Frenchie it was actually me who is suspicious of Isreal right now. If you would have asked me last year i would have said the Arabs were a bunch of nutcases and Israel needs to keeps them locked down. But alot has happened in the past few years with the peace talks, and it always seemed to be Israel who was reluctant to give any ground. With what has happened in the past week or so seems too well timed. The uprising in Palistine(provokion??) and the ship bombing(which had to be planned well ahead of time)just comes across as suspicious to me. I just hope i'm wrong
Keep on winning, DABANSHEE. Israeli nuclear sites may be protected by American Patriot batteries because the Iraqis took it upon themselves to lob Scud missiles willy nilly around the region a few years back. Oh, but you've forgotten how the Iraqis invaded a basically defenseless country and hauled off just about everything that wasn't nailed down. Then set fire to the oil wells, creating a huge ecological disaster. Oh, but they're so fscking innocent, aren't they? Just like the PLO. But I bet you would be happy to see a couple nukes go off in Israel -- would fit your agenda of seeing the Jews dead.
If Saddam wouldn't spend all of his money on his military and his chemical and nuclear weapons programs, maybe he'd have money to spend on food -- which is what the UN embargo allows. Who is ignoring the people and starving them? It's not the international community (you do recall that these are UN sanctions, don't you) that's killing Iraqi children, it's the Iraqi government.
Opinionated is correct about the military. The military's primary intent is defense of the country, enforcement of our interests abroad, and power projection. Deterrence is a happy consequence of those missions. The method for carrying out that mission is by killing people and breaking things with extreme prejudice so as to preserve our people and our weaponry. If the military were intended to be used as a police force, they would learn police techniques. Since they learn how to shoot guns, drop bombs, and launch missiles, it's quite obvious what they are supposed to do. When you try to teach a military non-lethal techniques or use them as police, you needlessly kill soldiers. The best enemy is almost always a dead one, unless you want intelligence then you torture him first (only partially tongue in cheek).
BTW, Czar, soldiers are not there to die. They are there to kill and destroy. Dying does not accomplish the mission unless you are a suicide bomber. Dying is a risk of military operations but is certainly not accepted as a matter of fact when it happens as the result of a terrorist act. Someone mentioned that Iceland would be speaking German now if it weren't for the US. If it weren't for the US in the Cold War, they would be speaking Russian now.
integlspwr: Let us know how you do on the ASVAB!
Assassination of a political leader is outlawed by Presidential decree, which I believe was made by Carter in the late '70s. The only blatant disregard for that decree that I know about was the bombing of Libya that targeted Khadafi's tent and ended up killing his daughter. They also targeted some intelligence sites, but everyone knows what they were trying to do. That's not to say that we don't try to do it, but we just don't know about it.
Rado: The ship is in that area in support of the aircraft carrier George Washington whose battlegroup is enforcing the UN embargo of Iraq. So, they are there under color of international authority, not unilateral US action. They were refueling in Yemen.
Update on the facts: It appears that a local ship was alongside the Cole helping it to moor. That ship blew up and tore a 20x40ft hole in the side -- it was not a Zodiac as first reported. The Cole is an Arleigh Burke-class destroyer which uses the Aegis missile system like Ticonderoga class cruisers. It's one of the newer ships in the Navy, commissioned 1996, and one of the most sophisticated warships in the world. Apparently, it's not one of the best armored though.
6 dead, 15 or so missing, 36 wounded (6 critically).
If Saddam wouldn't spend all of his money on his military and his chemical and nuclear weapons programs, maybe he'd have money to spend on food -- which is what the UN embargo allows. Who is ignoring the people and starving them? It's not the international community (you do recall that these are UN sanctions, don't you) that's killing Iraqi children, it's the Iraqi government.
