U.S.Mike Pence: West Point grads should expect to see combat

[zinfamous]

Clearly, we need to downsize our military and shut down many of our foreign bases if we are not responsible enough to play with the other kids.

That, and write into law that all politicians that vote for war are the first in line when the shooting starts. ...and their children, too.

 

[zinfamous]

Most of the 70's and 80's.

We've actually had many combat operations from year to year that aren't "wars." In fact, the only president since, I believe WW2, that did not order the US Military into any sort of engagement was Carter. That's 4 years, only.

 

[dainthomas]

We've actually had many combat operations from year to year that aren't "wars." In fact, the only president since, I believe WW2, that did not order the US Military into any sort of engagement was Carter. That's 4 years, only.

During the operations your talking about, a vanishingly small percentage of the total armed forces were involved. Grenada, for example, had only a few thousand. Although now that they've created the "War on Terror" (brought to you by Raytheon, Lockheed etc) prepare for permanent war.

Doesn't detract from the ignorance of Pence thinking that all of them would see actual combat.

 

[ElFenix]

We've actually had many combat operations from year to year that aren't "wars." In fact, the only president since, I believe WW2, that did not order the US Military into any sort of engagement was Carter. That's 4 years, only.

i dunno, there was this debacle:

By U.S. military - United States Special Operations Command History, 1987-2007http://www.socom.mil/SOCOMHome/Documents/history6thedition.pdftransferred from en.Wikipedia; en:File:Wreckagedesertone.jpg, Public Domain, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=8304783

 

[Victorian Gray]

Most of the 70's and 80's.

Nope

The Vietnam conflict continues to be the touchstone for both the military and policy makers committed to avoiding future foreign military "quagmires." As the United States made the seemingly inexorable transition from being advisors to undertaking covert operations, bombing and deploying ground troops, the strategy of "incremental escalation" emerged as the military's bête noire. Military frustrations during the "war without fronts" were heightened by diplomatic and humanitarian constraints on operations in North Vietnam. Protest and resistance at home and abroad underlined the pitfalls of pursuing prolonged, costly and divisive wars alone. And the ultimate defeat of South Vietnam in 1975 strengthened the resolve of those who would avoid "unwinnable" limited wars in the future.

Sandstorms and equipment malfunctions caused the cancellation of the surprise attempt to rescue over sixty American hostages held by revolutionary students at the U.S. embassy in Tehran. Failure turned deadly when eight Americans were killed after a helicopter and a transport plane collided at a remote desert staging area. The disaster reflected military disarray and lack of preparedness and, after Ronald Reagan took office, helped launch the largest peacetime defense build-up in the nation's history.

Twice during the early 1980s the United States deployed troops to Lebanon to deal with the fall-out from the Israeli invasion. In the first deployment, U.S. marines helped oversee the withdrawal of the PLO from Beirut. In the second deployment, 1,800 marines were sent as part of a multinational force after Israel's Lebanese allies massacred civilians in the Palestinian refugee camps. Given a vague mandate to restore order, support the weak Lebanese government, and work for the withdrawal of all foreign forces, the troops slowly became entangled in the Lebanese civil war. On October 23, 1983, a truck bomb exploded at the vulnerable marine headquarters, killing 241 marines -- the largest loss of life in a military operation since Vietnam. For the military, Beirut becomes a symbol of ill-considered political objectives and poorly-defined rules of engagement.

Within days of the Beirut disaster, President Reagan ordered the invasion of Grenada, following the overthrow of Marxist President Maurice Bishop. Planners sought to protect 600 American students on the Caribbean island, and head off the possibility of another hostage scenario only two years after the freeing of the Iran hostages. In addition, the Reagan administration sought to use the invasion to eliminate Cuban and Soviet influence in Grenada. U.S. forces faced greater than expected resistance and took significant casualties. Though later cited as a model for similar actions, the operation also pointed up serious problems, including inadequate intelligence, poor communications, and inter-service rivalries.

Following a bomb attack on a West Berlin discotheque frequented by American servicemen, the Reagan administration launched a punitive raid on Libya, the suspected sponsor of the bombing. Planes from aircraft carriers and Britain targeted sites allegedly associated with the training and support of terrorist activities. The raid was also part of a larger struggle with Libya throughout the 1980s over its support for international terrorism and its claims over the Gulf of Sidra. Though its long-term utility was debated, the attack was evidence of the Reagan administration's increasing willingness to use military force in pursuit of certain discrete, limited goals -- despite the Weinberger doctrine.

