UAW response to bailout

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: charrison
The harbor reports say the D3 take more manhours to put a car together than the transplants. Toyota still hold this title, If the UAW is going to have the best pay in the industry, they should have the best productivity as well. That is not an unreasonable request.

You don't bother reading things that disagree with your opinion on a given subject, do you?

I suggest you start with Loopy's HPV figures about 5 posts up and then come back and tell us again how Toyota has the title for best productivity.

:roll:

Frankly, as I've suggested before, you and the others arguing against the UAW seem to have some sort of violent reaction to hard-working folks who *gasp* dare to collectively bargain for fair wages and benefits.

Face it, you despise unions and everything about them. Show us on this doll where the unions hurt you, Charrison.

:roll: You union apologists can keep trying to claim those of us who oppose the principle of Unions have a "violent reaction" if you wish but it's nothing but bullshit. You can try to claim unions are just for "fair wages and benefits" but if you were honest you'd know that it's only a small portion of what they are for these days.

Yes, I and other despise the unions of today because they have become what they used to fight against. They need to understand that they don't get to call the shots but unfortunately they seem to think and act like they control things.

I don't see anyone else standing up for the workers and negotiating living wages and reasonable benefits. No one. So hate them all you want, for whatever irrational reason you want, but someone needs to represent the average worker in this country. The corporations and outrageously compensated CEOs and executives certainly aren't. Unions and collective bargaining seem to be the only way for workers to get paid what they deserve, and so as long as unions continue to accomplish this goal for their members, they'll continue to exist.

BTW, I have no vested interest in unions whatsoever. I'm not a member of one, I don't know any members of a union and I don't benefit from unions one iota. I simply see it as a mechanism of the free market. Corporations hold all the power, individual workers hold none, and only by banding together can the workers hope to earn a fair wage in this country. There's no rational reason why you should object to folks working together to collectively bargain for their wages and benefits.

Maybe these workers should stand up for their own wages and benefits? Wow, what a concept. And no, I don't hate the workers - I stated I pity them for buying into the Union BS. It's the unions I despise because they became everything they once fought against.
No, collective bargaining is not the only way for workers to get "fair" compensation for the labor they exchange. Also, the unions are not accomplishing it for their members - they haven't been for quite some time - they are all about more money for the union itself and the control they can exert. The UAW has been sucking the life blood out of the car industry for years and others seem to do the same to their corporate hosts. Do you not remember hearing about all the strikes and such where in the end the unions got a worse deal for their members PLUS the members were out of work during the strike? Yeah, sounds like they really have the worker in mind... :roll:


<sigh> WRONG, corporations do not hold all the power. Only those who buy into the union mindset think that, and you are one who has bought the BS. YOU hold just as much power as the corporation in the exchange of your labor/skill for compensation. If YOU don't like the deal - you are free to leave, just as if the corporation doesn't like the deal, they do not have to hire you for the compensation you ask for.

 

[Puffnstuff]

Originally posted by: boomerang

Originally posted by: Puffnstuff

Originally posted by: Imdmn04
UAW workers:

Link

Enough said.

I made the original post with that link and it was locked within two minutes of my posting it...imagine that.

Because the rules are you're supposed to have commentary with posts here. Duh!

Well then Red Dawn should just delete the post, no harm done as another thread took its place.

 

[piasabird]

If the federal government is giving you money, then the Federal Government can control whatever it wants. The only recourse is not to accept federal funds. That is how federal funds work. If you take money from the Feds they get to make the rules. Actually being able to enforce the rules is another matter.

Dont forget the Air Traffic Controller Strike . . . .

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey


You don't bother reading things that disagree with your opinion on a given subject, do you?

I suggest you start with Loopy's HPV figures about 5 posts up and then come back and tell us again how Toyota has the title for best productivity.

And It is even better to read the actual report, rather than relying on someones condensed version.

linkage

Page 24 show toyota still mantains the lead Total labor hours per unit. There is more to a car than final assembly. There is stamping, engines, transmissions,...

page 28 shows that it will be 2010 before the D3 and transplants reach near parity in labor costs. The D3 will still be more expensive, but the gap is much narrowed.

Frankly, as I've suggested before, you and the others arguing against the UAW seem to have some sort of violent reaction to hard-working folks who *gasp* dare to collectively bargain for fair wages and benefits.

