U.S. Military a little trigger happy!?

[ThePresence]

Fireworks? Firecrackers? Where did that come from? They shoot in the air to celebrate. They're not shooting a plastic Yosemite Sam capgun, lighting cherry bombs or throwing partysnappers. These are AK47's. Bit of a difference. Oh, and the pilots say it was being directed at their aircraft.

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski
Hell if I had the toys they get to play with, I'd be blowing sh!t up left and right.

I don't think there was a big stink from americans when we were firebombing Japan in WW2 or leveling cites in Germany with high altitude bombers. Civies died then, they'll die now, they will die in every war from now untill we destroy ourselves.

HAHA - so true. Blatant destruction with "toys" can be fun. But also true, Civies die. If they wish to stay in harm's way, nobody should be mourning for them. If armies started lining the inside of their war factories with civies during war time, does anyone really think that the warfactory is safe? The people that think that civies are innocent are the ones that don't understand that the civies are making the choice to stay. They're making the choice to support their government. They're making the choice to side with the government who won't do anything about militia groups in the area because the government is spineless. That's their choice to put themselves in harm's way. Self preservation + harmful choice = accidental / unneccesary death.

I personally don't believe we should hunt down civilians, but I'm certainly not going to cry over them if they do get in the way.

nik

 

[UltraQuiet]

Originally posted by: BreakApart

Originally posted by: TempusIrae
First the Canadian forces are bombed, now a wedding. Is it just me or do U.S. soldiers/pilots seem to be getting more and more trigger happy as time goes by? That or these soldiers/pilots etc. are fearful of loosing their lives and in turn would rather play it safe and take the lives of others... Looks like everyday that passes, less and less are supporting the U.S. war effort against terrorism. As Spidey says, "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility!" Take a hint!

If you look into the FACTS you'll find out the Canadians were killed by NATIONAL GUARD pilots.

NATIONAL GUARD Soldiers are known for being part-time soldiers, with part-time training, part-time practice, and a full-time goal of being a hero. If you haven't guessed they scare the hell out of me... All the power of this nations military with half the training, not a good combo.

I have little doubt this latest mistake will also be traced back to national guard soldiers...watch the news.

Well just clarify a little. The one Nat'l Guard pilot was a very experienced Naval Pilot with lots of experience in Desert Storm. They are in the "system" and will be punished accordingly. There have been other incidents, the key being that there was no malice involved. If they had known it was a wedding do you think they would have still dropped the bomb. Of course not. These things happen in war. They are tragic but they happen. The goal is to try to minimize. I think we have done a good job of minimizing. Unfortunately it is a zero defect operation and when a mistake is made a high price is paid.

For those of you like Tempus Irae who just want to sit at your computer and run your cake hole--- "Permission granted to step up to the plate."


Chief

 

[PowerMac4Ever]

Ok guys, I can see the patriot in you all. Good for you and God Bless America! Oh and Happy 4th of July. Just be careful with those fireworks, might be viewed and hostile fire Oh and long live Ted Turner and CNN for all his reports have made such impact with you guys.

I'll count that as another win for the ATOT Americans. Let's see, if I'm not mistaken, that makes the score 720814 for the Americans and 0 for the IAAAJ (Ignant-Ass Anti-American Jackasses). Thanks for playing, try again.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: 308nato
You have the military savvy of......ummmm.....a Canadian. Why don't you go celebrate your multiculturalism with a Moosehead enema or something?

And why don't you go and fornicate yourself with an iron stick?

 

[TempusIrae]

I just ask of one thing and thats for everyone who watches CNN to watch BBC or any other non-american news cast and see these stories from a third person view. There was an inncident after 9/11 where Ted Turner aired a group of Afghan civilians celebrating and associated it with 9/11 claiming that these Afghans were happy about the tragedy. BBC, CBC and other non-american news casts picked this up and showed the exact same footage and revealed it's actual date being 3 years ago. I am sure this was an accident though, CNN would not lie.

 

[UltraQuiet]

Originally posted by: TempusIrae
I just ask of one thing and thats for everyone who watches CNN to watch BBC or any other non-american news cast and see these stories from a third person view. There was an inncident after 9/11 where Ted Turner aired a group of Afghan civilians celebrating and associated it with 9/11 claiming that these Afghans were happy about the tragedy. BBC, CBC and other non-american news casts picked this up and showed the exact same footage and revealed it's actual date being 3 years ago. I am sure this was an accident though, CNN would not lie.

