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U.S. quietly drops out of math test

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Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: piasabird
When you have minimum standards for high school that are grade school requirements, what do you expect?

Money is what people like so offer people big money for algebra 2 and trigonometry.

Many of these people from other countries to learn Math in the United States. It is moronic in a way.

With the advance of computers do we really need to know that much math? If you have a tool that can do the math for you why bother? What good is differential equations to most people?
Because the computational tools that "automatically" solve math problems for you require a high degree of understanding of the methods used by the tool to achieve accurate results. I do a considerable amount of work with finite element analysis, which essentially uses standardized software to approximate the solution of some pretty gnarly differential equations. However, if I don't understand the mathematical underpinnings of the software, then my results will be invalid. The software will still give me a "solution," but it is up to me - the user - to determine the validity of the solution based on what I know about how this stuff works.

As far as the US sucking in math and science in high school goes, I'm actually not terribly concerned. I didn't give a rat's about science or math in high school and attended one of the worst high schools in the country. However, when I went to college, I picked up the slack without much trouble and now compare favorably to classmates from India, China, and Europe. I almost think that I am better off not having learned these things in high school because of the methods usually used in high school, which emphasize memorization rather than understanding. Now, I really understand this stuff and can pick up new topics relatively quickly and easily. Sure, it made the first year of college pretty tough, but grad school has been a relative breeze despite the fact that I'm competing directly with those students coming from "superior" academic backgrounds from around the world.

As I've said before, I think the biggest problem in this country is trying to squeeze everyone through a one-size-fits-all mold. Not everyone is going to be an engineer/scientist. Some will be auto mechanics who need a completely different skill set, so it is an exercise in futility trying to teach them all the same stuff. Sure, history and whatever should be the common ground, but there is no reason to take someone who wants to be a mechanic and teach them anything above algebra 1.

I bolded 2 parts in your statement:

However, if I don't understand the mathematical underpinnings of the software, then my results will be invalid. The software will still give me a "solution," but it is up to me - the user - to determine the validity of the solution based on what I know about how this stuff works.

That is exactly the type of thinking that is required to properly diagnose and repair modern and future automobiles.

but there is no reason to take someone who wants to be a mechanic and teach them anything above algebra 1.

Unfortunately most people think even less then that and many who are becoming mechanics today shouldn't be allowed to fix bicycles. The new vehicles today have sophisticated controllers and computer systems that can become very expensive to fix if the people attempting to repair them don't think like you do.

A friend of mine who works for a large auto parts franchise for the northeast was a able to get me into a hybrid class because there were openings due to the fact none of the shops he dealt with were interested in going (intefered with their bowling night and other such events):roll:

Something I did learn from the instructor there was that to properly diagnose hybrid cars one has to have a knowledge of 3-phase power (delta and y) and how it is used in hybrid cars, and he recommended college courses on the subject. Good luck trying to get the type of people who barely understand algebra one to take these classes let alone understand or fix hybrid cars.

This country is in for a rude awakening very soon
 
Originally posted by: blackangst1
This isnt a government or a public school issue so much as it is a parenting issue. But of course it's easier to blame the government.

You're right, to a point. Certainly motivated parents can make a big difference. Poor parenting results in students who don't value education. But when such a large fraction of children are afflicted by such poor parenting, it necessarily becomes a cultural problem. Its not just isolated incidents.

Everyone always wants to assign blame, no question about that. But I would argue that public schools have been complicit with parents in robbing children of proper education. When schools let children advance to the next grade despite unacceptable performance, that is the school's fault - even if there is parental pressure. This is unacceptable.

In my opinion, drastic reform of education is needed - starting with performance-related compensation for teachers and real standards for kids. Those students who have the will and ability to do well need to be treated differently from the troublemakers. Competition amongst teachers and real standards will bring instruction quality higher, and making students compete amongst each other will provide motivation for students to learn.
 
