U.S. Allowing Funds to Religious Groups

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
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U.S. Allowing Funds to Religious Groups - AP via Yahoo

"Four government regulations completed on Monday and a half-dozen more in the works will provide federal money for religion-oriented programs run by people President Bush (news - web sites) has dubbed America's "neighborhood healers."

Cabinet members met with the president at the White House to discuss ways agencies are eliminating barriers that have kept "faith-based" groups from obtaining federal grants to help people in need."

So what do y'all think?
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
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I really don't see how the government will prevent religious discrimination? How will they balance the funds between all religions equitably? Personally, I think there are plenty of secular "neighborhood healers" available to give money to. Funding religious groups, regardless of the reasons, seems like an unnecessary entangling of gov't and religion.
 

Warin

Senior member
Sep 6, 2001
270
0
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Wow. Amazing.

It's ok to cut funding to groups that provide vital services in Africa because they may also mention abortion..

And it's also ok to give money to religious groups pushing their own agenda, because they are Christian? Greeeeaaaaaaat!
rolleye.gif


So for every dollar given to a Christian organization, I can expect to see a dollar go to any other religious group (Jewish, Islamic, Buddhist) who wants the same kind of funds? Or am I being a little too optomistic.

 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,938
6
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Originally posted by: Warin
Wow. Amazing.

It's ok to cut funding to groups that provide vital services in Africa because they may also mention abortion..

And it's also ok to give money to religious groups pushing their own agenda, because they are Christian? Greeeeaaaaaaat!
rolleye.gif


So for every dollar given to a Christian organization, I can expect to see a dollar go to any other religious group (Jewish, Islamic, Buddhist) who wants the same kind of funds? Or am I being a little too optomistic.

You're being optimistic ;)
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
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91
It's ok to cut funding to groups that provide vital services in Africa because they may also mention abortion..

My thought exactly, it should go both ways. If we can't help fund charities because their services may entail abortion and that may offend the sensibilities of some of those who pay taxes, then the same should be true in all cases, regardless of whom might be offended at where their tax dollar is going.

Personally I think the government should stay completely out of the charity business.............
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
29,249
41,396
136
Yet another reason why we need an administration that can check their religious subscription at the White House door.
 

digitalsm

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2003
5,253
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Originally posted by: Lonyo
Seperation of Church and State? Where did that go?

There is no seperation of Church and State in the US Constitution. Nor is it implied. Yes is was implied in other historical documents, but it never made the cut in the US Constitution.

The US Constitution says, Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

That right there does not say anything about the seperation of Church and State, yes it does restrain CONGRESS(you cant interpert it anyother way, CONGRESS is defined in the US Constitution), from passing some laws in regards to religion, but not all. It cant prohibit the free exercise of religion and it cant make a law respecting an establishment of religion.

The funding of these 21 charities, some of which are religious, others which are not, does not violate anything.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
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Originally posted by: digitalsm
Originally posted by: Lonyo
Seperation of Church and State? Where did that go?

There is no seperation of Church and State in the US Constitution. Nor is it implied. Yes is was implied in other historical documents, but it never made the cut in the US Constitution.

The US Constitution says, Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

That right there does not say anything about the seperation of Church and State, yes it does restrain CONGRESS(you cant interpert it anyother way, CONGRESS is defined in the US Constitution), from passing some laws in regards to religion, but not all. It cant prohibit the free exercise of religion and it cant make a law respecting an establishment of religion.

The funding of these 21 charities, some of which are religious, others which are not, does not violate anything.

Depends on how you interpret the word "establishment." That's the crux of it. The USSC has interpreted it to mean a number of things -- including that government should remain neutral with regards to religion. Giving religious charities tax-payer's money, is not remaining neutral IMO.
 

digitalsm

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2003
5,253
0
0
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: digitalsm
Originally posted by: Lonyo
Seperation of Church and State? Where did that go?

There is no seperation of Church and State in the US Constitution. Nor is it implied. Yes is was implied in other historical documents, but it never made the cut in the US Constitution.

The US Constitution says, Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

That right there does not say anything about the seperation of Church and State, yes it does restrain CONGRESS(you cant interpert it anyother way, CONGRESS is defined in the US Constitution), from passing some laws in regards to religion, but not all. It cant prohibit the free exercise of religion and it cant make a law respecting an establishment of religion.

The funding of these 21 charities, some of which are religious, others which are not, does not violate anything.

