Turns out it IS all the fault of the poor. Proof inside!

[konichiwa]

"my point is that anyone can get by working a cheapo job"

I encourage you to read Nickel and Dimed

 

[ReiAyanami]

c'mon, all we need now is a thread blaming the middle class.

The middle class make up the largest majority of the ppopulation so by random statistical analysis, it is probably their fault.

The middle class steals valuble resources from the upper class, while oppressing the lower class all at the same time, so its 2x their fault as opposed to the other two groups.

Who is directly above the poor? The middle class.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
c'mon, all we need now is a thread blaming the middle class.

The middle class make up the largest majority of the ppopulation so by random statistical analysis, it is probably their fault.

The middle class steals valuble resources from the upper class, while oppressing the lower class all at the same time, so its 2x their fault as opposed to the other two groups.

Who is directly above the poor? The middle class.

Wha...Whaa...What! It can't be my fault...It's "them"...it's "them" *points finger*



CkG

 

[kaizersose]

Originally posted by: konichiwa
It's pretty obtuse to say that the problems of the world can be blamed on poor people. Do you think they choose to be that way?

1.22 Billion people (yes, that's billion with a B) live on less than $1 per day. Per day. That's one in six people in the world.
2.8 Billion live on less than $2 per day. That's more than a third of the world's population. Can you imagine living on less than $2/day?

considering that there are only 6.2 billion people in the world right now, i find your statistics to be a bit off.

 

[kaizersose]

Originally posted by: kaizersose

Originally posted by: konichiwa
It's pretty obtuse to say that the problems of the world can be blamed on poor people. Do you think they choose to be that way?

1.22 Billion people (yes, that's billion with a B) live on less than $1 per day. Per day. That's one in six people in the world.
2.8 Billion live on less than $2 per day. That's more than a third of the world's population. Can you imagine living on less than $2/day?

considering that there are only 6.2 billion people in the world right now, i find your statistics to be a bit off.

edit: heh, my bad, i thought that was a list (ie: 1. item one 2. item two, etc.).

 

[Flyermax2k3]

Originally posted by: XZeroII

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: XZeroII

Originally posted by: rjain

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3
I sincerely hope you're being sarcastic. Otherwise you have some serious issues, lack of empathy for your fellow man being the primary among them.

Absolutely. Those who are blaming the ills of the world on those who provide serivce to those who need it also have serious issues.

I'm not being sarcastic. I'm showing you the real world. I never said that we should exterminate poor people or anything, but this is life. Tons of problems in our world are caused by the fact that there are poor people.
Look at a rich neighborhood once. It looks very nice. Look at an area with lots of poor people, it's usually a slum.

You are reading too much into what I'm saying. People who help others are good people. But this is the land of opportunity and no matter what anyone says, anyone can move ahead in this world. Everyone gets a free education (through HS). Then, even if you don't have any money, you can still go to college. Then you can get a decent job. Anyone can do it. The only way you can stay poor for a long time is if you resign yourself to it, and that causes problems. If it weren't for all those people, the world would be a better place (as I said in my original post).

You're right, poverty is a problem in the world we live in. In an ideal world there may or may not be poverty, and there may or may not even be money. What about people who are laid off from their jobs or are underpaid/undermployed? They go through college and rack up large amounts of debt, get out into the workforce and are underpaid/underemployed or even laid off. Where does that leave them? You can't tell me that someone who is laid off due to a poor economy or poor business planning is responsible for being poor. The same goes for those who are underpaid/underemployed. These people work hard all their lives only to have some greedy corporate entity tell them "you're not good enough" and are just barely able to make ends meet.

I can't think of many people who have gone through college (a good one, and actually worked hard) and are still poor unless they made some poor decisions in life (having a child too early, or something). Many people think you need a nice car, and need $100 shoes. This is not true and can cause a person to be poor. They rake up debt and don't manage their money well. Even a person who makes $7/hour makes $280 per week, thus $1120 per month. Gov't takes approx 10%, leaving $1008. Now lets say that person lives megerly and rents a single room apt. for $550 per month. That leaves $458. A person doesn't have to eat like a king, or go out all the time, so that person may spend $80 on food per month. $378 left. Utilities, $100. $278 left. Gas, 50. $228 left. Then look at other misc stuff and you'll see that you can live.