Originally posted by: 1prophet
I bolded 2 parts in your statement:

However, if I don't understand the mathematical underpinnings of the software, then my results will be invalid. The software will still give me a "solution," but it is up to me - the user - to determine the validity of the solution based on what I know about how this stuff works.

That is exactly the type of thinking that is required to properly diagnose and repair modern and future automobiles.

but there is no reason to take someone who wants to be a mechanic and teach them anything above algebra 1.

Unfortunately most people think even less then that and many who are becoming mechanics today shouldn't be allowed to fix bicycles. The new vehicles today have sophisticated controllers and computer systems that can become very expensive to fix if the people attempting to repair them don't think like you do.
I admit that my experience in repairing automobiles is limited to rebuilds of cars from 1994 and earlier. However, I somehow doubt that understanding the solution methods for coupled nonlinear partial differential equations will be necessary for mechanics of the future. Regardless, if a controller breaks, it can be replaced for less money than it would cost to pay an engineer to re-tune it. Self-tuning hardware controllers have been around for at least a decade and have gotten to the point where they are pretty cheap - cheaper than an hour of my time (at least, an hour of my time after grad school 😛). In today's world of disposable technology, it's cheaper for one engineer to design a cheap part that is easily replaced than to pay an engineer to diagnose a problem with an expensive part every time one breaks down.
A friend of mine who works for a large auto parts franchise for the northeast was a able to get me into a hybrid class because there were openings due to the fact none of the shops he dealt with were interested in going (intefered with their bowling night and other such events):roll:

Something I did learn from the instructor there was that to properly diagnose hybrid cars one has to have a knowledge of 3-phase power (delta and y) and how it is used in hybrid cars, and he recommended college courses on the subject. Good luck trying to get the type of people who barely understand algebra one to take these classes let alone understand or fix hybrid cars.

This country is in for a rude awakening very soon
I know several electricians with no college education who have no problems dealing with multi-phase power systems. In many areas, practical experience is more important than intricate understanding and knowledge. Trying to force everyone to understand all of the intricate details of mathematical theory when their brains simply aren't inclined to math is a complete waste of time. One thing that I've definitely learned in all my years of schooling is that even in graduate engineering programs, some people tend towards math-intensive modeling and some people are more experimentalists. We are allowed to take classes that suit our own research styles because the university realizes that some people will just not excel at modeling and some won't excel as experimentalists because our brains all work differently. The end product of this education is extremely specialized super-dorks. This is why I know I'll have a job when I'm done, because our society needs more and more specialized people, not jacks of all trades. No one is going to hire me as an engineering consultant and ask me a history question. Thus, though I should still know some history, I should not expend a great deal of effort in learning the details of history (except maybe as a hobby 😛). I should instead focus on my specialty, getting just enough of other areas that I am still a functional part of society.
 
Originally posted by: blackangst1
This isnt a government or a public school issue so much as it is a parenting issue. But of course it's easier to blame the government.


I have to disagree. The schools just aren't pushing students enough. I am in 10th grade. Last year, in every class we probably had one day out of ten that were challenging.

I'll tell you what needs to happen. My generation is a bunch of lazy, pansy-ass bitches (sorry for the language but its true) that need whipped into shape. Everybody babies these kids. People have babied my generation their whole lives, and now they can't even think for themselves. They expect everybody to do it for them. If they don't like their homework, they just don't do it. In PE class, if they don't feel like doing anything, they don't. At practices, if they don't feel like trying, they don't! For christ sakes they think the world revolves around them!

Its sad when you can only say bad things about your own generation of people...
 
People are saying our kids don't do tech because they're stupid. Are you sure they aren't avoiding it because they're smart? Why would anyone want to go into technology anyway? The landscape changes constantly making you skills obsolete, all the entry level positions are outsourced to india or pay crap, the classes for graduation involve tons of difficult math and would cut into partying more then other majors, men don't get much prestige from technology jobs to get women, the government no longer considers it much of a priority after the end of the cold war, etc. Contrast it with becoming a lawyer...where you skills remain relatively current, your job prospects are more predictable and the prestige of the position and pay are pretty solid.

