U.S. must give the U.N. a broader role for Sanctions to be lifted???!!!

[NightTrain]

Originally posted by: SuperTool
What does that have to do with the rebuilding contracts? Why does our protecting Iraq necessitate US companies getting all the contracts? You are going to tell me we are there to protect Iraqis from invasion just as we have invaded them?

I'm saying we have to be there to protect them from themselves. There are a multitude of threads blaming us for not protecting them already.

I'm asking you when you are suggesting we leave and let the Iraqis hand out contracts to rebuild their infrastructure? Where do we stop doing the job ourselves? How do you suggest a new government be formed to (assumably) carry out this function? Who do you suggest should do that and how? The only people that I'm aware of "on the ground" that have attempted to begin gathering support for a new government got in a gun/knife fight in a mosque and killed each other. My point is quite clear...it's easy to sit here and say "The US should let the Iraqi people do it" but a helluva lot harder to say how.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: NightTrain

Originally posted by: SuperTool
What does that have to do with the rebuilding contracts? Why does our protecting Iraq necessitate US companies getting all the contracts? You are going to tell me we are there to protect Iraqis from invasion just as we have invaded them?

I'm saying we have to be there to protect them from themselves. There are a multitude of threads blaming us for not protecting them already.

I'm asking you when you are suggesting we leave and let the Iraqis hand out contracts to rebuild their infrastructure? Where do we stop doing the job ourselves? How do you suggest a new government be formed to (assumably) carry out this function? Who do you suggest should do that and how? The only people that I'm aware of "on the ground" that have attempted to begin gathering support for a new government got in a gun/knife fight in a mosque and killed each other. My point is quite clear...it's easy to sit here and say "The US should let the Iraqi people do it" but a helluva lot harder to say how.

Let the UN do it. We don't have the legitimacy to install a government in Iraq (or micromanage Iraqi economy and give out rebuilding contracts). It will be doomed from the start, because it will be seen as a US puppet. Believe me, it's better the UN install the government, so that Iraqis won't blame us for all their problems, they'll blame the UN.

 

[Tiger]

Let the UN do it.

Just like they did in the Balkans and Rawanda?
When are you people going to learn that the UN is nothing more than an over grown, inept, and useless debating society? 85% of it's members are tin horn dictators who know precisely dick about democracy. They couldn't manage their way out of a wet paper bag.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: Tiger

Let the UN do it.

Just like they did in the Balkans and Rawanda?
When are you people going to learn that the UN is nothing more than an over grown, inept, and useless debating society? 85% of it's members are tin horn dictators who know precisely dick about democracy. They couldn't manage their way out of a wet paper bag.

And we all know the marvelous success record of US and UK created/backed governments in the Middle East.

Two things will happen, and you can mark my word on that:
1. Iraqis will blame the US for everything bad that happens while we are "supporting" them, until we leave.
2. Once we leave, they will blame the US for not "supporting" them enough.
Call me a cynic or a pessimist, but it's most likely going to happen that way.

 

[etech]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: Tiger

Let the UN do it.

Just like they did in the Balkans and Rawanda?
When are you people going to learn that the UN is nothing more than an over grown, inept, and useless debating society? 85% of it's members are tin horn dictators who know precisely dick about democracy. They couldn't manage their way out of a wet paper bag.

And we all know the marvelous success record of US and UK created/backed governments in the Middle East.

Two things will happen, and you can mark my word on that:
1. Iraqis will blame the US for everything bad that happens while we are "supporting" them, until we leave.
2. Once we leave, they will blame the US for not "supporting" them enough.
Call me a cynic or a pessimist, but it's most likely going to happen that way.

That's one thing I can agree with you on. With all of the world wide sentiment to blame everything that goes wrong on the US and with people even on this message board encouraging and participating in that trend you are probably correct.

It's a shame they are so misinformed and misguided isn't it.

 

[SuperTool]

Yes, I am sure a lot of Iraqis are sitting there reading AT forums to form their opinions.
This is all very simply explained:
It's very natural to blame the government for anything bad in the world.
It's also very natural to not blame yourself for anything bad in the world.
If the government is created by Iraqis they have only themselves to blame.
If the government is backed by the US, then they can blame the US for all their problems, and feel better about themselves.
Therefore the US will automatically be blamed for all Iraq's problems.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

That's one thing I can agree with you on. With all of the world wide sentiment to blame everything that goes wrong on the US and with people even on this message board encouraging and participating in that trend you are probably correct.

