U-571 - Too far IMO!

Dougster

Senior member
Dec 14, 1999
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Did you know that in a survey in American high schools across the country, over 45% of participants thought it was Kennedy who led the Americans in WW2. 50% didn't know how long WW2 lasted, let alone give the years of the start and finish of the war. A very high number (I can't remember so I won't guess) got Lenin and Stalin mixed up or thought they were one and the same. At the start of the Kosovo crisis, a street survey was undertaken, and only ~20% of people got the correct continent when asked to point out Yugoslavia on the world map.

What I want to know is, how may Americans are going to believe that it was an American crew who stole the Enigma machine off the German U-boat, as seen in U-571? In what was considered to be the single most important enforced event of the war, how many people are going to be mislead by what are presented as facts, when such a large number of people don't know that many facts about the war in the first place.

I don't mind historical inaccuracy (at all) in order to get a good film (e.g. Braveheart), but such misrepresentation of the truth pisses me, especially when I know people who lost friends on that very mission. It does their memories no justice IMHO. I can't see how making the crew American adds to the film, or is it really true that the American public are only interested in American characters. That's what the director thinks (Jonathan Mostow), quoting "No-one ever lost money underestimating the intelligence of the American public". In my opinion, the American public aren't this shallow, though if I am wrong it is a sad thing indeed.

I got my figures from a British TV show, however the surveys were all carried out by Americans. I'm about to go to bed now, and I won't be able to check this message for about 15 hours. I expect a lively discussion of SOME kind when I get back. If you post something in disagreement to me, don't expect a quick response!

I'm not trying to attack Americans here, just the film makers. The first paragraph was simply to point out the potential of the harm that could be done. Take into account that this survey was probably taken across all economical and social groupings. The fact that you are posting on this board probably greatly reduces your chances of you being one of the people who would make such mistakes, so "Everyone I know knows when the war started, those stats are BullSh*t" posts, may go unanswered by me, as it's hardly the point anyway.
 

drboogie

Banned
Jun 9, 2000
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The History Channel ran a very good special right before this movie came out. Two historians went through the movie giving the historical perspective of the events. I don't know if it is still running, but if you catch it on again, it's well worth the watch.
 

Doomer

Diamond Member
Dec 5, 1999
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In the words of Johnny Cash "What is truth"

We Americans live in a fantasy land where we pick whatever "truth" suits us best. It's a luxury, I suppose. :p
 

Brooks

Banned
Oct 9, 1999
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Your history is better than mine - thankfully my ignorance allowed me to enjoy the movie.

However, my ignorance did not go so far to believe that a depth charge exploding 15 feet from the hull of an already severely damaged submarine is not going to blow the thing to hell! Good movie though :)
 

P.O.W.

Senior member
Feb 8, 2000
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Well its all about $$$ not about history I'm afraid. Hollywood does not care about historical accuracy. A movie gets put together based on what the bean counters think will sucker in the most people. In this case Matthew McCougnehey (something or other).
 

Dougster

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Dec 14, 1999
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This is weird, I did a full search for "U-571" (Any and Exact Words), and I only threw up http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=38&threadid=179028!

It was OT in that thread, so I didn't want to post in there. I also have not been visiting these forums for a while, so I didn't notice those Enigma threads when they were first posted.

I've had a feeling that the search option wasn't working properly for a while now.

Just out of interest, how many of you here think you would be less likely to see a film, if you knew it had British characters in leading roles?
 

Brooks

Banned
Oct 9, 1999
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dougster

Brit actors in leading roles doesn't bother or affect me in the least. I like a few foreigners in my films as either a big bad guy, or a big tough good guy, it kind of adds flavor to a movie.
 

Dougster

Senior member
Dec 14, 1999
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Brooks,

That's exactly what I would have expected from most people. I guess Hollywood's just applying its self to the lowest denominator. I know that Americans generally respect someone's right to historical remembrance, it's just a shame that Hollywood didn't in this case.

On another note, I've had a nasty e-mail from some unknown (they used a remailer, cowards) claiming I'm some sort of British elitist. I'm sure that if I had the money to make a film about the battle of Midway with the British discovering and sinking the Japanese carriers, I'd get my fair share of angered Americans on my back, whether they were elitist or otherwise.
 