You have to LOVE what you do to want to do technology. Its a lot more work for a smaller return.
 
Originally posted by: PingSpike
People are saying our kids don't do tech because they're stupid. Are you sure they aren't avoiding it because they're smart? Why would anyone want to go into technology anyway? The landscape changes constantly making you skills obsolete, all the entry level positions are outsourced to india or pay crap, the classes for graduation involve tons of difficult math and would cut into partying more then other majors, men don't get much prestige from technology jobs to get women, the government no longer considers it much of a priority after the end of the cold war, etc. Contrast it with becoming a lawyer...where you skills remain relatively current, your job prospects are more predictable and the prestige of the position and pay are pretty solid.

You have to LOVE what you do to want to do technology. Its a lot more work for a smaller return.

I suppose that depends on how you judge return. Having a party major may make college more fun, being a lawyer might allow you to get more money for less work and getting a business degree might ensure you don't have to really have any specific knowledge to get a job, but engineers build societies. Lawyers, MBAs, the rest of the people, are just along for the ride...if they were what we had to rely on, we'd all still be living in caves eating raw mastodon penis for dinner.

Avoiding engineering and math and science because it's hard work isn't smart, it's shortsighted and shallow. Anything really worth doing is difficult, and only the stupid people are content to just slide by, contributing as little as possible. You're right, you DO have to love what you do to want to "do technology"...and engineers and mathematicians and scientists DO love their jobs, not because of the subject matter itself (although that is pretty fun) but because what they do MATTERS. I suppose it's a matter of big picture thinking vs little picture thinking, but I'd suggest that no truly intelligent person is content with not contributing anything to society in the long run.
 
I see 2 big problems:

1) is society, our society does not encourage and nurture children who show interest and aptitude in math and science.

2) The business world doesn't value the average math and science person. The average math and science person will live a decent life and pay their bills, but most will never move out of middle class. Not to mention most of them will be subject to multiple lay-offs and down-sizings over the course of their career. Meanwhile the kids watch TV and look around their cities and see that entertainers, athletes, business owners, lawyers, etc make more money, hold more prestige in society, and require less effort.
 
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: PingSpike
People are saying our kids don't do tech because they're stupid. Are you sure they aren't avoiding it because they're smart? Why would anyone want to go into technology anyway? The landscape changes constantly making you skills obsolete, all the entry level positions are outsourced to india or pay crap, the classes for graduation involve tons of difficult math and would cut into partying more then other majors, men don't get much prestige from technology jobs to get women, the government no longer considers it much of a priority after the end of the cold war, etc. Contrast it with becoming a lawyer...where you skills remain relatively current, your job prospects are more predictable and the prestige of the position and pay are pretty solid.

You have to LOVE what you do to want to do technology. Its a lot more work for a smaller return.

I suppose that depends on how you judge return. Having a party major may make college more fun, being a lawyer might allow you to get more money for less work and getting a business degree might ensure you don't have to really have any specific knowledge to get a job, but engineers build societies. Lawyers, MBAs, the rest of the people, are just along for the ride...if they were what we had to rely on, we'd all still be living in caves eating raw mastodon penis for dinner.

Avoiding engineering and math and science because it's hard work isn't smart, it's shortsighted and shallow. Anything really worth doing is difficult, and only the stupid people are content to just slide by, contributing as little as possible. You're right, you DO have to love what you do to want to "do technology"...and engineers and mathematicians and scientists DO love their jobs, not because of the subject matter itself (although that is pretty fun) but because what they do MATTERS. I suppose it's a matter of big picture thinking vs little picture thinking, but I'd suggest that no truly intelligent person is content with not contributing anything to society in the long run.

I totally agree with you Rainsford, but unfortunately when you look at the job prospects and overall treatment of engineers by Corporate America it doesn't make sense to subject yourself to that BS if you have a choice to do something else.

As for contributing to society there are other ways to contribute besides being an engineer.
 