It's a shame they are so misinformed and misguided isn't it.

No you are just paranoid . . . the world doesn't blame everything on the US. But according to the US, nothing is EVER our fault. Both positions are total BS . . . yet neither side will ever admit it. Our priorities in Iraq have NEVER been the security of the people, Iraqi treasures (other than oil), or the provision of adequate potable water and food. Hence, after routing the Iraqi military we've secured the Ministry of Oil and oil wells but little else. Today we are protecting looted hospitals and looted museums but what's the point. At this moment the US is only guilty of incompetence and looting of Saddam's game preserve. But we knew we were incompetent as a humanitarian agency at the beginning. Which begs the question? If other nations challenge our priorities is there NO evidence from this conflict which supports some of their conclusions?

If the contest is for the prettiest pig at the trough, I think America fairs quite well in comparison to France, Russia, or Syria . . . but we're still all swine.

 

[Alistar7]

We have been restoring water and electricity since the FIRST week, US soldiers even disobeyed orders to share their water rations with the people of Iraq.

Garner arrived in Iraq today, went to a power plant, water plant, and hospital, calling these the primary needs to be adressed first.

Garner said his priority was to restore basic services such as water and electricity "as soon as we can."

Ex-General: Water, Power Priority in Iraq


"What better day in your life can you have than to be able to help somebody else, to help other people, and that is what we intend to do," the 65-year-old Garner said in his first postwar visit to the capital.

Turbine Restarted As Baghdad Gets Power

As for when most lights might be back on in Baghdad, he said, "I hope tomorrow or the day after tomorrow, we will have perhaps 90 percent restored." He said Baghdad's eastern half would be powered up first, and districts west of the Tigris River by Wednesday.



The negative actions or mistakes of the US have not been systematically denied either.
Just got finished watching an expose on unexploded cluster bombs on CNN, complete with all the pics of kids in hospitals that were mutilayed in some way, the kind we Americans "never" see...

 

[Stark]

sounds fair to me... and if the UN doesn't want to lift sanctions, then Iraq doesn't owe any UN supporting country any $$.

Let's see how France and Russia like that deal.

 

[BarneyFife]

Originally posted by: Tiger

Let the UN do it.

Just like they did in the Balkans and Rawanda?
When are you people going to learn that the UN is nothing more than an over grown, inept, and useless debating society? 85% of it's members are tin horn dictators who know precisely dick about democracy. They couldn't manage their way out of a wet paper bag.

Should I start naming the puppet governments of South American and Europe during the past 30 years that were run by a dictator that the US put in power?

 

[BarneyFife]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
We have been restoring water and electricity since the FIRST week, US soldiers even disobeyed orders to share their water rations with the people of Iraq.

Garner arrived in Iraq today, went to a power plant, water plant, and hospital, calling these the primary needs to be adressed first.

Garner said his priority was to restore basic services such as water and electricity "as soon as we can."

Ex-General: Water, Power Priority in Iraq


"What better day in your life can you have than to be able to help somebody else, to help other people, and that is what we intend to do," the 65-year-old Garner said in his first postwar visit to the capital.

Turbine Restarted As Baghdad Gets Power

As for when most lights might be back on in Baghdad, he said, "I hope tomorrow or the day after tomorrow, we will have perhaps 90 percent restored." He said Baghdad's eastern half would be powered up first, and districts west of the Tigris River by Wednesday.



The negative actions or mistakes of the US have not been systematically denied either.
Just got finished watching an expose on unexploded cluster bombs on CNN, complete with all the pics of kids in hospitals that were mutilayed in some way, the kind we Americans "never" see...

Well we got our daily propoganda today.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

If you read those articles carefully and have access to other sources (BBC and NPR) you would know Iraqis are restoring power NOT the US forces in Iraq. Many Iraqi engineers returned to work at plants and haven't been assisted in any way by US forces.

