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U.S. drops even lower in educational measurement rankings

R

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
2006 PISA results

According to the info in the PDF linked above, the US has dropped in math and science to lows that I personally never thought we would see. These rankings are done on a basis for OECD member countries (which there are 30) and then all countries and show rankings based on high and low on specific subrankings within the category.

In math, the US has dropped to a rank of 24th/26th (out of 30) of members and 32nd/36th when all countries are factored in.

In science, the US has dropped to a rank of 18th/25th of members (high/low ranking) and 24th/35th when all countries are ranked.
 
Even the school district we live in with one of the best pu blic schools in the state is devoting more and more time to teaching kids how to pass state mandated tests than teaching material relevant to a well rounded bassic education.

We now require 3 years of math, 4 of science, 4 of English etc... which is great for college bound kids. But we have nothing for kids who won't go to college and would prefer to work in a trade and don't need as much of the above but do need other skills that are not being taught anymore.

I don't have any solutions, but I do know the way we are going is not making our kids any better prepared for college or any other careeer.
 
This has been going on for ages. I remember when graduating from highschool the big thing was incomming freshmen having to take remedial classes to catchup so they could take the standard 100 level english and mathematics classes.

We have become fixated on not hurting people's feelings in this country. Making everybody feel special. And never telling somebody they failed. The results speak for themselves. We have millions of people who are coddled through our public education system because it makes more sense to pass them through than to teach them anything and let them fail. Hell districts are rewarded for it!
 
Originally posted by: Genx87
This has been going on for ages. I remember when graduating from highschool the big thing was incomming freshmen having to take remedial classes to catchup so they could take the standard 100 level english and mathematics classes.

We have become fixated on not hurting people's feelings in this country. Making everybody feel special. And never telling somebody they failed. The results speak for themselves. We have millions of people who are coddled through our public education system because it makes more sense to pass them through than to teach them anything and let them fail. Hell districts are rewarded for it!
Click to expand...

Those sentiments are one of the few things that you and I agree on 100%.
 
There is a school district in our area where a new attendance policy goes into effect this fall to combat a high drop out rate. The new policy states (paraphrasing) that it is ok for a student to not attend class as long as they know the material and can pass a test at the end of the class.

Now keep in mind this is in reference to HIGH SCHOOL students. Where the drop out rate exceeds 50%. The district is telling students it doesn't matter whether they show up or not.

What a way to build a work/study ethic - not.
 
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
2006 PISA results

According to the info in the PDF linked above, the US has dropped in math and science to lows that I personally never thought we would see. These rankings are done on a basis for OECD member countries (which there are 30) and then all countries and show rankings based on high and low on specific subrankings within the category.

In math, the US has dropped to a rank of 24th/26th (out of 30) of members and 32nd/36th when all countries are factored in.

In science, the US has dropped to a rank of 18th/25th of members (high/low ranking) and 24th/35th when all countries are ranked.
Click to expand...

What we need there (bold) is to mandate Intelligent Design into science class. That'll do it! :laugh:

 
I have been very disappointed by the gradual decrease in quality of our education system in the US over the past 20 years. I feel it is one of the larger "threats" that our nation faces in the long term. It is difficult to directly link a lot of problems that our country faces to that of a lack of quality education but it does play a big part in many of our problems. We really need to raise the bar.

We also need to make entry into college after HS much more accessible and affordable. I'm not saying we should just let any jackass into a 4 year university mind you. That doesn't help quality. However, there are too many successful HS students that are not going to college because either the college's standards for entry are way too high due to the lack of available slots or the student cannot afford to go. Some of these students are not always amongst the highest GPA in their graduating class. Others have the GPA but they suck at standardized tests. Then there are those which just didn't have a huge list of extra curricular activities. However, many of these same students did good enough and given the right amount of dedication they can earn themselves a degree just like everyone else. Even if you do not agree with me with the "accessible" parts, we need to at least find more ways to lower the cost of college so that the quality students who didn't earn enough scholarship money can still get a good 4 year degree.
 
This is a huge problem, and there is no good way to fix it. I occasionally work in a poor inner city area. The drop out rate is incredible, and the teachers get blamed. The cold facts are that the parents have no interest in education, and they raise their children to be the same.

The latest rap music is important. The best shoes are. Being cool, however that's defined. School? You're kidding, right?

So throw more money at it? When people refuse to be educated, educating them into believing education is good doesn't work.

If it were up to me, I'd start fixing the education issue by reforming welfare. The sense of entitlement is incredible in the real world.
 