This is a person making a meager $7 per hour. If a person can live on $7/hour, there is no excuses. If you chose to have a child, then that's your responsibility (lets not get into rape and such). You should have thought of that before you had sex.

My point is that anyone can get by even working at a cheapo job. If you get layed off, there is even unemployment and other programs to help you get back on your feet. However, most poor people aren't poor simply because they lost their jobs. It's because they've resigned themselves to being poor. They made choices in life that put them there.

So because there are few examples you can think of in your life it must not happen? That's an extremely ignorant view to take... Look at the millions of jobs that have been lost since Dubya took office. Did those people have any control over the situation?
Your figures are *WAY* off too. Someone making $7 an hour (assuming they even can get 40 hours a week in this economy) doesn't take home anywhere near the amount of money you claim they do. While it's true 10% is the bottom federal income tax rung, you completely forgot about state/local tax, and FICA. People on the bottom rung have between 25-30% taken out of their paychecks.
Also, the examples you provide are unique to your area. Where I used to live, that take-home pay would barely cover the rent in cheap apartments in the "poor" part of town. What would one do to pay for utilities, food, clothing, transportation, medical bills, and any other expenses?

 

[dpm]

Originally posted by: XZeroII
If there weren't poor people, then everyone would have lots of money and be happy! The poor people suck up money from hard working people by way of welfare. They are more prone to criminal acts, thus increasing crime. They turn our beautiful cities into slums. Frickin' Poor People! It's all their fault.

Now, now - you are all thinking too parochially. The problem is simple - "it" is not the fault of the poor, nor the rich - "it" is the fault of people. Just get rid of all the people and we'd all be happy.

 

[rjain]

flyermax: where do you get the idea that people who are NOT RETIRED pay 25-30% of their income in aggregate taxes? And where are state and local taxes on a non-progressive scale and non-zero for the lowest bracket? The EIC probably pays for the state and local taxes in those peoples' cases anyway.

 

[gflores]

I saw something on 20/20 or Dateline that talked about the differences of poor people in India and America. People in India are extremely limited with lots of time, no drinkable water, malnutrition, close to nothing. While Americans are in poverty even though they have cable tv and money for cigarretes and beer, etc.

Are you guys generally talking about America or worldwide?

 

[Flyermax2k3]

Originally posted by: rjain
flyermax: where do you get the idea that people who are NOT RETIRED pay 25-30% of their income in aggregate taxes? And where are state and local taxes on a non-progressive scale and non-zero for the lowest bracket? The EIC probably pays for the state and local taxes in those peoples' cases anyway.

Um, because I have a job and I look at my paycheck... I am in that tax bracket, and 27% of my income goes to state, federal, and fica taxes every paycheck.

 

[rjain]

So your state taxes are over 20% of your income? Hah.

 

[rjain]

Originally posted by: gflores
I saw something on 20/20 or Dateline that talked about the differences of poor people in India and America. People in India are extremely limited with lots of time, no drinkable water, malnutrition, close to nothing. While Americans are in poverty even though they have cable tv and money for cigarretes and beer, etc.

Are you guys generally talking about America or worldwide?

In America of course. Where else could poor people afford to pay taxes in the first place?

 

[Flyermax2k3]

Originally posted by: rjain
So your state taxes are over 20% of your income? Hah.

Dude, you must not understand the way the income tax structure works... Federal = 10% (lowest bracket), FICA & state make up the other 17%. I'd scan my paycheck to show you the proof but quite frankly my earnings are none of your business.

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: konichiwa
"my point is that anyone can get by working a cheapo job"

I encourage you to read Nickel and Dimed

HAHA... Nickel and Dimed is a lousy book. Barbara Ehrenreich should have just called it "Nickel and Dimed: My Extremeley Biased Opinions on (Not) Getting By in America." She makes no attempt to truly understand the working poor in America, but rather rushes into an area, finds the lowest of the low, and points out their miserable state of life. Her entire "experiment" in social class is flawed by her inability to be intellectually honest. And yes, I have read the entire book. Not to mention, I have discussed it with Barbara herself.

 

[XZeroII]

Originally posted by: gflores
I saw something on 20/20 or Dateline that talked about the differences of poor people in India and America. People in India are extremely limited with lots of time, no drinkable water, malnutrition, close to nothing. While Americans are in poverty even though they have cable tv and money for cigarretes and beer, etc.