Dougster

Senior member
Dec 14, 1999
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It's not the movie I'm worried about, it's the real life people who made the initial acts during the war. Many of them are still alive today, and in my opinion this shows a great lack of respect to their efforts, and to those who died.

If you had relatives in any war, and I discounted or trivialised their bravery would you be happy?

Like I said, I have no problem with historical inaccuracy in a film, but this isn't inaccuracy, it's deceptive fallacy.

On a other note, the dickhead who is sending me these offensive letters using Mixmaster can FOAD! I'm quite happy to argue with people, what you are doing is cowardly and immoral. I'm deleting every mail! I can't see the problem with insulting me from your usual e-mail address, I'm not the sort to mail bomb those who disagree with me. Wanker.
 

Passions

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2000
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TRU DAT..TRU DAT..

If an american watches this movie and thinks it is for real, man what a sorry chap.
 

Dougster

Senior member
Dec 14, 1999
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But the sad thing is, I wouldn't blame "Joe American" for not knowing it was real, and at the end of the day, why should he/she care? After all, the only way you would know about the changes that have been made is to know the true story in the first place, which most won't.

It's the film makers I'm griping about, I just can't see the justification for what they have done. I know to many life revolves around the almighty $ and nothing else, but to me other things in life have equal importance, and respect for those who have helped to keep a nation free is way up there.
 

XMan

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
12,513
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I think the better question to be asked is what sort of people are basing their knowledge of history from popular film?

I'm sorry, I enjoyed "The Last of the Mohicans", but I don't take it for historical fact. The same goes for flicks like "Braveheart," "The Patriot," "U-571," "The Perfect Storm," "The Manhattan Project," "Fat Man and Little Boy," etc . . . the list of movies dramatized by Hollywood goes as far back as "The Green Berets," and "The Frogmen," and further . . . is "The Name of The Rose" a good example of a history of the Crusades Era? No, but it's entertaining. That's what movies are for - entertainment. Taking them for something else is a mistake.

EDIT

Forgot to add this . . . I know when I was in high school, we looked at standardized tests and surveys as an excuse to goof off. We most certainly did not take them seriously . . . I remember one time we were taking a survey on drug use in the senior class, and one of the most non-stonerish members of the class (but a goofball nonetheless ;)) proceeded to read the questions aloud and answer them aloud as he filled in the little dots. "When was the last time you used illegal drugs? This morning. Have you ever committed theft to fund your drug habit? Yes." and so on . . . some of us would make patterns with the little dots, some would fill in all Cs, some all As, etc. I would be surprised if this is the exception in most cases . . .
 

Dougster

Senior member
Dec 14, 1999
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You are getting two types of film mixed up here. Historical fiction where a fictional story is set in a historical setting. I presume that "The Last of the Mohicans" is an example of this (never seen it, D. Day Lewis isn't it?). This also applies to supposedly true tales that have become almost myths, and are now shrouded in inaccuracy.

On the other hand there are films that are not only written in a historical setting, they tell a true historical story. Now I have no objection to Hollywood changing the events in these stories to dramatise them, but when these stories are so key to a nation's recent history, and people who were in it are still alive today and these people roles are discounted, I find that offensive.

Now I have to admit that I haven't seen "U-571", just read an article on it and seen a short report on a program. The way it is presented, is it presented as a true story? Is there anything to make you realise that this isn't a real event carried out by Americans, and why should a person who doesn't know the truth think otherwise?

As for your highschool surveys, that may be so. However, on this program that I watched, they did a street survey of 200 people off the street with a video camera, asking how long they thought WW2 lasted. They showed about every 10th interview. Of the people asked, most had no idea and many gave ridiculous answers like "two months", and "20 years"! The program said that 30% of the people got the answer correct. These people weren't "goofing off", many were clearly embarrassed that they didn't know.

Please bear in mind that what these men did is widely considered to have shortened the war by a year, and saved perhaps millions of lives, many of which would have been American at this late stage of the game. These men are nothing short of national heroes, and IMHO this is not what they deserve!
 

XMan

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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Dougster,

Good points . . . the thing about the survey is kind of a trick question. It depends on whether you look at WW2 starting at Pearl Harbor, the German invasion of Poland, or the Japanese invasion of Manchuria. All are somewhat accurate historically . . .