Anyone watch the HBO documentary last night about the all black inner city high school in Baltimore? It will make your blood boil. You will realize that the problems facing many of our schools have nothing to do with funding or public policy, but instead is rooted right in the community of these kids. When 1/5 of the students dont show up on any given day, when teachers are lucky to meet a single parent on parent/teacher night, when teachers spend 80% of their class time on dicipline, it is impossible to teach. You could have a parent teacher ratio of 1 to 1, and it would do no good for these kids, because neither they nor their parents give a shit. Poor schools are merely the symptom of cultural problems in the community, particularly the black community. How the respectable black community of the 50's and 60's that managed to spearhead the civil rights movement, and properly raise their kids as a family, degenerated into what it is today is beyond me, but it is disturbing.
 
Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
Anyone watch the HBO documentary last night about the all black inner city high school in Baltimore? It will make your blood boil. You will realize that the problems facing many of our schools have nothing to do with funding or public policy, but instead is rooted right in the community of these kids. When 1/5 of the students dont show up on any given day, when teachers are lucky to meet a single parent on parent/teacher night, when teachers spend 80% of their class time on dicipline, it is impossible to teach. You could have a parent teacher ratio of 1 to 1, and it would do no good for these kids, because neither they nor their parents give a shit. Poor schools are merely the symptom of cultural problems in the community, particularly the black community. How the respectable black community of the 50's and 60's that managed to spearhead the civil rights movement, and properly raise their kids as a family, degenerated into what it is today is beyond me, but it is disturbing.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately that's how I see it. The 60's were about giving the opportunity for the disadvantaged to catch up. Unfortunately it's perpetuated itself into a system that's an utter failure. When there are no expectations, there is no achievement. If that sense of expectation doesn't come from family and community, no social program is going to correct that.

That's why I'm for welfare, but a very very different kind. All able bodied people should have a broom or shovel or something to earn that money. There is no shame in honest labor. If people don't want to do that, now they have an incentive to better themselves. Provide the opportunity, and a safe environment. If someone elects not to take advantage, that broom will be waiting.
 
Originally posted by: dphantom
There is a school district in our area where a new attendance policy goes into effect this fall to combat a high drop out rate. The new policy states (paraphrasing) that it is ok for a student to not attend class as long as they know the material and can pass a test at the end of the class.

Now keep in mind this is in reference to HIGH SCHOOL students. Where the drop out rate exceeds 50%. The district is telling students it doesn't matter whether they show up or not.

What a way to build a work/study ethic - not.
Click to expand...

Actually, I think this is interesting. More or less HS is a joke anyway. Now.. you're giving kids independence, and incentive to learn. I would have kicked much ass in HS if this was implemented in my school. Instead I became a jaded, under-achiever, that was removed from school my senior year for failing too many classes... just to go on to pull a 32 on my ACTS. /shrug
 
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
This is a huge problem, and there is no good way to fix it. I occasionally work in a poor inner city area. The drop out rate is incredible, and the teachers get blamed. The cold facts are that the parents have no interest in education, and they raise their children to be the same.

The latest rap music is important. The best shoes are. Being cool, however that's defined. School? You're kidding, right?

So throw more money at it? When people refuse to be educated, educating them into believing education is good doesn't work.

If it were up to me, I'd start fixing the education issue by reforming welfare. The sense of entitlement is incredible in the real world.
Click to expand...

You are correct in the sense that one cannot educate those who do not wish to be educated.

However, we can make a difference by spending more money to increase the quality of the education for those who do wish to be educated. We would see much better teachers if they got paid more and were provided better materials, technology, and facilities for example. We would see more students who are willing to work hard for a degree in college if the expense of going to college was not so high. As an added bonus, if the expense of college was lower we would also see more college graduates enter the real world with less debt on their shoulders. These are a few areas which could really use some work and it would make a world of difference in terms of the quality of our education.
 
Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
How the respectable black community of the 50's and 60's that managed to spearhead the civil rights movement, and properly raise their kids as a family, degenerated into what it is today is beyond me, but it is disturbing.
Click to expand...


As near as I can tell, it happened something like this: The civil rights movement was going okay, but some black people thought that it wasn't moving fast enough or far enough towards equality. After MLK was killed, came the rise of the more militant black rights activists like the black panther party. They were willing to use violence in order to achieve their goals, but obviously this would not be tolerated. As the black panther leadership was killed off and the group broken up, groups of young black men turned away from civil rights and community activism and towards gang banging. This was relayed to me by someone who was there by the way.

So slow moving civil rights movement leads to militant black power movement which is broken up by The Man? which leads to young black men turning to gangs without real leadership which leads to the decay of black communities out of which spawns rap music which white youths embrace which leads to the generally shitty state that americas youth is in today.


Fucked up innit?
 
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
This is a huge problem, and there is no good way to fix it. I occasionally work in a poor inner city area. The drop out rate is incredible, and the teachers get blamed. The cold facts are that the parents have no interest in education, and they raise their children to be the same.