Involving over 27,000 U.S. troops, the Panama invasion was, up to that time, the largest American military operation since the Vietnam War. Dubbed "Operation Just Cause," the intervention's stated goals were the protection of the Panama Canal and the lives of 35,000 Americans in Panama, as well as the promotion of democracy and an end to drug trafficking. The powerful surprise attack quickly overwhelmed the Panamanian defense forces and resulted in the capture of its leader, Manuel Noriega.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/military/etc/cron.html

 

[dainthomas]

Nope

The Vietnam conflict continues to be the touchstone for both the military and policy makers committed to avoiding future foreign military "quagmires." As the United States made the seemingly inexorable transition from being advisors to undertaking covert operations, bombing and deploying ground troops, the strategy of "incremental escalation" emerged as the military's bête noire. Military frustrations during the "war without fronts" were heightened by diplomatic and humanitarian constraints on operations in North Vietnam. Protest and resistance at home and abroad underlined the pitfalls of pursuing prolonged, costly and divisive wars alone. And the ultimate defeat of South Vietnam in 1975 strengthened the resolve of those who would avoid "unwinnable" limited wars in the future.

Sandstorms and equipment malfunctions caused the cancellation of the surprise attempt to rescue over sixty American hostages held by revolutionary students at the U.S. embassy in Tehran. Failure turned deadly when eight Americans were killed after a helicopter and a transport plane collided at a remote desert staging area. The disaster reflected military disarray and lack of preparedness and, after Ronald Reagan took office, helped launch the largest peacetime defense build-up in the nation's history.

Twice during the early 1980s the United States deployed troops to Lebanon to deal with the fall-out from the Israeli invasion. In the first deployment, U.S. marines helped oversee the withdrawal of the PLO from Beirut. In the second deployment, 1,800 marines were sent as part of a multinational force after Israel's Lebanese allies massacred civilians in the Palestinian refugee camps. Given a vague mandate to restore order, support the weak Lebanese government, and work for the withdrawal of all foreign forces, the troops slowly became entangled in the Lebanese civil war. On October 23, 1983, a truck bomb exploded at the vulnerable marine headquarters, killing 241 marines -- the largest loss of life in a military operation since Vietnam. For the military, Beirut becomes a symbol of ill-considered political objectives and poorly-defined rules of engagement.

Within days of the Beirut disaster, President Reagan ordered the invasion of Grenada, following the overthrow of Marxist President Maurice Bishop. Planners sought to protect 600 American students on the Caribbean island, and head off the possibility of another hostage scenario only two years after the freeing of the Iran hostages. In addition, the Reagan administration sought to use the invasion to eliminate Cuban and Soviet influence in Grenada. U.S. forces faced greater than expected resistance and took significant casualties. Though later cited as a model for similar actions, the operation also pointed up serious problems, including inadequate intelligence, poor communications, and inter-service rivalries.

Following a bomb attack on a West Berlin discotheque frequented by American servicemen, the Reagan administration launched a punitive raid on Libya, the suspected sponsor of the bombing. Planes from aircraft carriers and Britain targeted sites allegedly associated with the training and support of terrorist activities. The raid was also part of a larger struggle with Libya throughout the 1980s over its support for international terrorism and its claims over the Gulf of Sidra. Though its long-term utility was debated, the attack was evidence of the Reagan administration's increasing willingness to use military force in pursuit of certain discrete, limited goals -- despite the Weinberger doctrine.

Involving over 27,000 U.S. troops, the Panama invasion was, up to that time, the largest American military operation since the Vietnam War. Dubbed "Operation Just Cause," the intervention's stated goals were the protection of the Panama Canal and the lives of 35,000 Americans in Panama, as well as the promotion of democracy and an end to drug trafficking. The powerful surprise attack quickly overwhelmed the Panamanian defense forces and resulted in the capture of its leader, Manuel Noriega.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/military/etc/cron.html

Yeah, I know. Vietnam was done three years into the 70's and the rest are either minor engagements or short-term (or both). Compare that to the "war on terror" going on 18 years.