Depends on how you interpret the word "establishment." That's the crux of it. The USSC has interpreted it to mean a number of things -- including that government should remain neutral with regards to religion. Giving religious charities tax-payer's money, is not remaining neutral IMO.


Yes and again, it explictly STATES CONGRESS. This was NOT CONGRESS. Its was an executive order. Giving tax payer money to many different religiou groups, could also be considered neutral.

 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
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Yes, when Congress balked at the whole idea of "faith based initiatives," Bush did an end-run around Congress to get what he wanted:

The president has long pushed to let religious groups compete for government money, so long as their services are available to anybody in need. Opponents fear the government would wind up paying for religion. They also object to allowing taxpayer-funded groups to hire and fire based on religious persuasion.

When his initiative stalled in Congress amid this controversy, Bush sidestepped lawmakers with executive orders and regulations to give religious organizations equal footing with nonsectarian ones in competing for federal contracts.

Nice.
rolleye.gif
I guess as usual, the ends justify the means. The entire problem is that there's no way to ensure government neutrality. There's no inherent accountability to ensure that one religion isn't funded to the exclusion of others.
 

digitalsm

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2003
5,253
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Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Yes, when Congress balked at the whole idea of "faith based initiatives," Bush did an end-run around Congress to get what he wanted:

The president has long pushed to let religious groups compete for government money, so long as their services are available to anybody in need. Opponents fear the government would wind up paying for religion. They also object to allowing taxpayer-funded groups to hire and fire based on religious persuasion.

When his initiative stalled in Congress amid this controversy, Bush sidestepped lawmakers with executive orders and regulations to give religious organizations equal footing with nonsectarian ones in competing for federal contracts.

Nice.
rolleye.gif
I guess as usual, the ends justify the means. The entire problem is that there's no way to ensure government neutrality. There's no inherent accountability to ensure that one religion isn't funded to the exclusion of others.

Ever since Presidents have been allowed executive orders, they have done so. Pointing fingers at Bush because of doing an "end around congress" is stupid, every president does it.
 

Insomniak

Banned
Sep 11, 2003
4,836
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I'm a firm believer in seperation of church and state, and this is disgraceful. Religion should not be allowed contact with politics in any way (in a perfect world anyway). You want to see what a great Job religion does when it worms its way into the lawbooks, just look at the Taliban.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,631
394
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I really don't see how the government will prevent religious discrimination? How will they balance the funds between all religions equitably? Personally, I think there are plenty of secular "neighborhood healers" available to give money to. Funding religious groups, regardless of the reasons, seems like an unnecessary entangling of gov't and religion.
Its not a matter of 'balancing funds between all religions equitably'. The issue is whether the First Amendment mandates the government to discriminate against a charitable organization by excluding it from access to public grants for which its services would qualify but for the basis of religious affiliation, regardless of how well they separate their charitable activities from their religious activities.

Everson v. Board of Education ruled it was not a violation of separation of church and state for the State of New Jersey or local school boards to bus children to Catholic schools using public dollars, even if it gave the appearance of 'supporting' or 'facilitating' attendance of these religious schools.

In fact, Everson went as far as to imply that it would be unconstitutional for government to exclude or deny any person, persons, or organizations from receiving the full benefit of any publicly funded services rendered in support of the general welfare, which would included public grants, on the basis of religion.

For instance, Catholic schools could not be denied the benefits of public police protection in the event that some deranged man appeared at the school with a gun.

By the misreading of the First Amendment by atheists, churches should be forced to fend for themselves in the event of a fire or emergency, because it could be reasoned that using public monies to protect a church or church-goers violates the separation of church and state. Catholic schools could not be permitted to utilize or benefit from any public services for which taxes are levied to support. Police would have to ignore the safety and well-being of children walking to a Catholic school lest it be construed that tax dollars are being used to aid and abet the attendance of a religious institution.

If public grants are created pursuant to the general welfare interest of the state and certain public interest causes are targeted to be supported or promoted by those grants, would it not be a violation of both equal protection and the First Amendment to discriminate against a charitable organization by excluding it from access to public grants for which its services would qualify but for religious affiliation, regardless of how well they separate their charitable activities from their religious activities?

As Everson put it: "That Amendment requires the state to be a neutral in its relations with groups of religious believers and nonbelievers; it does not require the state to be their adversary. State power is no more to be used so as to handicap religions than it is to favor them."
 