Nowhere in U-571 does it say anything about being a true story . . . generally movies that do that are a bit more accurate . . . "The Perfect Storm" intimated that in the opening credits, and it was for the most part accurate save for the exact details of what happened on the Andrea Gail - nobody knows that. The only other movie I can think of at the moment that intimates that it is a true story is "The Ghost and The Darkness." And I'm pretty sure that was real because there are a couple of stuffed liongs in the Chicago Field Museum. ;)
 

Dougster

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Dec 14, 1999
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I see you point about the length of WW2, and I suppose it could also be said that it finished on VE or VJ day. However, believe me these people weren't getting it wrong because of the ambiguity of the question! :) No doubt it would have been "marked" correct if they had just said 5 years, they didn't have to give dates or anything.

OT: Just out of interest, if someone asked you the starting and finish dates of the war, what would you answer? Personally I would say Sept 1 1939 to Sept 2 1945. I don't think the crisis's like Abysinia (sp) and Manchuria are generally considered part of the war, and saying that WW2 started after Pearl Harbour is ridiculous :p. That's like denying there was fighting before Dec 7, 1941!

I don't think I'm going to post in this thread anymore, the expletive filled hassle I'm getting via a remailer off some dickhead isn't worth it. As I can't reply to him/her via mail, here's a response below as I know he/she reads this thread.

Whoever you are, I do realise that America "saved out butts" (as you put it) during WW2. However, they were fighting for themselves as much as anything else, it took Pearl Harbour to drag them in. "Fighting for a free world" was merely the propaganda the US government used to enlist troops, not the reason the USA joined. I might also add, that had France and the UK just rolled over and not put up a fight in the first place, there is no way on earth that the USA could of stood up to the combined might an industrialised Europe. We saved your butts just as much as you saved ours!
 

Looney

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
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I once met a guy that was CONVINCED that Einstein was an Australian who discovered the Theory of Relavity via brewery! He got that from that dumbass movie.
 

Thorn

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
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My grandfather was on the beach in Normandy during D-Day. How do you think he felt when he saw Saving Private Ryan? His exact words when we left the theater were, "that was total bull$#it".
 

RSI

Diamond Member
May 22, 2000
7,281
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<< Forgot to add this . . . I know when I was in high school, we looked at standardized tests and surveys as an excuse to goof off. We most certainly did not take them seriously . . . I remember one time we were taking a survey on drug use in the senior class, and one of the most non-stonerish members of the class (but a goofball nonetheless ) proceeded to read the questions aloud and answer them aloud as he filled in the little dots. &quot;When was the last time you used illegal drugs? This morning. Have you ever committed theft to fund your drug habit? Yes.&quot; and so on . . . some of us would make patterns with the little dots, some would fill in all Cs, some all As, etc. I would be surprised if this is the exception in most cases . . . >>

Xerox Man, you have an excellent point there. I never take surveys like that seriously (I'm still in high school in case you're wondering), and I am pretty certain that many or most other students are the same way in the matter. So sometimes it makes me wonder about some surveys...
 

Dougster

Senior member
Dec 14, 1999
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Thorn,

Yeah, but no doubt your grandfather would have felt worse if the movie had actually physically denied he was at D-Day at all.

RSI,

I know I open my initial argument with it, but the accuracy of that survey really has very little relevance. What I was saying (badly :)), is that changing the story like this is bad enough, however if we all knew that everyone really knew the real story, it wouldn't e so bad (!!!! I hope you see what I mean! :)). I was just trying to point out how many people don't know much about the war at all, let alone a specific story like this.
 

montanafan

Diamond Member
Nov 7, 1999
3,551
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Dougster, there was a bit of the same sort of discussion going on here: http://www.pcmech.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/001028-2.html

Thought you might be interested.

P.S. Another reason you don't get a more accurate result from those surveys is the fact that in the US, EVERY student takes the survey or the exam. That includes all the Special Education students no matter how low their IQ or how severe their learning disability. If they can't read, the Special Education teacher gives them the exam in a seperate room and reads the questions aloud, but the student marks the answers on their own.
 

Dougster

Senior member
Dec 14, 1999
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Wow, here in the UK I've been in education for 12 years and I've never been asked to complete any survey!

What's the idea behind them? What are they supposed to show?