Face it, you despise unions and everything about them. Show us on this doll where the unions hurt you, Charrison.

I dont have a problems for the most part, but the often times price themselves out of the labor market, which causes can cause severe damage to their industry. And that is what is happening with the d3.

 

[L00PY]

First off, I'd like to point out that it's not the actual report, but rather a media presentation of the actual report.

And yes, Toyota's plants can stamp out parts faster than Detroit's. That hardly negates any point I've made about UAW being as productive if not more productive when it comes to assembling cars. This is made even more apparent when you consider the output.

Those plants are stamping out 600-800 parts an hour. Engines averages 3-5 hours each; transmissions 3 hours. The work involved in producing a car? Four to seven times longer.

Finally, if you bothered to look at that chart on page 24, Chrysler has matched Toyota in terms of productivity for stamping, engines, and transmissions.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: L00PY


And yes, Toyota's plants can stamp out parts faster than Detroit's. That hardly negates any point I've made about UAW being as productive if not more productive when it comes to assembling cars. This is made even more apparent when you consider the output.

And transplants have typically beat the big3 in total hours required. Does not matter which portion is done better, it is the total that counts in the end.

Those plants are stamping out 600-800 parts an hour. Engines averages 3-5 hours each; transmissions 3 hours. The work involved in producing a car? Four to seven times longer.

and it all still counts to the total.

Finally, if you bothered to look at that chart on page 24, Chrysler has matched Toyota in terms of productivity for stamping, engines, and transmissions.

[/quote]

The D3 have done some catching up, but they have stayed behind the transplants for a long time. And as i said early, this catching up is likely due to the massive buyouts that have occurred over the past couple of years. to rid of the excess workers.

 

[babylon5]

I don't think most people are anti-workers, just some of the habits of the union. Those white collars CEOs and unions are all part of the problem.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Frankly, as I've suggested before, you and the others arguing against the UAW seem to have some sort of violent reaction to hard-working folks who *gasp* dare to collectively bargain for fair wages and benefits.

Union leadership has become that which they once most despised...power hungry, short sighted and removed from the very workforce they represent.

Being a control freak is sometimes a tough road, because there are a lot of things in this life that one can't control. Pssst, the UAW is one of those.

True, most of us can't do much about the UAW, but the UAW are the control freaks in this equation.

 

[L00PY]

Originally posted by: charrison
And transplants have typically beat the big3 in total hours required. Does not matter which portion is done better, it is the total that counts in the end.

Ok then, let's just look at the total in the end. As I said before, Chrysler has matched Toyota in terms of productivity for stamping, engines, and transmissions. Chrysler is faster than Toyota in final assembly. Chysler's UAW workers are more productive than Toyota's in total. Do you agree then that as they are better than industry standard, better than non-UAW workers, you'll stop complaining about UAW wages or work rules now?

Especially as were wrong when you said:

Originally posted by: charrison
There is no hate for the american worker. I would not complain about UAW wages or work rules if they were the industry standard in productivity. However they are not and there in lies the problem. They want to command premium wages without delivering premium quality and productivity.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: L00PY

Originally posted by: charrison
And transplants have typically beat the big3 in total hours required. Does not matter which portion is done better, it is the total that counts in the end.

Ok then, let's just look at the total in the end. As I said before, Chrysler has matched Toyota in terms of productivity for stamping, engines, and transmissions. Chrysler is faster than Toyota in final assembly. Chysler's UAW workers are more productive than Toyota's in total. Do you agree then that as they are better than industry standard, better than non-UAW workers, you'll stop complaining about UAW wages or work rules now?

Especially as were wrong when you said:

Originally posted by: charrison
There is no hate for the american worker. I would not complain about UAW wages or work rules if they were the industry standard in productivity. However they are not and there in lies the problem. They want to command premium wages without delivering premium quality and productivity.

Yes and it is a one year data point and toyota still holds the lead in total hours. They are much improved, but will they maintain. Will they even be around next year for next years report.

 

[Puffnstuff]

Ron speaks again http://www.cbsnews.com/stories...post/main4685694.shtml and it just confirms what I've already said.

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: Puffnstuff
Ron speaks again http://www.cbsnews.com/stories...post/main4685694.shtml and it just confirms what I've already said.