XZeroII

Lifer
Jun 30, 2001
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Originally posted by: rchiu
More handout before the big election year. What a surprise!!

No kidding. As if giving cigs to people wasn't bad enough...oh wait, that was the democrats...
 

Drift3r

Guest
Jun 3, 2003
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Religous Welfare IMHO. I hope they start letting gays get married in their churches if they want my tax money otherwise they can screw off. If they want free hand outs then they need to put up with the federal laws just like any other program or organizations.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,631
394
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The Catholic Church is the largest private not-for-profit provider of health care in the United States. I worked at a Catholic Medical Center for over two years.

I am not Catholic. I have never been Catholic. I was never even asked if I was, or had ever been, or desired to be, Catholic. When we wheeled patients into surgery, we did not proclaim "No heart surgery for you!" because the patient told us he wasn't Catholic. Their religion was never discussed, nor was health care conditioned upon their religion.

All patients received the same quality of care and dignified treatment according to the accepted doctrines of patient care, not the doctrines of the Catholic religion (which BTW demand that all persons be treated with the same dignity and compassion regardless of their religous faith). No Nuns snuck around fastening The Rosary to patient's while they slept, no Priests went around demanding confession before they could receive pain medications.

The Catholic Church probably provides more uncompensated charitable health care to the indigent and poor than all other health care providers combined. I've never seen or known of a Catholic hospital that wasn't the de facto provider of health services to that community's poor and indigent, none of which is conditioned upon one's religious beliefs.

It makes no more sense (constitutional or otherwise) to deny public funding to charitable services on the basis of religious affiliation than it would to deny Medicare reimbursement to a hospital on the basis the hospital was affiliated with a church.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: digitalsm
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Yes, when Congress balked at the whole idea of "faith based initiatives," Bush did an end-run around Congress to get what he wanted:

The president has long pushed to let religious groups compete for government money, so long as their services are available to anybody in need. Opponents fear the government would wind up paying for religion. They also object to allowing taxpayer-funded groups to hire and fire based on religious persuasion.

When his initiative stalled in Congress amid this controversy, Bush sidestepped lawmakers with executive orders and regulations to give religious organizations equal footing with nonsectarian ones in competing for federal contracts.

Nice.
rolleye.gif
I guess as usual, the ends justify the means. The entire problem is that there's no way to ensure government neutrality. There's no inherent accountability to ensure that one religion isn't funded to the exclusion of others.

Ever since Presidents have been allowed executive orders, they have done so. Pointing fingers at Bush because of doing an "end around congress" is stupid, every president does it.
And I'll be just as quick to point fingers at them. Justifying Bush's malfeasance because "every president does it" is what's stupid. That's a lesson most of us learned in grade school.


 

digitalsm

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2003
5,253
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0
Originally posted by: Drift3r
Religous Welfare IMHO. I hope they start letting gays get married in their churches if they want my tax money otherwise they can screw off. If they want free hand outs then they need to put up with the federal laws just like any other program or organizations.

How is this religious welfare? 21 charities, less than half of which are religious are getting funding. Do you see the word CHARITY? This is for CHARITY. And whos to say these religious charities are aligned to a specific church. Its not like this money is to line the coffers of a church. Its going to organizations that do good in their communities.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
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I'd like to point out that religious charities were and are used by terrorists to fund money. Hmmmmm, I guess religious charities never get used for extremist causes, hmmmmmmm? Did you know that Catholic hospitals if faced with a situation where they could save the pregnant mother OR the unborn child will choose to save the unborn child at the expense of the mother. Hmmmm, I wonder if the patients might like that better in the reverse?

I love how some people get so indignant about religious charities -- "Oh! They're so discriminated against just because they're religious. They're blocked from federal funds. Oh the humanity!" Please. That's why they have tax-exempt status. You don't see the rest of us whining about that. All that money they suck out of their parishioners is tax-free. Pass the plate dear, we need to add another wing to the church.
rolleye.gif
 

Insomniak

Banned
Sep 11, 2003
4,836
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Originally posted by: DealMonkey
I'd like to point out that religious charities were and are used by terrorists to fund money.

Religion is the leading cause of death throughout history. As George Carlin put it:

"You believe in God?"
"No."
BAM! Dead.

"You believe in God?"
"Yes."
"You believe in my God?"
"No."
BAM! Dead.

I'll bite my tongue before I get on a rant some might find offensive.