Ted Turner has about as much input into what get's aired on CNN as you do. Get a clue. Personally the only celebrations I remeber seeing on TV after 9/11 were the ones in Palestine. Most of those were live shots.

 

[TempusIrae]

Yes but when Ted speaks, "ya'll listen".

 

[pyonir]

Originally posted by: TempusIrae
Yes but when Ted speaks, "ya'll listen".

what is your facination with ted turner? i hate the man. i rarely watch CNN either. christ, you'd think he was the Wizard of Oz or something...

 

[UltraQuiet]

Originally posted by: TempusIrae
Yes but when Ted speaks, "ya'll listen".

Wrong. Most of us laugh. Anyone who married that traitorous cu*t Hanoi Jane doesn't get a lot of respect in this country. He's a shrewd business man, that's about all. If your point is that CNN has a great influence on how people think in this country, I would agree. But it has little to do with Ted Turner.

 

[TempusIrae]

Again, just watch a non-american newscast and get back to me.

 

[AndrewR]

As is alluded to above, Reserve and National Guard pilots often have a great amount of experience because they often have more access to their aircraft than regular U.S. pilots over a longer career. There's a difference between fliers who are not active duty and ground troops who are not active duty.

As for the dribble which started this thread, you really need to be a bit more skeptical about what you see in the media. Is your news source Al Jazeera or something?

Just for people's information, we're not talking about a bomb dropping, it was an AC-130 gunship which did the shooting.

Again, just watch a non-american newscast and get back to me.

I do all the time as I have SkyTV.

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

Originally posted by: TempusIrae
I just ask of one thing and thats for everyone who watches CNN to watch BBC or any other non-american news cast and see these stories from a third person view. There was an inncident after 9/11 where Ted Turner aired a group of Afghan civilians celebrating and associated it with 9/11 claiming that these Afghans were happy about the tragedy. BBC, CBC and other non-american news casts picked this up and showed the exact same footage and revealed it's actual date being 3 years ago. I am sure this was an accident though, CNN would not lie.

Link please?

This sounds very similar to the footage of celebrations in Palestine that were 'rumoured' to have been filmed in 1991 but were in fact filmed after Sep 11.

 

[Balt]

Originally posted by: TempusIrae
I just ask of one thing and thats for everyone who watches CNN to watch BBC or any other non-american news cast and see these stories from a third person view. There was an inncident after 9/11 where Ted Turner aired a group of Afghan civilians celebrating and associated it with 9/11 claiming that these Afghans were happy about the tragedy. BBC, CBC and other non-american news casts picked this up and showed the exact same footage and revealed it's actual date being 3 years ago. I am sure this was an accident though, CNN would not lie.

Actually I believe the footage was of a bunch of Palestinians. Then some internet site claimed the footage was faked and a bunch of people with nothing better to do began spreading the rumor like wildfire.

Turned out, the footage was genuine and the only reason it was ever questioned was because a lot of people with very little intelligence and very big mouths were willing to believe anything that was Anti-American or made them 'different.'

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: AndrewR



Just for people's information, we're not talking about a bomb dropping, it was an AC-130 gunship which did the shooting.

An ac-130 does have a howitzer on board. Does this still count as not dropping bombs? I am assuming there is a sublte difference between a free fall bomb and a fired weapon. Granted the person on the ground would probably not know the difference.

 

[AndrewR]

First, I want to clarify what I wrote above about reservists/National Guardsmen. I wasn't implying that all non-flying types in the Reserves/NG are incompetent. I only meant to write that there is a sizeable contingent of fliers in the Reserve/NG flying units who have a considerable amount of experience, much contrary to the perception many people have, in general, of reservists/guardsmen. That should settle that.

Anyway...
An ac-130 does have a howitzer on board. Does this still count as not dropping bombs? I am assuming there is a sublte difference between a free fall bomb and a fired weapon. Granted the person on the ground would probably not know the difference.

The howitzer is primarily used against point targets like buildings, not area targets like personnel concentrations for which the 20mm or 40mm are preferable (20mm [25mm for -U model] being better for larger targets). I may be mistaken, but I thought they had removed the 105mm from the -U models. I'll have to ask a friend of mine who used to work with them.