So what wages and benefits would you deem to be correct?

 

[DealMonkey]

Frankly, my ears can hardly believe the crap coming out of the mouths of the usual 'free market' types in this thread. The free market dictates that these workers should be able to negotiate for the highest wages they can possibly get, regardless of how many hours it takes to put a car together. The highest wages the market will bear.

 

[woodie1]

Originally posted by: Puffnstuff
Ron speaks again http://www.cbsnews.com/stories...post/main4685694.shtml and it just confirms what I've already said.

Gotta love the UAW. Hope they bring down GM.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Frankly, my ears can hardly believe the crap coming out of the mouths of the usual 'free market' types in this thread. The free market dictates that these workers should be able to negotiate for the highest wages they can possibly get, regardless of how many hours it takes to put a car together. The highest wages the market will bear.

Uhh... Unions distort the "free market" - especially in places where employees aren't free to not be part of a union at their job.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Frankly, my ears can hardly believe the crap coming out of the mouths of the usual 'free market' types in this thread. The free market dictates that these workers should be able to negotiate for the highest wages they can possibly get, regardless of how many hours it takes to put a car together. The highest wages the market will bear.

They are free to do that, but if it makes their labor uncompetitive they may very well get 100% of nothing. That is real danger at this point.

 

[L00PY]

Originally posted by: charrison
Yes and it is a one year data point and toyota still holds the lead in total hours. They are much improved, but will they maintain. Will they even be around next year for next years report.

I'll bite. What source are you using to support your claim that Toyota holds the lead in total hours? What measure are you using that's not in stamping, engines, transmissions, and final assembly? Because when you total those, Toyota does not have a lead.

That CBS link said, "Ron Gettelfinger, president of the United Auto Workers, said earlier this week that he would seek to remove the wage-reduction provision of the loan, calling it "an undue tax on the workers" who have already made "major" sacrifices for the benefit of the auto industry.

Gettelfinger said that what is being asked of the autoworkers -- who agreed to concessions in 2003, 2005 and 2007 -- is "unrealistic." He has said he wants to work with President-elect Barack Obama to remove the wage provision."

So we know UAW has made concessions already. Depending on how how you include bonuses and benefits, UAW workers can be said to be making more, the same, or even less than non-UAW workers. In particular, when considering wages and bonuses, UAW workers make the same or less than non-UAW. What is unreasonable about Gettelfinger's comments to maintain wages? If he were saying that he wanted to maintain benefits for employees and retirees, I can see the problem. But vitriolic for the man who's doing his job seems unfair.

 

[Squisher]

the White House demanded the firms cut worker compensation to the levels paid at the U.S. divisions of Toyota, Nissan and Honda.

Somebody, please tell me what that is. And, tell me why these companies will be forthcoming with their entire wage structure.

Bush should have included something about an unladen swallow too.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: L00PY

Originally posted by: charrison
Yes and it is a one year data point and toyota still holds the lead in total hours. They are much improved, but will they maintain. Will they even be around next year for next years report.

I'll bite. What source are you using to support your claim that Toyota holds the lead in total hours? What measure are you using that's not in stamping, engines, transmissions, and final assembly? Because when you total those, Toyota does not have a lead.

Well according the report toyota still holds the crown for total hours as they are still listed first. However It looks like it could be a tie with Chrysler. But eitherway this would be the first year any of the big 3 have come close to beating toyota or honda. They should be commended for the improvement, but I would not be so ready to call it a long term success as they may not even exist next year.

That CBS link said, "Ron Gettelfinger, president of the United Auto Workers, said earlier this week that he would seek to remove the wage-reduction provision of the loan, calling it "an undue tax on the workers" who have already made "major" sacrifices for the benefit of the auto industry.

Gettelfinger said that what is being asked of the autoworkers -- who agreed to concessions in 2003, 2005 and 2007 -- is "unrealistic." He has said he wants to work with President-elect Barack Obama to remove the wage provision."

So we know UAW has made concessions already. Depending on how how you include bonuses and benefits, UAW workers can be said to be making more, the same, or even less than non-UAW workers. In particular, when considering wages and bonuses, UAW workers make the same or less than non-UAW. What is unreasonable about Gettelfinger's comments to maintain wages? If he were saying that he wanted to maintain benefits for employees and retirees, I can see the problem. But vitriolic for the man who's doing his job seems unfair.