Math is where it's at....Math is not hard and is only logic...

You can't program, you can't do accurate science, you really can't do much of anything these days with out Math. It's super important. Yet, Science in the USA has still a lot of credibility. Tho, everyday we are the laughing stock of the world. I hardly agree with "ANYONES" excuses about how social or parents fault... I don't buy any of it, since we were once on the top. Something has gone wrong. I think we should all be outraged that we can no longer compete ... How do you build a bridge? How do you build a house? You know calculating for rafter pitch angles isn't that easy or stair pitch... It's easy if you know math but... I feel sorry for people trying to build your home that can't figure out Sq Footage or how to read a tape down the the 16'th of an inch. It's not just for computers and engineering.

I'm with Gates tho, this country is gone down the tubes in math and science. I guess as long as we can out source our engineering and programming then I guess were ok eh?

Sad part is....... It's gonna take a generation to bring it back. Most people don't just start taking math classes on their own. If they didn't learn it early in grade school and or college it's probably not gonna happen. I guess we we start out sourcing for building new high rises and nuclear power plants maybe then people will wake up when they find out we are too stupid to do it ourselves.

Whats next is it gonna be uncool to read?????? Maybe the internet will become uncool? How dumb do you want to be?
 
Are we such a bunch of candy-asses that we can't even handle knowing our place in the world when it comes to math/science proficiency in our high schools? Gimmie a break.

It's called sticking our collective heads in the sand. We don't even want to know how bad things really are much less fix the situation. Just sad...
 
NCLB; another Bush blunder that took its toll on our country over his eight year reign of terrar.
 
Our country is on a slow decline on a lot of fronts. A lot of people here don't worry about it, I think they reflect somewhat accurate the number of Americans feeling on this also. It's an issue that no one really worries about, and even if they do, nothing will reverse it.

Where does that lead us down the road? God only knows...
 
Originally posted by: babylon5
Our country is on a slow decline on a lot of fronts. A lot of people here don't worry about it, I think they reflect somewhat accurate the number of Americans feeling on this also. It's an issue that no one really worries about, and even if they do, nothing will reverse it.

Where does that lead us down the road? God only knows...

I agree with this thread completely.
 
Originally posted by: JD50
Good to see that NCLB is working....I really thought that just throwing money at the problem would fix everything. 😉

NCLB would work if schools (read teachers unions and adminstrators) were not actively trying to thwart it. Some of the the worst school systems spend the most money per student...

Find a school system in a major city without big problems. Detroit is getting close to being taken over by the state because its in such shambles.

Until the money follows the student and not the school we WILL NEVER see a system that supports the students.

Face it, government schools are jobs programs now.
 
How many super-intelligent people does it take to develop new technology?

Of the population if 2-3% of the people are super-intelligent, that is probably enough.

The problem is that companies would rather hire smart people from China and India, because they are slightly cheaper. So corporate America has told the average college student that it doesnt matter how smart you are, because they would rather hire someone from outside of America. Whith incetives like this, why bother?
 
You guys are worrying about nothing, the current cell phone text messaging champ is from the US, this portends great things for the future.
 
Originally posted by: piasabird
How many super-intelligent people does it take to develop new technology?

Of the population if 2-3% of the people are super-intelligent, that is probably enough.

The problem is that companies would rather hire smart people from China and India, because they are slightly cheaper. So corporate America has told the average college student that it doesnt matter how smart you are, because they would rather hire someone from outside of America. Whith incetives like this, why bother?

I dunno....people talk about outsourcing like there is no tomorrow but the fact is that technology related fields have much lower unemployment rate then the national average. I work in the technology field and plenty of my friends work in the technology field, our income is pretty decent, yeah we don't drive sport car and hangout with models, but we can support our family just fine.

One thing I find in American education system vs education system from other country is that it is very flexible and you can make your education the way you like it. And that maybe the problem. In Japan, Taiwan many other Asian country, everyone takes the same math, science class whether you like it or not. But here, you can take easy math course if you want to or you can take AP courses if you want. Well, since TV all portrait smart people as nerds, the kids who want to invest time in serious math/science class are discouraged.

