U.S. decline, China's ascension

sunzt

Diamond Member
Nov 27, 2003
3,076
3
81
Over the past 7 yrs or so, there's been lots of talk about China overtaking the US this century in terms of world influnence/importance and it looks like the nay-sayers are in for surprise. The financial crisis of '08 seems to have accelerated or maybe even the catalyst for the decline of US power/influence in this new century. Then again, these are economists talking ....

Economists foretell of U.S. decline, China's ascension

By Mark Felsenthal

DENVER (Reuters) - To hear a number of prominent economists tell it, it doesn't look good for the U.S. economy, not this year, not in 10 years.

Leading thinkers in the dismal science speaking at an annual convention offered varying visions of U.S. economic decline, in the short, medium and long term. This year, the recovery may bog down as government stimulus measures dry up.

In the long run, the United States must face up to inevitably being overtaken by China as the world's largest economy. And it may have missed a chance to rein in its largest financial institutions, many of whom remain too big to fail and are getting bigger.

On the one hand, Harvard's Martin Feldstein said he believes the outlook for U.S. economic growth in 2011 is less sanguine than many believe.

First, the boost to growth from government spending will be drying up this year, he said. Renewal of expiring tax cuts is no more than a decision not to raise taxes, and the impact of one-year payroll tax cut is likely modest, he said.

"There's really not much help coming from fiscal policy in the year ahead," he said. Woes from the dire situations of state and local governments may actually be a drag on growth, he said.

Growth got a lift from a lower saving rate in 2010, but that probably will not last this year as households worried about an uncertain future return to paring back debt and socking more away, Feldstein added. Discouraging declines in home values mean there is less to save from, he said.

"People are worried, so there's a strong reason for precautionary saving," he said.

THE RACE IS ON

On the other hand, there is the race with China and the dynamic Asian economies, including India. Most estimates put the size of the Chinese economy on par with the United States by the early 2020s, said Dale Jorgenson, also of Harvard.

Jorgenson sees Asian emerging markets as the most dynamic in the world, eclipsing other emerging market contenders such as Brazil and Russia with steady growth over the next decade.

"The rise of developing Asia is going to accompany slower world economic growth," he said.

The United States will need to come to terms with the fact that its prevalence in the world is fated to come to an end, Jorgenson said. This will be difficult for many Americans to swallow and the United States should brace for social unrest amid blame over who was responsible for squandering global primacy, he said.

MIT's Simon Johnson put it more bluntly, saying the damage from the financial crisis and its aftermath have dealt U.S. prominence a permanent blow.

"The age of American predominance is over," he told a panel. "The (Chinese) Yuan will be the world's reserve currency within two decades."

Johnson said he believes the United States has failed to learn its lesson from the financial crisis and continues to implicitly back its largest financial institutions.

"I'm concerned about the excessive power of the largest global banks," he said. "Who are the government-sponsored enterprises now? It's the six biggest bank holding companies."

To be sure, Raghuram Rajan, a former IMF chief economist now with the University of Chicago's Booth School of Business, could still envision an ongoing U.S. leadership role.

Nothing proceeds in a straight line, he said, and there are many pitfalls along the way even for dynamic Asian economies.

"I would say the age of American dominance may be nearing an end. But America as the biggest mover will be in place for a long time," he said.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
I wish the US government was as aggressive as China and all the other Asian countries in promoting/protecting our economic development, rather than having the oligarchs (and the libertarians/conservatives who cheer them on) destroy our middle class.

Asian Pragmatisim > Free Market/Free trade retardation that American conservatives cheer for.

America needs an industrial policy.
 
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CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
I see Phokus mentioning "free market" in this thread, but anyone who has been paying any attention for the last 10 years (if not longer) and read the article knows that our fiscal policy is anything but "free market." "Too big to fail" and "bailout" aren't anywhere in the lexicon of any free-market manifesto I've ever read.
 
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Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
When do you think a country of 1.2 billion with hundreds of millions in poverty will pass us?