Opinionated is correct about the military. The military's primary intent is defense of the country, enforcement of our interests abroad, and power projection. Deterrence is a happy consequence of those missions. The method for carrying out that mission is by killing people and breaking things with extreme prejudice so as to preserve our people and our weaponry. If the military were intended to be used as a police force, they would learn police techniques. Since they learn how to shoot guns, drop bombs, and launch missiles, it's quite obvious what they are supposed to do. When you try to teach a military non-lethal techniques or use them as police, you needlessly kill soldiers. The best enemy is almost always a dead one, unless you want intelligence then you torture him first (only partially tongue in cheek).
BTW, Czar, soldiers are not there to die. They are there to kill and destroy. Dying does not accomplish the mission unless you are a suicide bomber. Dying is a risk of military operations but is certainly not accepted as a matter of fact when it happens as the result of a terrorist act. Someone mentioned that Iceland would be speaking German now if it weren't for the US. If it weren't for the US in the Cold War, they would be speaking Russian now.
integlspwr: Let us know how you do on the ASVAB!
Assassination of a political leader is outlawed by Presidential decree, which I believe was made by Carter in the late '70s. The only blatant disregard for that decree that I know about was the bombing of Libya that targeted Khadafi's tent and ended up killing his daughter. They also targeted some intelligence sites, but everyone knows what they were trying to do. That's not to say that we don't try to do it, but we just don't know about it.
Rado: The ship is in that area in support of the aircraft carrier George Washington whose battlegroup is enforcing the UN embargo of Iraq. So, they are there under color of international authority, not unilateral US action. They were refueling in Yemen.
Update on the facts: It appears that a local ship was alongside the Cole helping it to moor. That ship blew up and tore a 20x40ft hole in the side -- it was not a Zodiac as first reported. The Cole is an Arleigh Burke-class destroyer which uses the Aegis missile system like Ticonderoga class cruisers. It's one of the newer ships in the Navy, commissioned 1996, and one of the most sophisticated warships in the world. Apparently, it's not one of the best armored though.
6 dead, 15 or so missing, 36 wounded (6 critically).
They must have had some nice explosives to tear open a whole that big...even on a "thinly armored" ship such as this one.
Edit: AndrewR...thanks for the update!
Edit: AndrewR...thanks for the update!
I just heard on CNN that 6 crew people may have been killed (including a woman) 
Apperently the Zodiac was hired to moor the ship and after tying it to a bowie (sp?) it came along side the ship & BOOM.
Aquaman
Apperently the Zodiac was hired to moor the ship and after tying it to a bowie (sp?) it came along side the ship & BOOM.Aquaman
ANDREWR its a total waste of time with you...if you had your way youd be another milosevic and wipe anyone off the face of the map that didnt agree with you that the moon was blue.. wake up and smell the coffee dude innocent palestinians are being slaughtered not just in the past few weeks but for years now its just taken this long and thanks to the internet for americans to see the real truth as to what is really going on there... as for what touched this thing off it was that fat bastard ariel sharon the same general that ordered the massacres of thousands of palestinian refugees in 2 camps in lebanon when they invaded that country about 20 years ago and thats a fact. that fat pig is known as the devil in palestinian villages and by the way that wasnt the first time he massacred palestinians. people all you have to do is a little research on the subject to see what i mean the guy is a total sc&^mbag and you can understand how this was the last straw to many people living there under constant oppression on a daily basis.
Dolphins:
How exactly are they innocent? Shooting and throwing stones at soldiers isnt exactly innocent behavior...
How exactly are they innocent? Shooting and throwing stones at soldiers isnt exactly innocent behavior...
Hey Frenchie, how about this. We settle this in a legal way
We call in those debts that are not being paid, and those that can't/won't, we just "repossess" the country and make use of it's resources for our own benefit until we figure that the debt has been paid, then we give control of it back to the government.
We call in those debts that are not being paid, and those that can't/won't, we just "repossess" the country and make use of it's resources for our own benefit until we figure that the debt has been paid, then we give control of it back to the government.
dennilfloss
Past Lifer 1957-2014 In Memoriam
"The Cole is an Arleigh Burke-class destroyer which uses the Aegis missile system like Ticonderoga class cruisers. It's one of the newer ships in the Navy, commissioned 1996, and one of the most sophisticated warships in the world. Apparently, it's not one of the best armored though."
