Q.v of tesselation = CHEATING!!!!

One good real world example of this is AMD's broken AF:
http://alienbabeltech.com/main/?p=12648&page=2

AMD lowering I.Q on AF = Silence.
If NVIDIA had done the same = Article on the frontpage of HardOPC..and rabid fans loose on the forum.
 

Attic

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2010
4,282
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Says it all dosn't it?
Scali dosn't think AMD's tesselation is the best on the market...ergo he must work for NVIDIA...because AMD's fan say so!!!!one!1111TWO!11!...

The double standards amongst some posters are hillarious :sneaky:

AMD want to lower the I.Q. on tesselation = Intelligent.
Had NVIDIA wanted to lower the I.Q.v of tesselation = CHEATING!!!!

One good real world example of this is AMD's broken AF:
http://alienbabeltech.com/main/?p=12648&page=2

AMD lowering I.Q on AF = Silence.
If NVIDIA had done the same = Article on the frontpage of HardOPC..and rabid fans loose on the forum.

Stones and glass houses and all that crap. You are arguing against a strawman you've created and then making fun of your creation.

You should revist the OP and the article at HardOCP to find your bearings. Your post has the feeling of projection more than anything given it's numerous fallacies.
 

artonlangy

Junior Member
Oct 20, 2010
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He asks because he can't debunk you argumentation...then you "must" work for NVIDIA since you don't praise AMD...it happens in every thread where AMD fans can't present counter-arguments...they go for the man.

I'm amazed you are allowed to make these kinds of personal attacks around here. Doesnt this forum have some kind of standard of personal conduct? Assuming the intentions of a poster then going on to make generalizations and assumptions is poor form dont you think?

It sounds to me like he was asking about scali's affiliations as he has knowledge of the industry that seems to be insider knowledge.
 

Lonbjerg

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Dec 6, 2009
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I'm amazed you are allowed to make these kinds of personal attacks around here. Doesnt this forum have some kind of standard of personal conduct? Assuming the intentions of a poster then going on to make generalizations and assumptions is poor form dont you think?

It sounds to me like he was asking about scali's affiliations as he has knowledge of the industry that seems to be insider knowledge.

You could prove me wrong buy debunking Scali's claims...instead you go after me.

Point proven...if you don't praise AMD...your characther is brought to question.

Do you work for AMD? :)

See what I did there? :sneaky:
 

artonlangy

Junior Member
Oct 20, 2010
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You could prove me wrong buy debunking Scali's claims...instead you go after me.

Point proven...if you don't praise AMD...your characther is brought to question.

Do you work for AMD? :)

See what I did there? :sneaky:

I have just reported your post.
 

n0x1ous

Platinum Member
Sep 9, 2010
2,574
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I'm amazed you are allowed to make these kinds of personal attacks around here. Doesnt this forum have some kind of standard of personal conduct? Assuming the intentions of a poster then going on to make generalizations and assumptions is poor form dont you think?

It sounds to me like he was asking about scali's affiliations as he has knowledge of the industry that seems to be insider knowledge.

Scali does work in the graphics industry but not with AMD or Nv as he has said numerous times. That's the point. Scali is often "accused" of working for Nv, but he has had to continually refute that because of the claims against him.
 
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n0x1ous

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Sep 9, 2010
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apoppin,

if you are reading, does AMD reviewer's guide tell you to test their GPU's on intel CPU's? I assume yes since they want their GPUs shown in the best possible light, which is only possible when using competitor CPU's?

just curious....
 

Attic

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2010
4,282
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The whole point of tessellation is that it is adaptive. If it's all fixed anyway, why not just precalc it all, like games have always been doing?
Unigine Heaven is adaptive, and so is HAWX 2. They don't just bruteforce all triangles down to the maximum level of tessellation. Run Unigine Heaven in wireframe mode, and you'll see how it dynamically adds and removes triangles when objects get closer or move further away, even on the extreme setting. The setting merely dictates how detailed the adaptive tessellation should be. At lower settings, it will stop subdividing the triangles sooner, resulting in lower detail. But other than that, the algorithm is exactly the same: always adaptive.

Where AMD is hurt is in their limited throughput.
I mean, if you take one triangle over the entire screen, and tessellate it down to triangles of about 16 pixels, as AMD suggests... then that is still adaptive tessellation...
It will not work well on AMD's hardware though, because the pain is in the conversion of 1 triangle to such a large number.
AMD can only do limited amplification of triangles, so you need to feed it pretty detailed geometry to begin with, and then have limited subdivision done by the tessellator, eg each triangle converted to 4 smaller ones.
But that is not how tessellation is meant. Tessellation is meant to serve two purposes:
1) Reduce the overall memory/bandwidth required for geometry, by generating details on-the-fly.
2) Improve image quality by smoothly moving from lower levels of detail to higher levels of detail, and avoiding any kind of undersampling/oversampling problems.

But in order to achieve these two things, you need to be able to handle a large range of tessellation factors, so you can start with very low detail geometry, and have it tessellated down to almost per-pixel details when required (again, this is all adaptive).
Since AMD's range is so limited, you can't really achieve either of the purposes for tessellation. You need to feed it highly detailed geometry in the first place, which means you still need a lot of memory/bandwidth. And you still need to rely on 'oldskool' multiple levels of fixed geometry, with their popping and undersampling/oversampling issues.

Bottom line is just: AMD's tessellation is a bit of a failure. Just like the geometry shader was a failure for both AMD and nVidia in DX10. You couldn't do what you wanted to do, because throughput was too slow.
AMD fell for the same trap again in DX11, nVidia went with a complete redesign, which apparently works much better (although we're still not quite there yet).

AMD is trying to put up a smokescreen by trying to make the focus on triangle size, but that is not the REAL issue here. The real issue is that their tessellator is a bottleneck. It cannot subdivide triangles and spit them out fast enough to keep the rest of the GPU busy. That's why nVidia chose to do a fully parallelized implementation, rather than a serial one (as I said, that's the mistake made with the geometry shader, which theoretically could already do a bit of tessellation, it just couldn't spit out the triangles fast enough).


Thanks for taking the time to pen that out. It delves beyond my knowledge of the subject. The slide posted on page 9 agrees with part of what your saying, but presents the motivations resoning in a different light. I have to hold in reservation your credibility given the sting of all your posts have been reserved for AMD as of late while letting nVidia sit without incident.

My main interest is in the timing of this debate and the motivations and reasoning for the push of a pre-release of a demo benchmark that may or may not be representative of real world gameplay. For this to be pushed on reviewers plate mere days before a release... For me, the parties involved and the timing of this story throw into focus a more meaningful debate.
 

Lonbjerg

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Dec 6, 2009
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Scali does work in the graphics industry but not with AMD or Nv as has said numerous times. That's the point. Scali is often "accused" of working for Nv, but he has had to continually refute that because of the claims against him.

Yup, it's sad to see actually.
AMD fans can't debunk his very technical explanations and that leads to hominem attacks on him...because that, apperently, is their choice of option...instead of accepting the facts...or offering valid counterpoints.
 

Grooveriding

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Dec 25, 2008
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I buy high-ned, only thing I care for is performance.
The rest is just PR-fluff to remove focus from performance.

Wake me up when AMD makes a GPU that is faster than NVIDIA's...

So you were pulling a Rip Van Winkle from September of last year until April this year ? And plan to hibernate again next month ?

When do you get anything done away from from posting here with these extended absences from reality you take ?


Personal attacks are not acceptable.

Moderator Idontcare
 
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