It's a testament to the humanitarian nature of some people that they would share their food/water rations . . . but unless Jesus deployed with 3rd ID . . . Iraq will need a legion of engineers/labor throughout the country to restore power and water. Every day that the US holds out for "dominion" over Iraq . . . delays the restoration of vital facilities which will REQUIRE the assistance if NOT primary efforts of organizations which perform such work as their primary mission.

US vs UN

Inspectors should return to Iraq and assist US/UK forces in searching for WMD. The UN should coordinate the reconstitution of civilian infrastructure in Iraq (including determining what companies/NGOs will be contracted to perform the work) AND immediately lift sanctions. The US should handle the security of Iraq's borders, oilfields, and civilian population while training a new Iraqi army and separate Iraqi police force.

 

[Alistar7]

Why are Arab countries blocking the lifting of sanctions then?

Fvck the UN, look at Haiti, Barney, you want to go back in history, fine, research EU imperialism and colonialism and it's effect on the world the last 2,000 years, I'm sure one of the US instilled dictators you want to mention is Castro, what was Cuba like under Spanish colonization? Do you even know the whole story, to present day, on Pinochet?

Funny what you call propoganda is reality, do you ever prodive anything to back your opinions up or do you just dismiss anything that doesn't match what you so hopelessly want to believe is the real truth?

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: SuperTool
Russia, France, China, and pretty much everyone in the region wanted the sanctions lifted or relaxed long time ago, but US and UK have blocked that effort for 12 years. Why can't Russia do the same now?
They will lift the sanctions when they are satisfied that the WMD is not in Iraq, and that probably will not happen until they get some piece of the rebuilding Iraq action.

They don't give a rats ass about the sanctions, the people of Iraq or even the outcome of the war. Read Pravda, they care about the debt Iraq owes Russia. It's in the hundereds of billions of dollars and the US is talking about forgiving Iraq's debt to give them a fresh start. This is all about Russian finances, not one bloody thing else.

 

[NightTrain]

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: SuperTool
Russia, France, China, and pretty much everyone in the region wanted the sanctions lifted or relaxed long time ago, but US and UK have blocked that effort for 12 years. Why can't Russia do the same now?
They will lift the sanctions when they are satisfied that the WMD is not in Iraq, and that probably will not happen until they get some piece of the rebuilding Iraq action.

They don't give a rats ass about the sanctions, the people of Iraq or even the outcome of the war.

Russia was very interested in the outcome of the war. Unfortunately for them, their side lost.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: NightTrain

Originally posted by: rahvin

Originally posted by: SuperTool
Russia, France, China, and pretty much everyone in the region wanted the sanctions lifted or relaxed long time ago, but US and UK have blocked that effort for 12 years. Why can't Russia do the same now?
They will lift the sanctions when they are satisfied that the WMD is not in Iraq, and that probably will not happen until they get some piece of the rebuilding Iraq action.

They don't give a rats ass about the sanctions, the people of Iraq or even the outcome of the war.

Russia was very interested in the outcome of the war. Unfortunately for them, their side lost.

Mr Obvious followed by Mr Oversimplified.
Russia was very interested in lifting the sanctions, so that trade could resume. I don't think they particularly cared who was in power in Baghdad, but they didn't want it to be the Americans, because they feared exactly what is happening now, that the Americans would take contracts once handled by Russian companies and give those to US companies. That said, Russia remains in the region, and when Iraq distances itself from the US, as almost always happens when US "liberates" a country, Russia will be standing there with open arms. As far as debt, Russia might forgive some of it if the poswar contracts make it worth its while.

 

[NightTrain]

Originally posted by: SuperToolbecause they feared exactly what is happening now, that the Americans would take contracts once handled by Russian companies and give those to US companies.

Such as?

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: NightTrain

Originally posted by: SuperToolbecause they feared exactly what is happening now, that the Americans would take contracts once handled by Russian companies and give those to US companies.

Such as?

That remains to be seen, but needless to say, all the contracts awarded since the US came in have been to US companies.

 

[NightTrain]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: NightTrain

Originally posted by: SuperToolbecause they feared exactly what is happening now, that the Americans would take contracts once handled by Russian companies and give those to US companies.

Such as?

That remains to be seen,

You said it is happening now.

but needless to say all the contracts awarded since the US came in have been to US companies.