I am not familiar with this class. Looks awfully familiar to the Spruance-type hull with its boxy, modular superstructure (modified in the Ticonderoga class cruisers). That is a very large hull (>7000 tons as opposed to the 3500 tons of a Sheffield class destroyer) and therefore able to withstand quite a blast before sinking becomes unavoidable.
I'll Be Your Shelter (Taylor Dayne)
I am not familiar with this class. Looks awfully familiar to the Spruance-type hull with its boxy, modular superstructure (modified in the Ticonderoga class cruisers). That is a very large hull (>7000 tons as opposed to the 3500 tons of a Sheffield class destroyer) and therefore able to withstand quite a blast before sinking becomes unavoidable.
I'll Be Your Shelter (Taylor Dayne)
Boy, if we did that do you know how many countries we'd be taking back!?!?!?!?!?! We have tons o' cash out to lots of countries.
Debt may not be good, but having allies is....
Debt may not be good, but having allies is....
dolphins: I won't disagree that Sharon is not a very savory character. I am not too familiar with his background, but I did think his actions were rather inflammatory and unnecessary. However, the reaction to his visit was certainly uncalled for. Further actions from the Palestinians have also been even more inflammatory. These latest killings were just murders, plain and simple.
Anyway, wrong thread.
ulfwald: I don't think there's anything they have that we want. Maybe frankincense or myrrh.
Anyway, wrong thread.
ulfwald: I don't think there's anything they have that we want. Maybe frankincense or myrrh.
frenchie pretty simple.. how the hell would you like it if you woke up to the sound of guns on a daily basis and had relative after relative shot and killed or had entire villages leveled because of being "listen to this" a terrorist hangout.. seems like they are practising nazi gestapo tactics. how would like to know that you are a palestinian living in an occupied land or that you might be a palestinian living abroad and can never come back not even if you died and wanted to be buried alongside relatives dating back a thousand years. how would you feel if your son were picked up for no apparent reason on the streets by israeli soldiers just for fitting their profile of what they think is a terrorist "any young arab male" and then beaten to a pulp to try to make them confess. what the heck would you do in their shoes? who is there to defend their basic rights as HUMAN BEINGS. Its the israelis who have been dragged kicking and screaming by the big father United States thats us to do anything regarding peace.. if left to their own devices theyed do what theyve been doing for 50 years which is walk into an area and say that based on some passage in some freaking scroll or something this land belongs to them and bulldoze the entire village whether or not people are even still in the houses even though those villages have been there for 5000 years and if anyone doesnt like it just smack them and shoot them onthe spot and then kick them out of the country because they no longer have any documents proving that they live there... then if they are lucky get bussed over to the border to go live somehow in a refugee camp somewhere where they still arent safe because the israelis will bomb that camp too.
Well they have OIL, and cheap labor, I know that i sound terrible, but think about this, You borrow money to purchase a car, you don't pay, then they take the car back.
they borrowed money to help run the country, they haven't paid, so we repossess the country.
they borrowed money to help run the country, they haven't paid, so we repossess the country.
how would you feel if your son were picked up for no apparent reason on the streets by israeli soldiers just for fitting their profile of what they think is a terrorist "any young arab male" and then beaten to a pulp to try to make them confess.
They are in a virtual state of war. If it takes turning the area into a police state to stop the terrorist attacks and the killings on both sides, then maybe it is necessary.
Take note, however. Israel attacks when attacked. They are not the ones continually launching terrorist attacks.
They are in a virtual state of war. If it takes turning the area into a police state to stop the terrorist attacks and the killings on both sides, then maybe it is necessary.
Take note, however. Israel attacks when attacked. They are not the ones continually launching terrorist attacks.
I don't really think there is anything the US can do to assure peace in the middle east. These people have fought and killed each other for years, and I don't see any of that changing right now. Its one Holy War or fight after another, and they all pretty much think they are doing it for God. What they don't realize is God wanted people to love each other. Thats one thing (I think) most religions can relate to, and I don't really understand why something so simple is overlooked.