My only point in mentioning the aircraft which was involved, according to Pentagon spokesmen, is to say that the aircraft is a slow mover and much less likely to mistake minor, inaccurate ground fire for "wedding celebrations" because it has more time and capability to analyze the hostile fire. It also appears that a B-52 was involved and dropped precision munitions in the area. There were also special operations troops there so it wasn't merely aircraft striking targets blindly, and I would venture a guess that a SOF guy is going to know the difference between AAA fire and a wedding party.

Also, it appears that the wild death claims are unsubstantiated. Latest figures now range from about 20 to 40 dead.

 

[kgraeme]

It is an extreme tragedy. No amount of excuses or rationalizing will change that. My sympathies go out for both those who died and those who survived them.

 

[Czar]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanistan/story/0,1284,748300,00.html

 

[Bluga]

Those pilots are idiots.

 

[justint]

Originally posted by: BreakApart

Originally posted by: TempusIrae
First the Canadian forces are bombed, now a wedding. Is it just me or do U.S. soldiers/pilots seem to be getting more and more trigger happy as time goes by? That or these soldiers/pilots etc. are fearful of loosing their lives and in turn would rather play it safe and take the lives of others... Looks like everyday that passes, less and less are supporting the U.S. war effort against terrorism. As Spidey says, "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility!" Take a hint!

If you look into the FACTS you'll find out the Canadians were killed by NATIONAL GUARD pilots.

NATIONAL GUARD Soldiers are known for being part-time soldiers, with part-time training, part-time practice, and a full-time goal of being a hero. If you haven't guessed they scare the hell out of me... All the power of this nations military with half the training, not a good combo.

I have little doubt this latest mistake will also be traced back to national guard soldiers...watch the news.

OK, now that you are done ripping on the training and professionalism of the National Guard, why don't you get your head out of your ass and think about the real truth. A large percentage of national guard soldiers be it Army or Air National Guard are prior active duty. They in many cases have more training and experience than what you will find in the typical active duty unit. This is particularly true of the Air National Guard which has high numbers of senior NCO's off of active duty. All Air National Guard Pilots are prior service active duty pilots with the same training and probably more experience than regular unit pilots in theatre. At least one of the pilots in the Canadian incident was an ex Navy Commander. Those pilots disobeyed all sorts of rules of engagement guidelines and direct orders from ther airborne controllers, I don't think it has anything to do with being National Guard.

 

[AardVark21]

Well, no body forced me to write this, but like those who volunteered to join the military, I will volunteer my opinions. And I'm
sure there will be someone out there who will get upset at what I say and curse me for volunteering. But then again, this is
AMERICA......

I wasn't forced into joining the Air Force, I felt it was my duty to do what was/is necessary to protect my family/friends and others who
cherrish the thought of being free from hostile enimies. If that meant going to other countries and fighting I would. I might not agree
as to why we should be over there, I would just do it.

I believe in this Country, and I would do what ever is necessary to keep it free.

Now as to the reason why innocent people are killed; Mistakes - honest to God, mistakes. Communications break down, and
mistakes happen. Military people are human too, but they are doing something that non-military people do, and thats getting shot at,
living as if today could be their last, and it could very well be.

But because we have volunteers, we are free, not under Communist Rule or the German Reich?sp.

-------------------------

[ Tempus Irae ]
Viper GTS, no one is forced to join the Military. At least from what I know. This is not Germany in 1942!

-------------------------

p.s. If Canada was as strong militarily as the United States, they would have enimies. And they too would make mistakes. Guaranteed.

But because they aren't, could it be because they don't have enough VOLUNTEERS, and or rely on other Countries to come to their aide?

I just know that I can sleep at night knowing that should something bad happen, my COUNTRY would do what is collectively right to
protect me and my family. The END...Aardy

p.s.s. Let the flaming begin....if thats allowed here

p.s.s.s. And even though you are apparently non-American, we say that you have the right to do and say what you will, even if its about us. But come over here and start killing our innocent people, and see if the dookey don't hit the fan. Unlike some countries that will kill you for bad mouthing them.

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: Bluga
Those pilots are idiots.

Maybe those people on the ground firing weapons in the air IN A FREAKING WAR ZONE are the idiots. I don't think small arms fire would cause an ac-130 gunship to retaliate, but if you are too near an anti aircraft battery that is firing on the gunship, you better not fire your weapons in the air.

Its a sad loss of life and a tragic mistake but there is more to the story that just a gunship firing on a hapless wedding party.