It's not a matter of passing us, it's a matter of the first generation in US history with the real possibility of living a lower standard of living than those before them...and who knows, maybe downhill from there. Keep ripping out the foundation and the building will eventually fall....

Can't keep building the country on bubbles....and people wonder why 50%+ of the people now fall below the income line to pay federal income taxes....?!?!
 
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Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
I see Phokus mentioning "free market" in this thread, but anyone who has been paying any attention for the last 10 years (if not longer) and read the article knows that our fiscal policy is anything but "free market." "Too big to fail" and "bailout" aren't anywhere in the lexicon of any free-market manifesto I've ever read.

The very reason why 'too big to fail' was a problem was SPECIFICALLY because it was a free market problem. Banks were allowed to overleverage themselves since there was no (or weak) government regulations stopping them from doing so and wall street was able to hold a gun to the collective heads of the government and every American. You had either 2 options a) Let the banks fail and take down the world economy or b) Pay off the banksters and keep the economy afloat.

Now contrast this with, say, Canadian banks which were heavily regulated and not allowed to leverage themselves like American banks and they also had MUCH stricter lending requirements than American banks. Their subprime problem was negligible.

In any case, the banks present a big problem for Americans because they rob us of our wealth, but the banking sector has little to nothing to do with the fact that not only is our industrial base being hollowed out, but now our white collar jobs in the service sector are being destroyed as well.
 
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dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
U.S. decline, China's ascension
Over the past 7 yrs or so, there's been lots of talk about China overtaking the US this century in terms of world influnence/importance and it looks like the nay-sayers are in for surprise. The financial crisis of '08 seems to have accelerated or maybe even the catalyst for the decline of US power/influence in this new century. Then again, these are economists talking ....

Will never happen according to the P&N experts
 

DesiPower

Lifer
Nov 22, 2008
15,299
740
126
I wish the US government was as aggressive as China and all the other Asian countries in promoting/protecting our economic development, rather than having the oligarchs (and the libertarians/conservatives who cheer them on) destroy our middle class.

Asian Pragmatisim > Free Market/Free trade retardation that American conservatives cheer for.

America needs an industrial policy.

You cannot do that in democracy.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
Chinese people work hard and save money. Americans don't. China doesn't have 800 military installations around the world and doesn't spend $1 trillion annually on a foreign policy. China has problems, and will have problems. But they can afford to. We're a problem away from disaster.
 

sunzt

Diamond Member
Nov 27, 2003
3,076
3
81
Chinese people work hard and save money. Americans don't. China doesn't have 800 military installations around the world and doesn't spend $1 trillion annually on a foreign policy. China has problems, and will have problems. But they can afford to. We're a problem away from disaster.

This^
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Meh while we had some crappy planning the last 30 years I think people will wake up when debt can't maintain illusions how far we have fallen and we'll get back to basics what made us great. China has some serious issues like needing the world for trade. Like zero political freedoms and police state. Environmental nightmares. Like holding debt.... when you owe a million dollars it's your problem when you owe 14 Trillion it's the banks problem, in this case china. The transition will be painful for us but we'll come out on top.
 
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nyker96

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2005
5,630
2
81
Now contrast this with, say, Canadian banks which were heavily regulated and not allowed to leverage themselves like American banks and they also had MUCH stricter lending requirements than American banks. Their subprime problem was negligible.

I did a little search on this and it looks like Canadians did experience a lot less subprime problems. But ... as you know no risk, no pay in finances. They may take less risks but they also don't make as much money when the market is booming.

One thing I don't get is that, if the economists are so bright, why don't they write a proposal of how to solve these problems instead of make gloomy predictions all day like that's going to help anyone. Ok, so we took hits on banks, now what should be do. I mean economy is NOT an inanimate object it CAN be changed in case people forget!! If we can go from good->bad, why isn't it possible to go from bad->good? I don't see why not.

So I say to these economists who has nice paying jobs, GET TO WORK AND FIX THIS DON"T JUST GET PAID FOR SAYING DEPRESSING THINGS!!
 
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