Russia was putting out oil fires in Iraq?

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: NightTrain

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: NightTrain

Originally posted by: SuperToolbecause they feared exactly what is happening now, that the Americans would take contracts once handled by Russian companies and give those to US companies.

Such as?

That remains to be seen,

You said it is happening now.

but needless to say all the contracts awarded since the US came in have been to US companies.

Russia was putting out oil fires in Iraq?

Well, I don't see Russian companies rebuilding Iraq, do you? And yes, Russians can put out oil fires too, and were doing so in Kuwait, I believe. I remember watching something about that machine they have with a jet engine mounted on a tank that they use to blow out the fires.

 

[Nitemare]

What are they going to do? Issue another resolution?

The UN is a joke, sort of like a one legged man in an @$$ kicking competition

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Iraq has the potential to pump 5 or 6 million barrels per day once the oilfields are fully developed. French, Russian, and Chinese companies signed contracts to exploit Iraqi reserves . . . but does anyone doubt that Halliburton will now be at the head of the trough?

 

[NightTrain]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: NightTrain

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: NightTrain

Originally posted by: SuperToolbecause they feared exactly what is happening now, that the Americans would take contracts once handled by Russian companies and give those to US companies.

Such as?

That remains to be seen,

You said it is happening now.

but needless to say all the contracts awarded since the US came in have been to US companies.

Russia was putting out oil fires in Iraq?

Well, I don't see Russian companies rebuilding Iraq, do you? And yes, Russians can put out oil fires too, and were doing so in Kuwait, I believe. I remember watching something about that machine they have with a jet engine mounted on a tank that they use to blow out the fires.

You said quite plainly that the US would take contracts once handled by Russia and give them to US companies. You further stated that it's happening now. Apparently you were mistaken.

 

[NightTrain]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Iraq has the potential to pump 5 or 6 million barrels per day once the oilfields are fully developed. French, Russian, and Chinese companies signed contracts to exploit Iraqi reserves . . . but does anyone doubt that Halliburton will now be at the head of the trough?

It's just amazing how many of these cozy deals keep turning up :

Army contract for Feinstein's husband Blum is a director of firm that will get up to $600 million

David R. Baker, Chronicle Staff Writer Tuesday, April 22, 2003

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

URS Corp., a San Francisco planning and engineering firm partially owned by California Sen. Dianne Feinstein's husband, landed an Army contract Monday worth up to $600 million.

The award to help with troop mobilization, weapons systems training and anti-terrorism efforts is the latest in a string of plum defense jobs snared by URS. In February, the firm won an army engineering and logistics contract that could bring in $3.1 billion during the next eight years.

Government contracting has come under increasing scrutiny by Congress and citizen groups, with critics decrying the political connections of firms winning lucrative jobs. Richard Blum, Feinstein's husband, serves on the company's board of directors and controls about 24 percent of the firm's stock, according to Hoover's Inc. research firm.

A Feinstein spokesman Monday declined to comment on the contract.

Blum and several URS representatives could not be reached for comment. A Pentagon spokesman said he was unfamiliar with the contract.

Announced in a company press release Monday, the contract calls for URS Corp.'s EG&G division and partner International Consultants Inc. to help with operations planning, troop mobilization, weapons system training and anti- terrorism assessment. The contract runs for five years.

"We are very pleased with this important win, which further expands our strong relationship with the Army and demonstrates our ability to provide a full spectrum of support services to ensure that our troops remain combat ready and capable of quickly mobilizing to address threats around the world," said George R. Melton, president of the EG&G division, in a press release.

URS boasts some 25,000 employees working in more than 20 countries. Although the firm has a long history of government work, it has focused more on those activities since acquiring EG&G from the Carlyle Group investment firm last year for about $500 million.

EG&G works with the military, NASA, and several federal departments, according to Hoover's. The company's areas of expertise range from designing transportation infrastructure to training people to dismantle weapons of mass destruction.

URS brought in more than $2.4 billion in revenue during 2002.

Link

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

It's just amazing how many of these cozy deals keep turning up :

Army contract for Feinstein's husband Blum is a director of firm that will get up to $600 million

What makes you think swine only voted Republican?