I guess we cannot change TV/media, but I believe parents should play more serious role in encouraging kids to take serious math/science course. Stereotype Asians are good in math and science, well, part of it is true and that's because of the family support to get kids to take serious math/science classes. Other parents should be able to do the same if they are serious about getting their kids the best education.

Anyway, I think technology field is not dead, and if you are really smart and is able to get a degree in engineering/science together with other degree like business or law, you will be highly desirable in the job market. I'd definitely encourage my kids to study math/science and to build a good foundation for whatever they wanna do in the future.
 
Originally posted by: jackace
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: PingSpike
People are saying our kids don't do tech because they're stupid. Are you sure they aren't avoiding it because they're smart? Why would anyone want to go into technology anyway? The landscape changes constantly making you skills obsolete, all the entry level positions are outsourced to india or pay crap, the classes for graduation involve tons of difficult math and would cut into partying more then other majors, men don't get much prestige from technology jobs to get women, the government no longer considers it much of a priority after the end of the cold war, etc. Contrast it with becoming a lawyer...where you skills remain relatively current, your job prospects are more predictable and the prestige of the position and pay are pretty solid.

You have to LOVE what you do to want to do technology. Its a lot more work for a smaller return.

I suppose that depends on how you judge return. Having a party major may make college more fun, being a lawyer might allow you to get more money for less work and getting a business degree might ensure you don't have to really have any specific knowledge to get a job, but engineers build societies. Lawyers, MBAs, the rest of the people, are just along for the ride...if they were what we had to rely on, we'd all still be living in caves eating raw mastodon penis for dinner.

Avoiding engineering and math and science because it's hard work isn't smart, it's shortsighted and shallow. Anything really worth doing is difficult, and only the stupid people are content to just slide by, contributing as little as possible. You're right, you DO have to love what you do to want to "do technology"...and engineers and mathematicians and scientists DO love their jobs, not because of the subject matter itself (although that is pretty fun) but because what they do MATTERS. I suppose it's a matter of big picture thinking vs little picture thinking, but I'd suggest that no truly intelligent person is content with not contributing anything to society in the long run.

I totally agree with you Rainsford, but unfortunately when you look at the job prospects and overall treatment of engineers by Corporate America it doesn't make sense to subject yourself to that BS if you have a choice to do something else.

As for contributing to society there are other ways to contribute besides being an engineer.

Thats what I was saying. I agree that those things are valuable...unfortunately our society no longer does. Building societies is great and everything, but its hard to focus on building societies when you've got an volatile career, a load of student loan debt and a mortgage to pay. If you're lucky enough to not have to worry about those things, you can do whatever you want. But I don't think I'm going out on a limb here when I state most people don't have that luxury. I think a lot of people would prefer the stability of being a paralegal or something.
 
The face of the American student body is changing and with it is bringing higher drop out rates than ever before which will have a profoundly negative affect on the US of tomorrow;

The overwhelming mistake with the US?s immigration policy, particularly from south of the border was thinking that those whom come here will avail themselves of higher education and they are not in staggering proportions.

Remembering that the Census had the Hispanic population in the US in 2004 at 41.3 million and that did not include illegal?s and most legal?s as most would not even have got let alone filled out the census form, so today in reality it is probably close double that.

You add the fact that;

The Hispanic growth rate for the 12 months starting July 2003 was 3.6 percent, compared with the overall population growth of 1 percent.

You have a Hispanic population that is exploding exponentially while at the same time the current majority race which is white and more importantly which makes up majority middle class is literally the heart of the nation has only a .8 percent growth rate. Then you couple that fact with 70-80 million baby boomers about to retire a majority of which are white middle class. This most importantly will be a massive hit to the middle class work force and by 2050 they will be dead and that will be massive hit to total white population in the US as well. So it is inevitable Hispanics will be the overwhelming majority race by 2050.