This doesn't mean supply or admin officers are going to be leading anyone into combat. Pence or his definitely-paid-too-much speechwriter should know that.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Yeah, I know. Vietnam was done three years into the 70's and the rest are either minor engagements or short-term (or both). Compare that to the "war on terror" going on 18 years.

This doesn't mean supply or admin officers are going to be leading anyone into combat. Pence or his definitely-paid-too-much speechwriter should know that.

That’s not how the Army works. A combat arms officer could still end up in a staff position and never see combat even if his unit is at the front. A quartermaster convoy, a combat support branch, could face ambush in a combat zone. Throughout the war on terror, lightly armored supply vehicles were easy prey for IEDs and even sniper fire. Military police have taken on refugee and humanitarian roles, placing them in the line of fire for suicide bombers and lone gunmen.

Combat is a broad term, more so in the age of asymmetrical and insurgent warfare.

Throw in the officers that end up pursuing SF or Delta roles, and combat becomes a career given.

 

[dainthomas]

That’s not how the Army works. A combat arms officer could still end up in a staff position and never see combat even if his unit is at the front. A quartermaster convoy, a combat support branch, could face ambush in a combat zone. Throughout the war on terror, lightly armored supply vehicles were easy prey for IEDs and even sniper fire. Military police have taken on refugee and humanitarian roles, placing them in the line of fire for suicide bombers and lone gunmen.

Combat is a broad term, more so in the age of asymmetrical and insurgent warfare.

Throw in the officers that end up pursuing SF or Delta roles, and combat becomes a career given.

If Pence and his lying boss got us out of wars like they said, there wouldn't be a combat zone. Let alone dropping hints about new wars in south America.

 

[Starbuck1975]

If Pence and his lying boss got us out of wars like they said, there wouldn't be a combat zone. Let alone dropping hints about new wars in south America.

I said as much earlier in the thread. The unsubtle suggestion of combat operations in Venezuala is quite troubling.

 

[Jhhnn]

That’s not how the Army works. A combat arms officer could still end up in a staff position and never see combat even if his unit is at the front. A quartermaster convoy, a combat support branch, could face ambush in a combat zone. Throughout the war on terror, lightly armored supply vehicles were easy prey for IEDs and even sniper fire. Military police have taken on refugee and humanitarian roles, placing them in the line of fire for suicide bombers and lone gunmen.

Combat is a broad term, more so in the age of asymmetrical and insurgent warfare.

Throw in the officers that end up pursuing SF or Delta roles, and combat becomes a career given.

So what? Pence's remarks were bullshit-

"It is a virtual certainty that you will fight on a battlefield for America at some point in your life," Pence said. "You will lead soldiers in combat. It will happen. Some of you may even be called upon to serve in this hemisphere."

Virtual certainty not found.

 

[brandonbull]

I'll take things a dictator would say to graduates for $200.

More like things Captain Obvious would say. What else would newly minted Army officers expect during multiple active war zones?

 

[brandonbull]

That's not the Neocon way. They believe in using the military to spread Free, Freedom & Liberty at gunpoint. War is how to make the world more the way they want it.

Just ask Gaddafi.

 

[Genx87]

So what? Pence's remarks were bullshit-

"It is a virtual certainty that you will fight on a battlefield for America at some point in your life," Pence said. "You will lead soldiers in combat. It will happen. Some of you may even be called upon to serve in this hemisphere."

Virtual certainty not found.

Even in our supposed most peaceful time we still managed to screwup a rescue mission, invade two countries, bomb another, and send troops into war zone for 2 years. That doesnt include the "advisors" we sent into central american countries and our Navay living in the Persian Gulf. Then the 1990s happened with a full fledged war with Iraq, peace keeping in Bosnia, Somalia, and enforcing no-fly zone over Iraq. And then the war on terror. 18 years of constant battle which included toppling 3 countries and a never ending bombing campaign and troop surges.

Sadly I have to admit Pence is probably the most honest and candid I have heard our war-mongers in govt speak about the expectation our war-mongering will continue for decades to come. Like it has the previous 7 decades.

 

[Jhhnn]

Even in our supposed most peaceful time we still managed to screwup a rescue mission, invade two countries, bomb another, and send troops into war zone for 2 years. That doesnt include the "advisors" we sent into central american countries and our Navay living in the Persian Gulf. Then the 1990s happened with a full fledged war with Iraq, peace keeping in Bosnia, Somalia, and enforcing no-fly zone over Iraq. And then the war on terror. 18 years of constant battle which included toppling 3 countries and a never ending bombing campaign and troop surges.