The latest rap music is important. The best shoes are. Being cool, however that's defined. School? You're kidding, right?

So throw more money at it? When people refuse to be educated, educating them into believing education is good doesn't work.

If it were up to me, I'd start fixing the education issue by reforming welfare. The sense of entitlement is incredible in the real world.
Click to expand...

You are correct in the sense that one cannot educate those who do not wish to be educated.

However, we can make a difference by spending more money to increase the quality of the education for those who do wish to be educated. We would see much better teachers if they got paid more and were provided better materials, technology, and facilities for example. We would see more students who are willing to work hard for a degree in college if the expense of going to college was not so high. As an added bonus, if the expense of college was lower we would also see more college graduates enter the real world with less debt on their shoulders. These are a few areas which could really use some work and it would make a world of difference in terms of the quality of our education.
Click to expand...

Find and watch the HBO program I mentioned above, and you will see that the only way to give the good kids a chance is to segregate them from the bad kids, and all the bullshit PC arguments against it be damned. You cannot teach in a classroom where 90% of the kids are busy talking, fighting, and goofing off.

 
Originally posted by: Mxylplyx


Find and watch the HBO program I mentioned above, and you will see that the only way to give the good kids a chance is to segregate them from the bad kids, and all the bullshit PC arguments against it be damned. You cannot teach in a classroom where 90% of the kids are busy talking, fighting, and goofing off.
Click to expand...

Yea, but we can't just leave the 90% alone and forget about them. I guarantee they'll only grow to become a far more powerful, negative influence later on. Some sort of emergency, expensive, intervention needs to take place.

It feels like the HBO "documentary" you're talking about is actually the drama series, The Wire..which is fucking AWESOME by the way, highly recommended...

If it was a documentary about the baltimore school district, it would almost have to have been in someway marketed as The Wire related.


anyway, in the series they did just that.. instead of taking the best kids out of class and focusing on them, they took the worst kids and gave them more intensive training.. It worked out in the (fictional) show v🙂v

 
Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
This is a huge problem, and there is no good way to fix it. I occasionally work in a poor inner city area. The drop out rate is incredible, and the teachers get blamed. The cold facts are that the parents have no interest in education, and they raise their children to be the same.

The latest rap music is important. The best shoes are. Being cool, however that's defined. School? You're kidding, right?

So throw more money at it? When people refuse to be educated, educating them into believing education is good doesn't work.

If it were up to me, I'd start fixing the education issue by reforming welfare. The sense of entitlement is incredible in the real world.
Click to expand...

You are correct in the sense that one cannot educate those who do not wish to be educated.

However, we can make a difference by spending more money to increase the quality of the education for those who do wish to be educated. We would see much better teachers if they got paid more and were provided better materials, technology, and facilities for example. We would see more students who are willing to work hard for a degree in college if the expense of going to college was not so high. As an added bonus, if the expense of college was lower we would also see more college graduates enter the real world with less debt on their shoulders. These are a few areas which could really use some work and it would make a world of difference in terms of the quality of our education.
Click to expand...

Find and watch the HBO program I mentioned above, and you will see that the only way to give the good kids a chance is to segregate them from the bad kids, and all the bullshit PC arguments against it be damned. You cannot teach in a classroom where 90% of the kids are busy talking, fighting, and goofing off.
Click to expand...

As another poster mentioned above, those 90% cannot be ignored or else it will make this country even worse.

Regardless, the scenario where the vast majority of students are being disruptive and have no desire to learn are in a single classroom is just that...one scenario. There are plenty of other cases where what I am describing applies and it is well worth the money.
 
Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
How the respectable black community of the 50's and 60's that managed to spearhead the civil rights movement, and properly raise their kids as a family, degenerated into what it is today is beyond me, but it is disturbing.
Click to expand...


As near as I can tell, it happened something like this: The civil rights movement was going okay, but some black people thought that it wasn't moving fast enough or far enough towards equality. After MLK was killed, came the rise of the more militant black rights activists like the black panther party. They were willing to use violence in order to achieve their goals, but obviously this would not be tolerated. As the black panther leadership was killed off and the group broken up, groups of young black men turned away from civil rights and community activism and towards gang banging. This was relayed to me by someone who was there by the way.

So slow moving civil rights movement leads to militant black power movement which is broken up by The Man? which leads to young black men turning to gangs without real leadership which leads to the decay of black communities out of which spawns rap music which white youths embrace which leads to the generally shitty state that americas youth is in today.


Fucked up innit?
Click to expand...


I think I'd disagree about the genesis of gangs. I think if you look at any poor community on the planet you'll see gangs - even bigger and more violent ones than we see in the US. When you have large areas of generational poverty, engaging in illegal activity is highly profitable and easily accessible relative to other options. Hell I was just listening to NPR this morning and hearing about a gang in Juarez that had killed like 30 police officers so far this year. So yeah. It doesn't have anything to do with rap music or the waning civil rights movement in the 70's. Your friend that was there probably had some interesting experiences, but doesn't seem to understand the real forces at work.
 
Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
Originally posted by: Mxylplyx


Find and watch the HBO program I mentioned above, and you will see that the only way to give the good kids a chance is to segregate them from the bad kids, and all the bullshit PC arguments against it be damned. You cannot teach in a classroom where 90% of the kids are busy talking, fighting, and goofing off.
Click to expand...

Yea, but we can't just leave the 90% alone and forget about them. I guarantee they'll only grow to become a far more powerful, negative influence later on. Some sort of emergency, expensive, intervention needs to take place.

It feels like the HBO "documentary" you're talking about is actually the drama series, The Wire..which is fucking AWESOME by the way, highly recommended...

If it was a documentary about the baltimore school district, it would almost have to have been in someway marketed as The Wire related.


anyway, in the series they did just that.. instead of taking the best kids out of class and focusing on them, they took the worst kids and gave them more intensive training.. It worked out in the (fictional) show v🙂v
Click to expand...

I never suggested leaving them alone, but they should regardless be seperated from the good kids, or rather the good kids should be seperated from them. This should happen immediately while the endless studies take place as to how to deal with the bad kids, which is pointless because the bad kids are beyond the governments help.

 
I taught once and schools are horrible places. Teaching attracts an inferior sort of person, who mostly wants to compensate with a cozy job and people to look up to them. Education degrees are a joke and education depts are the ghettos of most colleges. A dead person could get an MA in education. The good teachers in a school can usually be numbered under a dozen. Sit in a teachers room with them and you realize how many of them hate kids and teaching. What excites them is talking about their investments and summer trip to Spain. The school psychologist is often the weirdest person in the building.

When I subbed I could hardly tell the diffference between the grades. It seemed like the same dead boring crap was being served up over and over. I don't even want to get into all the weird stuff they teach. They have to actually dumb kids down to an uncritical level to get them to accept all the rubbish and brainwashing. Of course the edgey kids liked being sent out of the room so there was no leverage with them.

Education has been run by the most inferior people (libs btw) - whose unions and political/financial considerations vastly exeed any concern for kids. Most teachers just put in time and try not to cause a fuss until retiring. It's a cargo cult where people are just going through the motions while talking a good game they never deliver on . It's true parents are the worst they have ever been and dont help their kids at home but the same "educators" dumbed them down first.
 
Butterbean I guarantee you that at the school you were at the school psychologist was not the weirdest person in the building.
 
This should be our #1 fear in this nation. Unfortunately, no one has the balls to really fix the problem. Instead, the politicians keep fighting on how to make public schools more of a social experiment.

My suggestions would be quite extreme:

1) Segregate schools by gender from 6th through 10th grades. (Kids would be in mixed gender classes from K-5th and 11-12th grades.)
2) Mandatory national uniform requirement (proven to calm kids down).
3) Really drug-free schools (no more Ritalin, etc).
4) Segregate high schools by ability (like in Germany). The smart kids would be grouped in a college preparatory track while the less intelligent kids would go to vocational schools, leading to apprenticeships, and finally certification.
5) Some sort of national HOPE Scholarship program. Kids that have a 3.0 GPA or higher go to public college/university without tuition. They would have to maintain a 3.0 or better to maintain scholarship.
6) School funding: no longer funded by local property taxes. All school funding would have to made more equal somehow.
7) Upon graduation, students would have to spend their "19th" year abroad doing humanitarian/Peace Corps work abroad (outside the USA).
8) Pay teachers a lot more...like $80K or more, but... 1) Teacher's Union goes bye bye, 2) Never be a convicted Sex Offender, 3) Receive a bonus if you worked in the "business" world for at least five years before becoming a teacher, 4) Receive pay increases based on student performance of The Exit Exam.
9) The Exit Exam = A series of 4 exams, each 3-4 hours in length, both oral and written, testing student skills on the 4 subjects of their choice. Each exam would contain elements pertaining to both state and federal education standards. This test would be both a high school exit and college entrance exam, thus replacing the SAT/ACT.
10) Kill ETS (Electronic Testing Services).
11) Depending on the number of students who pass The Exit Exam, teachers receive a promotion (or demotion).
12) Eliminate day care services at school. Sex/Drug education would be provided at the 6th and 9th grades. Condoms and birth control pills provided for free from 9th grade onwards.
13) All students would have to memorize The Constitution/Bill of Rights AND know how to 1) Balance a Checkbook, 2) Understand credit/credit cards and how they work, and 3) Know how to complete a 1040 form without help. (The latter of course exposing them to the evils of taxation.)
 
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