This is where gets is sad for the US:

Hispanic And Black High School Graduation Rates Very Low

The new report, also issued by the Civil Society Institute?s Results for America (RFA) project and Advocates for Children of New York, notes that the minority high school graduation rate crisis is masked by the widespread circulation of ?misleading and inaccurate reporting of dropout and graduation rates.? According to the report, while 75 percent of white students graduated from high school in 2001, only 50 percent of all Black students, 51 percent of Native American students, and 53 percent of all Hispanic students got a high school diploma in the same year. The study found that the problem was even worse for Black, Native American, and Hispanic young men at 43 percent, 47 percent, and 48 percent, respectively.

Then you look at this;

By the year 2030, the U.S. Bureau of the Census projections suggest that Latino students age 5 to 18 will number almost 16 million ? 25 percent of the total school population.

However the numbers used to calculate this are way off they are from 1996 so with the continued mass immigration legally and illegal, the inevitability that that they will eventually be granted citizenship and allowed to bring their families, along with the general Hispanic growth rate of 3.6 they will easily be in excess of 50% perhaps as much as 75% of the student population by 2030 certainly by 2050. If the trend continues only half of that Hispanic student population will even graduate from high school, then you add the drop out rate for Blacks and Native Americans, by 2050 theoretically as much as half the adult population of the US would not even be high school graduates.

Gets worse:

Carnegie foundation for the advancement of teaching

According to data from the National Governors' Conference, "Only 18 percent of African Americans and 9 percent of Hispanics complete a bachelor's degree by age 29

So out of the half of Hispanics that actually graduate only 9 percent of those earn a bachelor's degree.

Thus US is not producing middle class replacements for the dying off white middle class, they are instead it is being replaced with menial labor welfare dependents. The middle class of the US are the class that ultimately carries the biggest burden for paying the taxes that pay for welfare, Medicare, and every other free service.

So by 2050 there will not near enough middle class college graduates to fill businesses needs, and these businesses will either die off or move out of the country. Not only that, there will not be enough middle class to pay enough in taxes to cover the needs of the massively increased menial labor welfare dependent population. Not only that but automation is replacing menial labor jobs more and more so there will be far less jobs as well.

Looking at these stats, if you really wanted to save the US, as harsh as it may seem, and un-politically correct is may seem, every single illegal would need to be rounded up and be deported, every legal here on a visa working here whom is not a college graduate would never be granted citizenship and only allowed in on a as needed basis, and no more anchor babies. The southern border would need to be sealed by what ever means necessary.

Next you would have to get tens of millions of Asian immigrants as replacement for the Hispanic immigrant population you just kicked out. The reason being they have a higher graduation from high school and college rate than anyone else and would give the US an ample supply of highly educated middle class and upper middle class to keep this nation thriving.

Otherwise this country is as just dead waiting to happen.
 
Thus US is not producing middle class replacements for the dying off white middle class, they are instead it is being replaced with menial labor welfare dependents
.

The US doesnt WANT to replace the dying white middle class. If it did the immigration policies would be a lot different. Every year about 200,000 international students ( mostly from asian countries like china , india, thailand etc) come to its Universities in the hope of of better opportunities. About 80 percent are sent back home after graduation as the H-1 visas are capped and monopolised by the IT sector.

A lot of other western countries have the opposite approach. Most of Canadas population growth comes from legal immigration from eastern europe and asia. Will they be white dominated country in another 50 years ? probably not... will they be a lot better off than they are today... probably yes.

Off all the heated discussion about illegal immigration, no one has pointed out that legal immigration policies are still a shortsighted mess..
 
I always laugh when people majoring in biology label me a nerd for being good with computers and capable of higher level math.
Apparently numbers aren't cool, classifying animals and watching bacteria grow under a microscope is.

And if people in a decidely nerdy science major can laugh at others and call them nerds, imagine how the general populace of people who aren't in science at all react.
 
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