UAW should be willing to do what ever makes them cost competitive, because for year they have not been. If they want higher wages, they have better be prepared to deliver above average productivity, without forcing huge buyouts to rid of excess workers. D3 has spent billions buying excess worker at 100k a pop the last several years. They have spent more than enough billions over the last 20 years of paying people not to work, to fund the bailout they are asking for.

They gave up significant concessions with the new contract, but it does not go into effect until 2010. Those future concession do the d3 little good as their financial crisis is now and not year. If it is important to reduce the number of classifications from 300 to 25 in 2010, why is that not important now? If wages are problem in 2010, why not move those wages forward to now.

 

[Puffnstuff]

What will Ron and the UAW have to say when their employers go completely under?

 

[L00PY]

Originally posted by: charrison
Well according the report toyota still holds the crown for total hours as they are still listed first. However It looks like it could be a tie with Chrysler. But eitherway this would be the first year any of the big 3 have come close to beating toyota or honda. They should be commended for the improvement, but I would not be so ready to call it a long term success as they may not even exist next year.

Wow. So because Toyota is tied for making car parts (but listed first) that somehow negates them behind in putting together those parts. Chrysler has already beat Toyota in terms of productivity -- it's not a UAW drag on productivity that's making Chrysler go under.

Originally posted by: Puffnstuff
What will Ron and the UAW have to say when their employers go completely under?

If their "employers" go completely under, I suspect what they'll say is be careful what you wished for. If the big three go bankrupt, I can see foreign car makers largely pulling out of the US as auto parts manufacturers go bankrupt. Any that remain will depress their wages to near the minimum wage. Even those US manufacturing jobs will shift elsewhere in North America or overseas.

Again, even if Ford had the same labor costs as Toyota, Ford still would have lost around $800 per vehicle. Even if Toyota had the additional UAW labor cost tacked onto each vehicle sold, Toyota still would have made a profit of $300 per vehicle. If the problem isn't UAW productivity nor the additional UAW labor cost, how is are the Detroit automaker woes soley the fault of the UAW?

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: L00PY

Originally posted by: charrison
Well according the report toyota still holds the crown for total hours as they are still listed first. However It looks like it could be a tie with Chrysler. But eitherway this would be the first year any of the big 3 have come close to beating toyota or honda. They should be commended for the improvement, but I would not be so ready to call it a long term success as they may not even exist next year.

Wow. So because Toyota is tied for making car parts (but listed first) that somehow negates them behind in putting together those parts. Chrysler has already beat Toyota in terms of productivity -- it's not a UAW drag on productivity that's making Chrysler go under.

Yes they should be congratulated for catching up, but they have been far behind for a long time. But it still also leaves GM and ford still behind. I will agree UAW productivity is not the only problem that the D3 has, but it certainly is one of the issues.

Originally posted by: Puffnstuff
What will Ron and the UAW have to say when their employers go completely under?

If their "employers" go completely under, I suspect what they'll say is be careful what you wished for. If the big three go bankrupt, I can see foreign car makers largely pulling out of the US as auto parts manufacturers go bankrupt. Any that remain will depress their wages to near the minimum wage. Even those US manufacturing jobs will shift elsewhere in North America or overseas.

Again, even if Ford had the same labor costs as Toyota, Ford still would have lost around $800 per vehicle. Even if Toyota had the additional UAW labor cost tacked onto each vehicle sold, Toyota still would have made a profit of $300 per vehicle. If the problem isn't UAW productivity nor the additional UAW labor cost, how is are the Detroit automaker woes soley the fault of the UAW?[/quote]

Productivity is one of the issues, but not the only issue. Past productivity also plays just as big of roll as currently productivity. Imagine if UAW had not used work rules to increase the number of required workers and the D3/UAW agreed to less generous retiree benefits, we might not even be having this conversation.

Had the D3 adopted more flexible manufacturing sooner, we might not be having this conversation either. Had they hedged their bets with smaller more fuel efficient cars, we might not be having this conversation either, but they made little profits on those because of labor costs.

Alot of things could have been done different by both sides to avoid this situation, but we are here today because BOTH sides made mistakes.