I'd join in the calls for a rousing bout of bloodshed, but I have a son on the U.S.S. Saipan in the Med. If I had my druthers, I'd druther he came home alive. I can understand the frustration and anger incident to an attack on the U.S., but we've already lost at least 4 of America's children in this incident alone.
Let's not pray for more death.
Let's not pray for more death.
andrewR: i read in the economist that the main reason why they didnt kill Saddam was because the other arab countries didnt want it... including Saudi Arabia.... the situation over there isnt great, but the "attack" on the ship hasnt been confirmed yet.... it may have just been an accident after all....
Otherwise, i think israel is taking this too far.... the UN should really take over and turn that whole place into a UN country... sharon shouldnt have gone there in the first place.... as for iraq... i think the embargo should be dropped and the people to revolt againist him.... the problem right now is that the people have nothing to eat, so they are too busy in looking for food than orgainizing resistance.... just my 2 cents
Otherwise, i think israel is taking this too far.... the UN should really take over and turn that whole place into a UN country... sharon shouldnt have gone there in the first place.... as for iraq... i think the embargo should be dropped and the people to revolt againist him.... the problem right now is that the people have nothing to eat, so they are too busy in looking for food than orgainizing resistance.... just my 2 cents
what would you call bulldozing a village to make way for a new jewish community? Is that not an act of war or an act of an occupying oppressor? following your logic then what the serbians did to the bosnians in kosovo is ok because they claim it or what the chinese are doing in tibet is justified because they claim it as their own and after that taiwan is next..for that matter what the japanese did in china or korea in world war 2 because they claimed it as well... sounds to me like a bit of self serving fuzzy logic there. the idea that they only attack when provoked is bulls&^t... anyone with an open mind can see that all they do on a daily basis is provoke by jamming their guns in your face...for proof hey why not take a vaca. there and walk around to see how they are treated.
anyone with an open mind can see that all they do on a daily basis is provoke by jamming their guns in your face
Dont declare war and make terrorist attacks and there would be no need to jam guns in anyone's face.
Dont declare war and make terrorist attacks and there would be no need to jam guns in anyone's face.
Just confirmed by the Navy Chief of Staff: 5 confirmed US sailors dead, a dozen missing, and 36 wounded. The pictures of the ship obviously show that the explosion was external indicating a terrorist attack. AND it seems evident now that there are both men and women among the dead, missing, and injured sailors.
ALSO, intelligence sources have just come into posession of a communique that states the attack was perpetrated by a Yemen based pro-Bin Laden terrorist group as a direct attack on the US. I certainly would not want to be hanging out in any Yemen terrorist training camps if this is confirmed.
Opinionated
ALSO, intelligence sources have just come into posession of a communique that states the attack was perpetrated by a Yemen based pro-Bin Laden terrorist group as a direct attack on the US. I certainly would not want to be hanging out in any Yemen terrorist training camps if this is confirmed.
Opinionated
fettsbabe for the simple reason that they think their god is better than the arabs god and the same reason that the south african whites thought their god was better than the blacks.. history shows that whoever has the bigger gun wins.. and the israelis are using their godgun an awful lot this past 50 years. sorry for taking the lords name in vain there. dont mean to step on aynones religion or toes. not that i really care for religion right now seeing as how many people have died in the name of it this past millenium.
FlashG
Platinum Member
- Dec 23, 1999
- 2,709
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AndrewR
Thank you for your insight.
My oldest son is a submariner. He just called us last week from the United Arab Emerist (SP?). His battle group was suppose to go to Okinawa but they got new orders.
Needless to say my wife and I are on pins and needles praying for him and his mates.
BTW,
I am very proud of him and what he does.
Thank you for your insight.
My oldest son is a submariner. He just called us last week from the United Arab Emerist (SP?). His battle group was suppose to go to Okinawa but they got new orders.
Needless to say my wife and I are on pins and needles praying for him and his mates.
BTW,
I am very proud of him and what he does.
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