Are you guys generally talking about America or worldwide?

This is the most intelligent thing I've seen on this forum, EVER!

 

[rjain]

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: rjain
So your state taxes are over 20% of your income? Hah.

Dude, you must not understand the way the income tax structure works... Federal = 10% (lowest bracket), FICA & state make up the other 17%. I'd scan my paycheck to show you the proof but quite frankly my earnings are none of your business.

Sorry, I was mistaken in thinking that the bracket below $6,000 was 0% tax. That's actually the 10% bracket. But you also get taxes back for EIC, possibly more than you paid. That's the bonus you get for being of little value to our economy, I guess. FICA taxes are about 8% in total, and neither you nor I qualify for the limits on that.

There are also many deductions and credits that I, a middle class citizen, am almost to "rich" to qualify for, or qualify for less of because of my great "wealth". Granted, the reason why I save very little is that I spend most of my disposable income , but I don't clamor for government handouts in return :disgust:.

I'd be surprised if you really had to payout more of your income in sales and income taxes than I do. Since the tables of overall tax burden presented earlier include property taxes, I'd think that the wealthy retired skew those figures greatly. They only pay income taxes on their 401(k) and Standard IRA distributions, which they'll only take at the minimum level required. However, they probably own some expensive home in Florida and pay a large amount of property tax on that, relative to what a truely "poor" American could possibly afford to own. If we really want to "fix" that table, all we need to do is remove property taxation in Florida.

 

[Tom]

"Sorry, I was mistaken in thinking that the bracket below $6,000 was 0% tax. "

For most primary income earners I think you are correct given the standard deductions.

 

[bigdog1218]

Originally posted by: XZeroII

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3

Originally posted by: XZeroII

Originally posted by: rjain

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3
I sincerely hope you're being sarcastic. Otherwise you have some serious issues, lack of empathy for your fellow man being the primary among them.

Absolutely. Those who are blaming the ills of the world on those who provide serivce to those who need it also have serious issues.

I'm not being sarcastic. I'm showing you the real world. I never said that we should exterminate poor people or anything, but this is life. Tons of problems in our world are caused by the fact that there are poor people.
Look at a rich neighborhood once. It looks very nice. Look at an area with lots of poor people, it's usually a slum.

You are reading too much into what I'm saying. People who help others are good people. But this is the land of opportunity and no matter what anyone says, anyone can move ahead in this world. Everyone gets a free education (through HS). Then, even if you don't have any money, you can still go to college. Then you can get a decent job. Anyone can do it. The only way you can stay poor for a long time is if you resign yourself to it, and that causes problems. If it weren't for all those people, the world would be a better place (as I said in my original post).

You're right, poverty is a problem in the world we live in. In an ideal world there may or may not be poverty, and there may or may not even be money. What about people who are laid off from their jobs or are underpaid/undermployed? They go through college and rack up large amounts of debt, get out into the workforce and are underpaid/underemployed or even laid off. Where does that leave them? You can't tell me that someone who is laid off due to a poor economy or poor business planning is responsible for being poor. The same goes for those who are underpaid/underemployed. These people work hard all their lives only to have some greedy corporate entity tell them "you're not good enough" and are just barely able to make ends meet.

I can't think of many people who have gone through college (a good one, and actually worked hard) and are still poor unless they made some poor decisions in life (having a child too early, or something). Many people think you need a nice car, and need $100 shoes. This is not true and can cause a person to be poor. They rake up debt and don't manage their money well. Even a person who makes $7/hour makes $280 per week, thus $1120 per month. Gov't takes approx 10%, leaving $1008. Now lets say that person lives megerly and rents a single room apt. for $550 per month. That leaves $458. A person doesn't have to eat like a king, or go out all the time, so that person may spend $80 on food per month. $378 left. Utilities, $100. $278 left. Gas, 50. $228 left. Then look at other misc stuff and you'll see that you can live.

This is a person making a meager $7 per hour. If a person can live on $7/hour, there is no excuses. If you chose to have a child, then that's your responsibility (lets not get into rape and such). You should have thought of that before you had sex.