Sadly I have to admit Pence is probably the most honest and candid I have heard our war-mongers in govt speak about the expectation our war-mongering will continue for decades to come. Like it has the previous 7 decades.

Virtual certainty of being in combat still not found. This would have been accurate-

"It is likely that many of you will fight on a battlefield for America at some point in your life," Pence said. "You will lead soldiers in combat. It will happen. Some of you may even be called upon to serve in this hemisphere."

 

[hal2kilo]

Nope

The Vietnam conflict continues to be the touchstone for both the military and policy makers committed to avoiding future foreign military "quagmires." As the United States made the seemingly inexorable transition from being advisors to undertaking covert operations, bombing and deploying ground troops, the strategy of "incremental escalation" emerged as the military's bête noire. Military frustrations during the "war without fronts" were heightened by diplomatic and humanitarian constraints on operations in North Vietnam. Protest and resistance at home and abroad underlined the pitfalls of pursuing prolonged, costly and divisive wars alone. And the ultimate defeat of South Vietnam in 1975 strengthened the resolve of those who would avoid "unwinnable" limited wars in the future.

Sandstorms and equipment malfunctions caused the cancellation of the surprise attempt to rescue over sixty American hostages held by revolutionary students at the U.S. embassy in Tehran. Failure turned deadly when eight Americans were killed after a helicopter and a transport plane collided at a remote desert staging area. The disaster reflected military disarray and lack of preparedness and, after Ronald Reagan took office, helped launch the largest peacetime defense build-up in the nation's history.

Twice during the early 1980s the United States deployed troops to Lebanon to deal with the fall-out from the Israeli invasion. In the first deployment, U.S. marines helped oversee the withdrawal of the PLO from Beirut. In the second deployment, 1,800 marines were sent as part of a multinational force after Israel's Lebanese allies massacred civilians in the Palestinian refugee camps. Given a vague mandate to restore order, support the weak Lebanese government, and work for the withdrawal of all foreign forces, the troops slowly became entangled in the Lebanese civil war. On October 23, 1983, a truck bomb exploded at the vulnerable marine headquarters, killing 241 marines -- the largest loss of life in a military operation since Vietnam. For the military, Beirut becomes a symbol of ill-considered political objectives and poorly-defined rules of engagement.

Within days of the Beirut disaster, President Reagan ordered the invasion of Grenada, following the overthrow of Marxist President Maurice Bishop. Planners sought to protect 600 American students on the Caribbean island, and head off the possibility of another hostage scenario only two years after the freeing of the Iran hostages. In addition, the Reagan administration sought to use the invasion to eliminate Cuban and Soviet influence in Grenada. U.S. forces faced greater than expected resistance and took significant casualties. Though later cited as a model for similar actions, the operation also pointed up serious problems, including inadequate intelligence, poor communications, and inter-service rivalries.

Following a bomb attack on a West Berlin discotheque frequented by American servicemen, the Reagan administration launched a punitive raid on Libya, the suspected sponsor of the bombing. Planes from aircraft carriers and Britain targeted sites allegedly associated with the training and support of terrorist activities. The raid was also part of a larger struggle with Libya throughout the 1980s over its support for international terrorism and its claims over the Gulf of Sidra. Though its long-term utility was debated, the attack was evidence of the Reagan administration's increasing willingness to use military force in pursuit of certain discrete, limited goals -- despite the Weinberger doctrine.

Involving over 27,000 U.S. troops, the Panama invasion was, up to that time, the largest American military operation since the Vietnam War. Dubbed "Operation Just Cause," the intervention's stated goals were the protection of the Panama Canal and the lives of 35,000 Americans in Panama, as well as the promotion of democracy and an end to drug trafficking. The powerful surprise attack quickly overwhelmed the Panamanian defense forces and resulted in the capture of its leader, Manuel Noriega.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/military/etc/cron.html

Ah yes Beruit, that's where Reagan got a whole bunch of marines killed, then turned tail. Oh, mister teflon.

 

[Indus]

every generation has seen war. his statement is correct.

Only because of stupid people like who want to commit war crimes overseas!