My point is that anyone can get by even working at a cheapo job. If you get layed off, there is even unemployment and other programs to help you get back on your feet. However, most poor people aren't poor simply because they lost their jobs. It's because they've resigned themselves to being poor. They made choices in life that put them there.

Wow. You are serious about that aren't you. Imagine if you didn't have mommy and daddy wiping your ass your whole life, I would love to see you live off $7 an hour. And I love your estimates, so if your poor you can never have friends, or go out, or eat out, or get married, or have kids. $80 a month for food? thats less than a dollar a meal. This is why there shouldn't be poor people, because I gurantee there are plenty of poor people that aren't as ignorant and sheltered as you.

 

[rjain]

Less than a dollar a meal is perfectly doable. You might have to actually get off your ass and cook for a change. You can actually get friends without having to give them money. You can get married without a huge amount of money. Now who's sheltered? With mommy and daddy wiping your ass your whole life, I can see how you'd be shocked that people can actually live like that. My parents lived on cinder blocks in their first apartment. They gave me italian-made chairs (reduced 90% ) for my first apartment. I'd be happy living on cinder blocks, tho. Actually, I'm a bit peeved that my parents paid for the chairs from their own money. I was happy with the old chairs they were going to throw away, anyway, but they took those dirty old things and threw them away. Oh well.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: rjain
Less than a dollar a meal is perfectly doable. You might have to actually get off your ass and cook for a change. You can actually get friends without having to give them money. You can get married without a huge amount of money. Now who's sheltered? With mommy and daddy wiping your ass your whole life, I can see how you'd be shocked that people can actually live like that. My parents lived on cinder blocks in their first apartment. They gave me italian-made chairs (reduced 90% ) for my first apartment. I'd be happy living on cinder blocks, tho. Actually, I'm a bit peeved that my parents paid for the chairs from their own money. I was happy with the old chairs they were going to throw away, anyway, but they took those dirty old things and threw them away. Oh well.

Exactly - I've been there and done that Got married, had a child - made about 6.50 working at the local metal fab shop.(middle of the sticks in Wisconsin). We survived though - it can be done. It was tough with Rent at about $500 plus utils, but we always managed to have food on the table. It sucked and I don't wish it on anyone but it CAN be done, but obviously no one wants to do it We had many freinds and did enough things to keep us busy so we didn't go insane from being poor Oh, and yes my parents were pretty well off(not rich by any stretch though) and they helped out a couple times when things got really really rough but for the most part they wanted us to be able to take care of ourselves - which is what we have done.

CkG

 

[rjain]

CAD: You were poor AND people would be your friends? Wow. Maybe you can give bigdog some pointers.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: rjain
CAD: You were poor AND people would be your friends? Wow. Maybe you can give bigdog some pointers.

Still am relatively "poor"(as in still live paycheck to paycheck) as I now have 2 kids It's just not quite as difficult now since we both know we COULD survive on very little if the situation presented itself.

CkG

 

[XZeroII]

Originally posted by: rjain
Less than a dollar a meal is perfectly doable. You might have to actually get off your ass and cook for a change. You can actually get friends without having to give them money. You can get married without a huge amount of money. Now who's sheltered? With mommy and daddy wiping your ass your whole life, I can see how you'd be shocked that people can actually live like that. My parents lived on cinder blocks in their first apartment. They gave me italian-made chairs (reduced 90% ) for my first apartment. I'd be happy living on cinder blocks, tho. Actually, I'm a bit peeved that my parents paid for the chairs from their own money. I was happy with the old chairs they were going to throw away, anyway, but they took those dirty old things and threw them away. Oh well.

This is my point. You can live, but you will have to live without all the luxuries in life and that is where Americans just don't get it. They think they NEED cable TV. They think they NEED to wash their car every week. They think they NEED hamburgers or steak every other night. This is not the case. bigdog1218: You seem to be the ignorant one. If you think you need money to have friends, you have some crappy friends. Also, if you're poor YOU DON'T GO OUT. That's right. You save your money. Hang out at friend's houses or have them at your house. If they know you don't have much money, they shouldn't make an issue out of you not having beer to supply them or something. If they do, they aren't good friends.

Once again, you can live on $7/hour, but it's tough.

 

[rjain]

Forget about just hamburgers or steak. They need a 6-pack of beer and a pack of smokes with that.